Tomart Ripp Off!!

Matthew Templeton
April 6 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

Today I received a flyer from Tomart trying to sell a hard back
copy of their recent guide. It is just like the other except it has 40
additional pages with 250 unproduced figs and toys. That's cool and
all, but is it worth $95.00. Yes, I said $95.00!! The book is $79.95
plus $15.00 for shipping!! If you live in Ohio you have to pay tax
which makes it over $100!! If it makes you feel any better this is a
"limited" edition.....ooooh...aaaah. Yeah right, it's about as limited
as POTF2 red carded Landos!!! I think this is just a lame way for
tomart to make some more money! It's not bad enough that their second
edition pretty much sucked!! All they did was change a few pics and
virtually no prices. Not to mention the unending load of POTF2 pics!!!
If they want to add something like this they should at least offer the
extra portion seperate to the public, and not for $50+ either.
Well I have chimed off my thoughts on this. Hope everyone is
doing well. Happy collecting!

Matt

Gus Lopez
April 6 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> Matthew Templeton wrote:
> Today I received a flyer from Tomart trying to sell a hard back
>copy of their recent guide. It is just like the other except it has 40
>additional pages with 250 unproduced figs and toys. That's cool and
>all, but is it worth $95.00. Yes, I said $95.00!! The book is $79.95
>plus $15.00 for shipping!! If you live in Ohio you have to pay tax
>which makes it over $100!! If it makes you feel any better this is a
>"limited" edition.....ooooh...aaaah. Yeah right, it's about as limited
>as POTF2 red carded Landos!!! I think this is just a lame way for
>tomart to make some more money! It's not bad enough that their second
>edition pretty much sucked!! All they did was change a few pics and
>virtually no prices. Not to mention the unending load of POTF2 pics!!!
>If they want to add something like this they should at least offer the
>extra portion seperate to the public, and not for $50+ either.

I saw a preprint of this book and it is *incredible*! For many
collectors, it's not worth the high pricetag, but for anyone into
unproduced Kenner stuff, this book is a must-get. Some of the items have
been featured on the web before (and nowhere else) but there are plenty of
things that were eye-opening to me. I definitely plan to get a copy of
this book!

I don't want to give away the surprises, but rest assured, there will be
plenty of them!

Gus

Salfamily
April 7 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

In a word, "yes." I was lucky enough to see an advance version of this book
and, no exaggeration, its phenomenal stuff. Just from a look at those pics on
the flyer--unproduced Droids "companion" droids, unproduced Micro "Boiler Room"
set, alternate ROTJ logo concepts, POTF Awing box--this is stuff that has
either never been seen outside of the net, or just never seen *at all* by the
vast majority of the collecting public. This will surely be the most incredible
collection of Kenner file photography ever widely offered, and its a must-have
for anyone seriously obsessed with that sort of thing.

>The book is $79.95
> >plus $15.00 for shipping!! If you live in Ohio you have to pay tax >which makes it over $100!!

Yeah, the price and the way its being marketed as a supplement to a guide that
most already have bought, make it a gouge in every sense of the word. But,
personally--and I can only speak for myself--$100 is a decent price for the
kind of documentation you're getting....but it all depends on where your
interests lie, of course.

For what its worth, I *do* think they're lavishing alot of spiffiness on the
book itself. The binding process is supposedly very involved. Also, keep in
mind that, even if they *did* print up a ton of these books, there wouldn't be
extremely wide-spread interest in a high-end hardcover SW guide. I really
don't think the publication of such a thing on Tomart's part is a sure-bet as
far as making a ton of money goes. Its neither a cheap nor easy enterprise for
them to undertake.

> If it makes you feel any better this is a
>"limited" edition.....ooooh...aaaah. Yeah right, it's about as limited
>as POTF2 red carded Landos!!!

Actually, I think the folks at Tomart *do* have a rough go of it being a
relatively small operation and having to pay such a large tax burden from the
print run of the 2nd edition of the regular guide.Tumbusch Sr. has explained
the situation to me on two occasions and I'm inclined to believe him. The
hardcover edition is not being sold in stores, and they'll probably only print
up enough copies to fill immediate demand.

I do agree with you, that the "limited edition" stuff is largely horse
hockey....its a marketing ploy. One thing's for sure, however--the book
probably won't be ultra-easy to come by and won't be available forever. Its
probably comparable to the recent Chronicles book, which I've never seen in
stores.

