Reged: 10/12/02
06/24/05 07:54 AM
Take a look at this auction here:
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5964176089
In case the images go down, I have them saved here:
http://www.womprat.com/images/temp/greedocdn20back14md.jpg
http://www.womprat.com/images/temp/greedocdn20back36qx.jpg
Adam_Lovera wrote: Re: Invisible Reseals #56730 - 11/16/02 12:50 AM Word up to what Bryan had to say, I second that motion Also, Ben Think about This: **What if you 1. get a clean cardback(no riping,etc. best if the bubble is cleanly cut away from the card, leaving NO rips, etc.) 2. Get a Factory Sealed Kenner figure still 100% sealed in the bubble, but the bubble has been cut off of the cardback leaving a completly sealed, mint bubble. 3. Then you simply put just enough "liquid nails" adheisive on the back of the bubble boarder, line it up properly with the cardback(double bar lines match up, or ESB, etc.) And Walla ! Alacazam ! Presto ! You have a 100% Factory sealed vintage SW. figure on an origional cardback. Just something to think about folks...
This is taken directly from This Thread
I originally bought this piece from Adam Lovera, (January 05 - private deal) with the only described flaw being a > 1" square lifted piece of litho and the bubble being 100% sealed. When I got it, it was a bubble from another card (U.S. ESB/ROTJ probably) glued onto the Canadian cardback.
I just can't believe that after making the comments seen in the thread from 2002, Adam Lovera had the nerve to sell me this and then resell it to someone else without fully disclosing that it was a fake. I'm definitely the fool for not asking a rigourous set of questions, but I felt that a fellow community member's word was good enough. I let the matter lapse after I received a partial refund from Adam Lovera as he claimed he received the Greedo that way, but after recently re-reading the Ackbar thread I felt this had to come to light. This whole incident has definitely coloured my scum trading experiences, as I used to take community members at their word for condition and even buy pieces sight unseen.
-Michael
www.womprat.com
EDIT: Mods and Admins, could you please not move this to the feedback forum as I feel this thread has repercussions for the vintage community as a whole. Thanks As of 8:57 am this morning I p/m'ed Adam Lovera so he can reply.
Dane
06/24/05 07:58 AM
n/m wrong person. and now back you your regularly scheduled program...
Edited by Dane (06/24/05 08:08 AM)
Alas1
06/24/05 09:02 AM
Yodasmaster could be Kyle Babbit's??
There is another one around with the same name though.
EDIT: sorry.
wookiemonster
06/24/05 10:00 AM
As the person who bought this from Adam on the second go, I felt exactly the same as Mike. I did read the description and because I had dealt with him before I had no reason to believe that the auction was misleading. I was mainly disappointed with the fact that he claims (in an email) that MOC and factory sealed are not the same thing.
I also accept some of the blame as I did not see the red flags that were put up by his auction description, BUT if this auction were from someone such as decadetoys and not a scum member then I would have walked away from it.
I too will be asking more questions in the fuutre.
Randy
Jasper
06/24/05 11:08 AM
An $120 BIN for that item should have raised your suspicions beyond all else.
Not that I wouldn't have snapped at it, had I seen the auction..
CanadianCollector
06/24/05 11:19 AM
Jasper wrote: An $120 BIN for that item should have raised your suspicions beyond all else. Not that I wouldn't have snapped at it, had I seen the auction..
Hey Jasper,
I paid more than that for the item, but naively I expected that dealing with a scum member, that they would disclose any and all Major Flaws. The second I had this in my hands I could tell it was wrong. And after Adam Lovera posted in 2002 on HOW TO MAKE THE EXACT SAME RECARD, and sells this piece you can understand why we're pissed off at being deceived. At best you could call this a recard or custom.
Jim McCallum owns this piece now and you can ask him about how legitimate it looks.
Again - if Decade Toys was selling something like this I'd have past it by
Lee_Bullock
06/24/05 11:23 AM
This is pretty saddening.... Ive had good dealings with Adam and I would never had figured him for this... I think Adam needs to respond to this thread, before his rep is permenently damaged. No item is worth you rep.
