prufrock
06/25/05 12:54 AM
Adam, I think it is good that you have responded to this thread.
I am not sure that you are putting many people's minds at ease, however. The semantics game you have woven around MOC vs. Factory Sealed is not, in my opinion, in keeping with what I thought was the spirit of a community like Rebelscum.
I sense that, if this were an uninformed seller passing this off on ebay, people would have raised their eyebrows but let it slide. But a long time member of a community surely can't claim ignorance on an item like that. More than just the 1"x1" at the bottom is misalligned. I suspect you could have sold it as simply a rare cardback and made good money that way.
The ebay model seems to be "caveat emptor"; it should not be the motto of a serious collector.
Shawn
WiredMike
06/25/05 01:07 AM
Adam_Lovera wrote:
this Greedo piece does look to be 100% real(no repro items associated with the bubble/card/figure/etc.) , the question of how it is sealed on to the card is another question altogether.
Another question altogether? Man you have a way with words, I wold go on but Shawn has already said what I wanted to alot nicer then I would have.
Adam_Lovera
06/25/05 01:13 AM
wookiemonster wrote:
Sorry for not stating it properly, I did not know who the seller was before the auction, however I did know long before I sent the money order.
I never did receive a response to my request for a partial refund, I am not saying you did not send one, but I never received one.
Randy
Not to worry Randy,
We exchanged 2 emails, that involved talk about a "partial refund" , and at the end of it... I asked you "how much of a partial refund ???" .......... and you never replyed back to me - so I figured you no longer wanted any kind of partial refund. That was like early May.... about 7 weeks ago. I'm not about "ill communication" , however I dont mind sending more pictures... etc etc. if this helps with a buyer deciding if a piece is for them, or not.
Then I get this tread started by a possible "disgruntled" Mike ........ trying to crap on my selling parade, and question my motivations on this "Greed-O" situation.
If any of you in Rebelscum or Ebay-land think that I as a seller/ or buyer am "perfect" , I'm not(and this is no excuse either, just stating the facts.
I personally like to use the MOC , MONMC, MOMC(at least AFA 85 or better), Factory sealed, MISB, MIB, etc. etc. designations to the hilt. Its all about describing items to the best of your ability....... , pictures do help , but ideally buying something in person is the ideal. SEE, many people like to bash AFA for different reasons... however they are the #1 outfit in town that "authenticates" pieces.. thats there #1 positive A+++++++ contribution. Maybe if this piece would have been AFA'd long ago(ohhh , but wait... many collectors who buy harder to find/foreign pieces dont necessarily care if a piece is AFA graded... nor want to dish out the dough to get it done) , this Greedo mess would not have escaladed as high as it has thus far :/
Adam_Lovera
06/25/05 01:32 AM
this was not origionally posted:
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2475&item=5981716152&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
Same pictures as my effort ....... and a "as it may be a reseal" wording , but not 100% absolute reseal statement. Also, a MOC heading ..... :o ........ Tommy, where are you now :?
Again, after dealing with Mike.... I was not going to offer it hear on Rebelscum(yes, believe it or not... there is a big part of me looking out for the community) , and I instead listed it on Ebay(open to US or Canada bidders only). One persons Trash... is another persons Treasure... even/especially on Ebay. Shucks, I've sold used bicycle tires on Ebay... with 800-1000 miles on them , for about 1/3 retail... and yes fully disclosed these facts to the bidders, w/pictures :/ :o
Dave
06/25/05 03:05 AM
Adam_Lovera wrote:
One persons Trash... is another persons Treasure...
Well, I was the high bidder (though reserve was not met) and you are right, one person's garbage is another's treasure... I bid knowing that it was possibly a reseal, but that statement hardly makes up for the deception... Keep in mind that CND stuff is very hard to find, so it would have been worth $120 to some of us if the truth was disclosed from the git-go. I'd like to know how not offering it to forum members did anything to protect Randy? Putting something out on eBay in stead of selling it here does nothing to protect people in this community, and to suggest that it does makes no sense to me...