> I think this is just a lame way for
>tomart to make some more money!

well, they *are* in it for the money, of course, but, like I said, I don't
think they stand to make a killing on this thing. It caters to a limited market
and is expensive for them to produce. Personally, I'm glad that someone decided
to publish this material, though I *would* have preferred to get it in a cheap
paperback edition :^)

> It's not bad enough that their second
>edition pretty much sucked!! All they did was change a few pics and
>virtually no prices. Not to mention the unending load of POTF2 pics!!!

yeah, I agree. The second guide edition was pretty lack luster.

>If they want to add something like this they should at least offer the
>extra portion seperate to the public, and not for $50+ either.

Now, *that* would have been ideal. But you can't expect companies to always
provide an easy route. They had to go through considerable trouble procuring
file photographs and taking new ones of existing material, and they already
have the pre-existing guide that they'd like to re-package, so they're milking
it for all its worth...but at least we get all the cool unproduced stuff :^)

ron

Cstoj
April 7 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

The fact is that this book is of limited use for most and will have a very
small intereste base. I know in the academic world, I pay 100-200 for books by
such publishers as Plenum and Academic Press because the books are so
specialized that only about 50 people in the world will buy them. Anyone for a
copy of "Epigenetic Variants of the Human Skull"? Anyway the price is a little
high but if it has rare pictures it may be worth it. After all you only have
to buy one copy ever.

John Wooten
April 7 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> Today I received a flyer from Tomart trying to sell a hard back
>copy of their recent guide. It is just like the other except it has 40
>additional pages with 250 unproduced figs and toys. That's cool and
>all, but is it worth $95.00. Yes, I said $95.00!! The book is $79.95
>plus $15.00 for shipping!! If you live in Ohio you have to pay tax
>which makes it over $100!! If it makes you feel any better this is a
>"limited" edition.....ooooh...aaaah. Yeah right, it's about as limited
>as POTF2 red carded Landos!!! I think this is just a lame way for
>tomart to make some more money! It's not bad enough that their second
>edition pretty much sucked!! All they did was change a few pics and
>virtually no prices. Not to mention the unending load of POTF2 pics!!!
>If they want to add something like this they should at least offer the
>extra portion seperate to the public, and not for $50+ either.

I don't get it. If you don't like it, then what's the big deal? Just don't
buy it. I don't really see how you can feel "ripped off" by something you
don't even want.

John

Mike B
April 7 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

I don't know about this amount of cash for any book that isn't an out of
print artifact. This is a rip-off. Tomart is a rip off. $5.95 for a
magazine chock full of more rip-off ads?? One bad aspect to SW
collecting are the gougers.. like the fan club, you guys check out some
of those prices lately in the Jawa trader?
With Sci-Fi marketing, advertisers recognize the "Star Trek" nerd
element of collectors and CASH IN. If some of these laughable prices
were not tolerated, there would be no such situation..
Now I am not a total grinch, I thought the Froot Loops and Cantina
Diorama offers (as well as those of us that won B' ommar Monks) were
quite frugal deals, but come on folks, some of these "limited edition"
collectibles are just lame..
Sorry for the POTF2 references, but I just had to vent.

Mike

John Wooten
April 7 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

>I don't know about this amount of cash for any book that isn't an out of
>print artifact. This is a rip-off. Tomart is a rip off. $5.95 for a
>magazine chock full of more rip-off ads?? One bad aspect to SW
>collecting are the gougers.. like the fan club, you guys check out some
>of those prices lately in the Jawa trader?
>With Sci-Fi marketing, advertisers recognize the "Star Trek" nerd
>element of collectors and CASH IN. If some of these laughable prices
>were not tolerated, there would be no such situation..

Well, lots of specialty books are expensive. Find a good art book for under
$80 or so. We're all people who'll pay $100 for a 20 year old toy that we
just sit on a shelf. What's $100 for a book with pictures and information of
darn near everything. For many folks, this is one of the best ways to see
some of this stuff without actually owning it. I don't disagree that it's
expensive and probably overpriced but sometimes that's the way it goes. The
people who want it badly enough will pay, the people who don't, won't. Seems
simple to me. It isn't like this is a required purchase every SW collector
has to make. You do have a choice.

John

woods01
April 7 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> I don't get it. If you don't like it, then what's the big deal? Just don't
> buy it. I don't really see how you can feel "ripped off" by something you
> don't even want.