WiredMike
06/24/05 11:36 AM
Not to be a jerk, but man look at the pictures. I cant believe you couldnt tell that was a reseal. The lines dont match up at all. Hope this gets resolved for you.
BillCable
06/24/05 12:32 PM
I agree that it's pretty obvious in the photos. But when you're dealing with someone you believe to be a trusted seller, you don't look at the photos quite as closely. The description should have had "RECARD" in big, red letters, and should have gone into exacting detail on how it was crafted.
Tommy_Garvey
06/24/05 12:41 PM
WiredMike wrote: Not to be an [censored], but man look at the pictures. I cant believe you couldnt tell that was a reseal. [censored] the lines dont match up at all. Ok now time for someone to point out to me what I just made an [censored] of myself?
Actually, if you look at the item description, it reads:
Quote:
The bubble looks to be factory sealed(waffle pattern all the way around the bubble- indicative of Kenner style factory sealing) , however on the bottom right corner/edge- there is a area about 1"X1" that someone glued(visable glue on card) a piece of litho on to the cardboard( possibly to cover up a ripped area)- please see last photo
So, the fact that the lines didn't meet up in the close up pic is seemingly explained. It had been restored by placing a 1X1" piece of another card onto this one.
I don't believe there is a difference between "MOC" and "factory sealed" at ALL. The item description should have made this alledged difference clear.
Tommy
WiredMike
06/24/05 12:51 PM
Well the thing is that not only do the lines on the bottom not meet up, the lines on the side dont meet up.
Even as a new collector I know I would have came here first asking for others opinions. But like was posted earlier the seller is a member here and has good dealings in the past, I probably wouldnt have thought twice about the purchase.
Just goes to show you always have to think before pulling out the ole wallet.
Heathen_Bar
06/24/05 12:55 PM
The ones that are above suspicion are usually the ones that get away with the most. I don't understand how being active (ie posting a whole lot over the years) makes one somehow instantly honest.
Back in the RASSCV days, I had many big names (yes big names in this hobby) try to rip me off when I first entered the hobby...naive to how much things were worth. Luckily, I don't dive into the BS of people who claim to be above suspicion. Yes, the big names usually sell the real deal...but the pricing almost always falls in their direction, especially when they use their names as weight to underling worshippers(you guys know whay I mean)
This is an expensive hobby full of people who can't afford it. That is the proper ingredients for making scalpers and cheats. The only way to trust someone is to have done prior and satisfactory business with them. But then thats a catch 22 isn't it?
Always be vigilent
Bill Cable, BTW, to whom I replied to is as awesome as they come. I do not know if he remembers this but in my broke college days, he sold me an ewok village cheap (for shipping costs) so that my son could have a good christmas. Don't think I ever thanked him. :- ) My son, now 10, still has great times with the village.
Dane
06/24/05 01:19 PM
i think you guys are missing the point here...
early on he states how to re-attach a bubble to the card back.
then later on does this and sells the item knowingly that its as fake as re-valves DT crap, and rips off people in the process. :- /
prufrock
06/24/05 02:57 PM
The pictures ARE an immediate warning sign, but this auction seems deliberately dishonest. Was it an attempt to recoup his own losses in originally buying the figure?
Why are the torches and pitchforks not being brought out?
I would love to hear his side of the story.
adamb9
06/24/05 04:04 PM
Mike,
Thanks for editing your 'Adam' messages with a last name. I know that I don't post on this board as frequently as during the CollectStarWars or Toysrgus days. But I still didn't want there to be any confusion.
Thanks again,
Adam Bulakowski
Chris_Morin
06/24/05 04:10 PM
Mike, did you ask for your money back? If so, why didn't you return it and get your $$ back?
Chris Morin
CanadianCollector
06/24/05 04:29 PM
I did receive most of my money back, however, with shipping both ways and customs I was out around $50.00.
The timeline to this whole mess is as follows:
January 2005 - I start a deal with A. Lovera for a "100% factory Sealed Canadian Greedo" with a 1" tear at the bottom of the card. Coming from a guy with a lot of MOC's featured on toysRgus, when they say 100% factory sealed, why would I ask if it's a reseal.