Tommy_Garvey
06/25/05 09:39 AM
Adam_Lovera wrote: Same pictures as my effort ....... and a "as it may be a reseal" wording , but not 100% absolute reseal statement. Also, a MOC heading ..... ........ Tommy, where are you now
No one will EVER be able to convince me that there is a difference between MOC, Original and Factory Sealed in this case. I don't care what auction claims it, there is no difference. Period.
Tommy
jedi5
06/25/05 10:18 AM
Tommy_Garvey wrote:
Adam_Lovera wrote:
Same pictures as my effort ....... and a "as it may be a reseal" wording , but not 100% absolute reseal statement. Also, a MOC heading ..... ........ Tommy, where are you now
No one will EVER be able to convince me that there is a difference between MOC, Original and Factory Sealed in this case. I don't care what auction claims it, there is no difference. Period.
Tommy
We all define MOC differently I guess.
Dave
06/25/05 11:13 AM
I think when a member of our community uses the term 'MOC' for something other than a factory sealed card is intentionally trying to be deceptive. WE all should know better. A reseal is a reseal, not MOC.
CanadianCollector
06/25/05 11:40 AM
Adam,
With the greatest of respect, you know that there was no way AFA would ever touch that piece.
Please tell me how you reconcile the fact that you describe how to make this exact recard in 2002, and yet come 2005 sell it as a MOC with a 1" piece reglued. It's blindingly obvious once you inspect it that that exact method you described was used to create the card. Word for word it matches exactly how the Greedo was reglued.
Who cares if the cardback is rare. I collect only ORIGINAL factory sealed MOC's. I've sent back other "one of a kind" items like my ESB Canadian Jawa that was a reseal when other collectors would have payed double for it. Don't assume that people want a home manufactured MOC just because the backer is rare.
So please, do us all a favour and tell us why after outlining how to make this recard in 2002, you failed to disclose that that was what you sold myself and then Randy in 2005.
I would encourage everyone to check their MOC's for this kind of reseal. It's hard to tell by the pictures, but the bubble sits 1 mm above the card because it was cut from a ROTJ or ESB damaged card and then glued directly onto a cardback. If the plastic isn't sitting flush with the cardback, you may have a recard.
-Michael
ChrisS
06/25/05 12:41 PM
Ya know I keep looking at this Greedo figure and it doesnt make sense, the top looks perfect, almost too perfect to be a sealed bubble glued onto a cardback, particularly given how glaring the bottom corner is off. Is it certain that this is a "re-paste," or is that STILL up for debate???
Chris
CanadianCollector
06/25/05 12:45 PM
Chris:
It is absolutely a repasted bubble with bubble backing.
What isn't seen in the pictures and wasn't disclosed until AFTER I had sent the money order was that there's a piece of card on the left side of the bubble that's sticking up as well.
The bubble is raised a uniform 1+mm off the cardback and you can see where it was trimmed around the edges.
-Mike
JamesF
06/25/05 12:45 PM
A resealed bubble regardless of exactly how much of the bubble has been resealed, still falls under the category of reseal. As a rule when / if selling such an item an indication of this should be made. *Resealed*, not MOC.
I personally have never bought the whole "MOC, section of bubble resealed". If its been resealed even slighty....that's what it is.
James.
WiredMike
06/25/05 12:47 PM
I think it was settled that it was a recard.
Matt_Yanders
06/25/05 12:50 PM
The whole thing looks wrong to me.
SW3packs
06/25/05 02:33 PM
ChrisS wrote:
Ya know I keep looking at this Greedo figure and it doesnt make sense, the top looks perfect, almost too perfect to be a sealed bubble glued onto a cardback, particularly given how glaring the bottom corner is off. Is it certain that this is a "re-paste," or is that STILL up for debate???
Chris
Chris,
Look at the top left of the bubble area (if the picture was rotated properly). Neither border stripe lines up. Also, look at Greedo's picture closest to the bubble. It doesn't line up either.