February 2005 - I receive it, stick it under my printers loupe (Magnifying glass) and let the seller know immediately. After much negotiating I'm able to return it for a partial refund. The seller claims he bought this item this way and that he had no idea it was a bubble from an other card glued on a CDN backing. I drop the issue at the time as I chalked it up to an honest mistake.
March 2005 - Seller receives package from me and lists on eBay. I did not see it listed, and the first I heard of it was from Wookiemonster (Randy) who let me know that he had managed to "score" a Greedo. I tell him that I had it and it was not a genuine MOC. Being the superb gentleman he is, he pays the seller anyways and receives it.
June 2005 - Wookiemonster sells the Greedo to Jim McCallum. I'll leave it up to him to disclose the amount lost.
Late June 2005 - I'm re-reading the Invisible Reseals thread from 2002, and come upon the seller's post on how to craft the exact reseal that was sold in 2005. I bring the matter to the community's attention because with the 2002 post, A. Lovera shows that he either made the re-card or possessed sufficient knowledge to identify it as such before selling.
I hope this clarifies anything that was left out of my first post.
Thanks for reading this far,
Michael
wookiemonster
06/24/05 07:53 PM
On this piece I was out about $50. I certainly know that I took a risk because of the pictures, and had it been by anyone else I wouldn't have been too worked up. However, when dealing with a fellow collector who knowingly screwed me and really felt no need to do anything about it I was not happy. As Mike stated I did pay even when I knew that I was probably going to be screwed, perhaps assuming that Adam would do the right thing. Adam made it very clear that he was not interested in making any sort of deal with me on the figure as it was "as listed" on ebay. I know that I have been in similar situations with items I have sold to other scummers where there have been issues with damage in shipping and I always have made an effort to "make it right" with my fellow collectors.
Randy
Andy_R
06/24/05 09:13 PM
Adam also added the following in the same thread Mike pointed out:
Quote:
I am a ebay seller from time to time... I sware on my entire vint. SW. collection that I will not benifit from this info.
-Adam Lovera, 11/19/2002
----------------------------------------------
Ahh, the irony.
Adam_Lovera
06/24/05 10:07 PM
In Jan. Mike propositioned me about wanting to buy the 20-back Fett offer Greedo(not sure exactly how he knew that I had a carded example) ...... so I went ahead and sent him pictures, and did my best with a written description. I did straight up tell Mike(not sure if he paid much attention to the detail of what I was saying) that on the bottom right corner of the bubble/ bubble-card edge... there is tampering(ie. a cut part of litho was glued/reattached to the bottom edge- double bar line of the card... and there is dried glue still around that area-bubble edge/card edge, that can easily be seen. He offered me $150 for it , and I accepted his offer of $150.
After Mike got the Greedo... he was not happy with the piece. So, after a week or so of discussing the piece.... I told him that I'd be able to refund $155 .... of his total approx. $175(includes shipping to/from). He sent the Greedo back to me..... I then sent him a money order(NOT Pay Pal :-/ ) for $155. Thank you very much.
As soon as I recieved it back, I listed it on Ebay(Man... as soon as I sold it to Mike... THEN, I wanted to sell it.. and not keep it). Yes, Randy did win the auction... after it had been on about 10 hours(he must have seen it in the morning... still a little blury eyed from just waking up ;- ) ) and used the BIN of $120(that is exactly what I personally had into this piece in buying it from a Canadian seller on Ebay 3-4 years ago(BELIEVE it or not Mike ). Also, Randy did not know who the seller was initially on Ebay selling it, whether it was me... or Joe Shmuckatelli down the road
Randy then paid me via Money order... and I shipped his package out ASAP airmail. After Randy recieved the Greedo.... he was questioning my description of the Greedo on Ebay- in regards to me saying that "The bubble looks to be factory sealed(waffle pattern all the way around the bubble- indicative of Kenner style factory sealing) , however on the bottom right corner/edge- there is a area about 1"X1" that someone glued(visable glue on card) a piece of litho on to the cardboard( possibly to cover up a ripped area)- please see last photo." Yes, from a foot- or so away... it does look to be factory sealed, HOWEVERwhen you get right up on it.... there is the bottom right corner/edge that is muffled/ reglued up- litho replaced on the bottom edge, etc.. Irregardless.... Greedo does look to be mint... in probably a factory sealed bubble.... never opened.... however, is the bubble/card combo the origional set up.... probably not , but again I'm not even 100% sure. The origional owner could have pulled the bubble away from the card 1/2 way..... then decided to reseal/glue it back together- as best as they could.
Randy then was asking for some kind of a "partial refund" on the Greedo.... which I replyed to his email stating "well... how much of a partial refund are you wanting/thinking ???" ...... and HE NEVER REPLYED BACK to that question , reason why... only he knows.
I do my best to describe a particular pieces condition the best that I can ... however, I also do take as good of pictures as I can(Olympus 1.3 mega. camera..... kinda meger... but does the job), so like most Ebay auctions that do tend to have "iffy" pictures... I do my best to give the best sense of condition with the pictures I provide(basically free of service ).
Mike.... never mind on that Canadian Micro Tie-Fighter.... its probably too much trouble for you to handle .... and given this thread.... well, you get the picture
If anything else... this Canadian carded figure(yes, safely back home now in CDN) .... has been the ONE most botched sale/deal in the last 4+ years of me selling(whether selling multiple items per week, or 2 things per month).... and I cannot even remember back to anything remotely close to this monumental of a head-ache in having 1 or even 2 buyers of a single piece that I sold to someone.
Adam_Lovera
06/24/05 10:17 PM
Adam, I had let this whole mess slide, but after reading your post in the Ackbar thread about how to make that Greedo I received, I feel I have no choice but to go to the community.
-Mike
Ohhhhh , then Mike sends me this friendly PM... You assume way too much . I wish I had the time/energy to sit around for countless minutes/hours going through RS , trying to find some kinda methodology to Adam's madness :/ . To me, these things are simple production pieces... that people pay 10-100's of there origional cost now a days. If thats what floats your boat.... then cool, just be sure not to get sea-sick ;)
Good piece of detective work Mike , "reading your post in the Ackbar thread about how to make that Greedo I received" , no dice dude. Try and find 1 more piece like this Greedo Canadian Fett offer- any vintage carded figure... that I "supposidly" doctored up, or jerry-rigged. Someone is smoking crack here.... and I'm absolutely sure its not me :o
Adam_Lovera
06/24/05 10:37 PM
wookiemonster wrote:
As the person who bought this from Adam on the second go, I felt exactly the same as Mike. I did read the description and because I had dealt with him before I had no reason to believe that the auction was misleading. I was mainly disappointed with the fact that he claims (in an email) that MOC and factory sealed are not the same thing.
I too will be asking more questions in the fuutre.
Randy
Randy... you did not deal with me on Ebay before(yes, here on RS twice...) , but you did not know my Ebay ID .... thus how could you say that you knew who the seller was.
.... again, misleading..... I guess from your point of view.
To me , MOC and Factory sealed are different(whether you want to believe it, or not). MOC is "Mint on Card"..... which this Greedo IS. "Factory Sealed" means that the bubble has not been altered, messed with,etc. 100% factory sealed means there are no lifts at ANY of the edges/corners. I see customizer sellers on Ebay, etc. stating there carded figures are MOC..... which they are ;) , but they are not FACTORY SEALED ;) . BTW, this Greedo piece does look to be 100% real(no repro items associated with the bubble/card/figure/etc.) , the question of how it is sealed on to the card is another question altogether.
Yes, I like the number 3 :D
4HERO
06/24/05 11:10 PM
Note to self: do not buy from yodamaster7 with 98.3 feedback!
wookiemonster
06/25/05 12:53 AM
Sorry for not stating it properly, I did not know who the seller was before the auction, however I did know long before I sent the money order.
I never did receive a response to my request for a partial refund, I am not saying you did not send one, but I never received one.
Randy
Click here for part 2 of this thread.
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