Joe
Todd_Chamberlain
06/25/05 02:56 PM
Without trying to sort through all the issues here, all I'm going to comment on is that MOC has long been established within this hobby as meaning factory sealed. This has been almost universally accepted as the definition by the mainstream commmunity for at least 15 years, and while there have always been those who have tried to define it differently it's always caused problems for them.
Back in Toy Shop days Yankee Peddler tried to play with the MOC definition to mean a mint figure with some kind bubble attaching it to a card (leaving it open to after-market glue, staples, whatever). This caused a major backlash against him, and that was more than 10 years ago.
Todd
James_Gallo
06/25/05 02:59 PM
Well Like others have said I took one look at that first picture and knew it was not right. Nothing on the picture matches up and Greedo's ear tip appears to be missing.
It also seems like the bubbled figure was taken from a Star Wars card as that is the only way the the trim lines would match up.
I think all the auction descriptions were a bit vague.
My question to Adam L then is by your defination of MOC is a figure that is cut around the bubble but still sealed MOC, after all it is sealed and has part of the cardback?
I don't place guilt on anyone except for the people that didn't notice it was wrong right away. Also I don't think the reputation of a seller should defer people from asking questions. You want to be confident in what you buy so ask questions.
Just my 2 cents
James G
Adam_Lovera
06/25/05 03:57 PM
CanadianCollector wrote:
Adam,
Please tell me how you reconcile the fact that you describe how to make this exact recard in 2002, and yet come 2005 sell it as a MOC with a 1" piece reglued. It's blindingly obvious once you inspect it that that exact method you described was used to create the card. Word for word it matches exactly how the Greedo was reglued.
-Michael
Mike..
After I bought this piece... sometime in 2001 - and yes after inspecting it- looking for tears, etc. , I saw a Ebay seller from the UK selling a rare- Palitoy 12-back MOC figure..... and was questioning him about the package-bubble area, and later came to find out how he "resealed" the bubbled area back onto an origional cardback(it went for $75, instead of a factory sealed piece getting $400+, and from what he said was the bubble was not even 1mm above the cardback !). He broke down to me the method to his madness. Thats where that write up came from on that previous RS thread. In looking at this Greedo.... there was a small part of me that "considered" that this Greedo package went through the same "manufacturing process" .......... but could not say for sure, since I was not the origional owner from day 1.
James Gallo basically told it like it is....... 100% true about this whole MOC thing.
.... and Dave , your right........ by myself sticking that piece on Ebay... I was not in effect "helping to protect the SW collecting community.... at all". However, the way in which Mike and I ended the deal(with me refunding the large majority of the money back to him), then not even getting a follow up email stating that "hey Adam, got the money order in the mail ...... Thanks for understanding" , and basically just left the whole situation on a down-note ... I then decided to put the Greedo on Ebay(with the same exact pictures I sent Mike), and worded the auction in such a way not to necessarily "distract" potential buyers way from my auction..... and make it look appealing to the best of my ability..... without flat-out lying, or doing my best to "decieve" the Ebay croud. My aim was to "recoupe" the large majority of my money that I had into the piece.....
Would a piece, that is 80% factory sealed, but the bubble that has come unglued at the top of the bubble(so the figure could be touched by a very small object.... but definitly not removed) be considered MOC ? Personally, I'd say yes it is MOC....... since the FIGURE never left the bubble area, card, etc. .... but it is no 100% Factory sealed.
James_Gallo
06/25/05 04:07 PM
Adam
Quote:
James Gallo basically told it like it is....... 100% true about this whole MOC thing.
I don't follow with what this means, are you agreeing to my above defination of what MOC means??
I juat am not clear how your response relates to my post.
LMK James G
Adam_Lovera
06/25/05 04:31 PM
Basically everything, except for this:
"My question to Adam L then is by your defination of MOC is a figure that is cut around the bubble but still sealed MOC, after all it is sealed and has part of the cardback?"
Yes, to me "figure that is cut around the bubble but still sealed MOC, after all it is sealed and has part of the cardback" , that is definitly a definition..... however, to me there are MULTIPLE definitions as to what MOC could be. QUESTIONS.... QUESTIONS is what needs to be asked in order to find out if it is 100% factory sealed- maybe thats what I should have done 4 years ago.... with the orig. seller, but then again they could have told me anything.
"I don't place guilt on anyone except for the people that didn't notice it was wrong right away."
Well, I did not exactly "notice this Greedo was wrong" right away . Definitly after sending it to Mike...... he gave me a brief break-down of what he found with the card/bubble- the orange color does not match Kenner/Canada coloring..... which I would not know how slight of a color difference it is in comparison to a Kenner-Canada Greedo orange... or possiibly Luke Farm-boy orange .... :?
Christian
06/25/05 04:33 PM
Quote:
I then decided to put the Greedo on Ebay(with the same exact pictures I sent Mike), and worded the auction in such a way not to necessarily "distract" potential buyers way from my auction..... and make it look appealing to the best of my ability..... without flat-out lying, or doing my best to "decieve" the Ebay croud. My aim was to "recoupe" the large majority of my money that I had into the piece.....
Sweet Jes*s Adam I've heard of 'advertising puff' before ( see Carhill v. Carbolic Smoke Ball Co. 1893 ) but this is stretching it a bit far. I'm fully aware of sellers, with rep or not, that tend to draw attention away 'this', 'that' and 'the other' but c'mon mate it's a bloody resealed junked up item end of story :crazy:
Quote:
Would a piece, that is 80% factory sealed, but the bubble that has come unglued at the top of the bubble(so the figure could be touched by a very small object.... but definitly not removed) be considered MOC ?
YES it's a reseal NOT M int O n C ard - I thought that anyone with any experience buying or selling vinty knows that :?
Lastly I sincerely apologise for posting in this highly charged thread all the way from London but IMHO a mistake was made (we all do that from time to time) but then was repeated and gentlemen this where the true problem lies. It should have been trashed - we don't need anymore of these types of items in our hobby..... there are far too bloody many already originating from the UK we don't need you yanks adding to the piles of crap
Regards,
Christian.
SW3packs
06/25/05 04:34 PM
Adam_Lovera wrote:
I then decided to put the Greedo on Ebay(with the same exact pictures I sent Mike), and worded the auction in such a way not to necessarily "distract" potential buyers way from my auction..... and make it look appealing to the best of my ability..... without flat-out lying, or doing my best to "decieve" the Ebay croud. My aim was to "recoupe" the large majority of my money that I had into the piece.....
I'm sorry Adam, but omission of the truth is the same as lying IMHO.
Joe
Matt_Yanders
06/25/05 04:36 PM
Christian wrote:
we don't need you yanks adding to the piles of crap
(Laughing emoticon)
Greedo_Lives
06/25/05 04:49 PM
I am sure like most of you Im sick of seeing so many reseals on eBay, but more bothersome are the vague descriptions about the item in an attempt to deceive buyers. You can say what you want about MOC this and that, but at the heart of the matter is if someone knows an item is deceptive in nature and you dont disclose it in an obvious manner you are a dishonest seller. This shouldnt be a surprise though since anything that involves money tends to bring out the dishonesty in people regardless of their reputation..
Dan
James_Gallo
06/25/05 05:13 PM
Quote:
"I don't place guilt on anyone except for the people that didn't notice it was wrong right away."
Since this is a hot topic I want to be perfectly clear on the above statement.
I don't place blame, becuase I wasn't involved in the deal in any manner, I didn't say that there shouldn't be blame given out, just that I am not the one to be the one to place the blame on one person or another.
Adam your use of MOC is a load of bull and you know it. It someone put a figure cut down to the bubble on ebay and called it MOC there would be ripped apart.
I realize everyone can have there own opinions about things, but there are certain things that are accepted in the hobby and the meaning of MOC certainly does not bend anywhere near as much as you are trying to bend it.
Don't try and bend a defination of a word to clear yourself of blame. If that helps you sleep better at night so be it, but just remember "once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny." A very true statement that applies to all walks of life IMO.
James G
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