I think his beef is that he and 1000s of other collectors bought the 2nd
edition thinking it would be all they'll need until the prequels wrap. Now a
few months later there is a new book with some very cool photos in it, that I
bet the majority of collectors would love to have in their 2nd edition just
for looking at. This tomart scam is similar to the stunt done with the THX
videos by having the letterbox sets come out months later. Also at $100 for
book that is out of date the day its printed, that is a lot of dough,
especially considering the many excellent vintage available for $100 or less.
I'd love to have those proto pictures but at $100 I have to think twice,
hopefully Lopez will scan'em for the archive :) SO anyone want to sell me
their softcover tomart cheap? I havn't got one yet :)

-John

John Wooten
April 7 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

>I think his beef is that he and 1000s of other collectors bought the 2nd
>edition thinking it would be all they'll need until the prequels wrap. Now a
>few months later there is a new book with some very cool photos in it, that I
>bet the majority of collectors would love to have in their 2nd edition just
>for looking at. This tomart scam is similar to the stunt done with the THX
>videos by having the letterbox sets come out months later. Also at $100 for
>book that is out of date the day its printed, that is a lot of dough,
>especially considering the many excellent vintage available for $100 or less.

I can understand that, but what I didn't get was how he said how much the 2nd
edition sucked in his opinion anyway.maybe he was just lashing out, I don't
know. I mean, if he thought the 2nd edition was bad, why should the hardcover
bother him?

I'm not sure whether I'll buy it or not either, since I can always mooch off
some folks I know, but from what I hear, it is pretty neat-o, and I probably
will get one since I never got around to buying the other one.

John

Kirsten Schaulin
April 7 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> John Wooten wrote:
> I don't get it. If you don't like it, then what's the big deal? Just don't
> buy it. I don't really see how you can feel "ripped off" by something you
> don't even want.

Yeah, but the problem is John, many of us *want* this book, but there's
no way in hell we're going to spend an extra $70 for it. Gus, et al,
I've seen you throw away (IMO of course) money on SW stuff like it's
candy, but at this point, I can barely afford POTF2, and am *extremely*
disappointed that I can't get this book at a reasonable price. At $100,
Tumbusch should hand deliver the book to me on a silver platter.

-Kirsten

John Wooten
April 7 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

>Yeah, but the problem is John, many of us *want* this book, but there's
>no way in hell we're going to spend an extra $70 for it. Gus, et al,
>I've seen you throw away (IMO of course) money on SW stuff like it's
>candy, but at this point, I can barely afford POTF2, and am *extremely*
>disappointed that I can't get this book at a reasonable price. At $100,
>Tumbusch should hand deliver the book to me on a silver platter.

I think I'm being misunderstood. I never meant to say that $100 is a great
price, good price or even fair price, I just didn't understand why the
original poster went on and on about how much the guide sucks, then complains
about the price of the "deluxe" version. If it sucks, then I don't know why
he'd want it. Hopefully that makes more sense.

John

Michael Mierzwa
April 7 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> John Wooten wrote:
> I think I'm being misunderstood.

And I think Matt is too!

> I never meant to say that $100 is a great
> price, good price or even fair price, I just didn't understand why the
> original poster went on and on about how much the guide sucks, then complains
> about the price of the "deluxe" version. If it sucks, then I don't know why
> he'd want it. Hopefully that makes more sense.

Buried in his post (and I do mean buried) is a line where Matt says,

"If they want to add something like this they should at least offer the
extra portion seperate to the public, and not for $50+ either."

He isn't upset about adding new stuff, but the packaging of new stuff
with old.

I think he probably does want to see the new photos and sections, but
Kristen has a good point. Eventually people who don't buy *every*
single thing have to draw a line somewhere and say, "My collection ends
here, and I'll just look at one of my friend's books!" :)

Personally, if this is running about $100 ... I'd rather hunt for a nice
Imperial Shuttle. I don't have one yet. And this is what I guess your
point is John, that people are perfectly free to not buy the book.

But then Matt might say, that he would bought the new addition if it
cost much less! :(

Michael Mierzwa

star wars
April 7 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

Here is my two cents. Since I am both a collector of of books and
Star Wars stuff, I am going to buy this book. Don't forget that Star
Wars collecting is a relatively small hobby, whereas book collecting is
a huge hobby... maybe Tomart is trying to appeal to other collector's
rather than only SW figure collectors. Also, don't forget we still live
in a capitolist country, where the seller controls the price. I don't
know about you, but I kinda like that.

Thank you, John

Michael Mierzwa
April 7 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> star wars wrote:
> Since I am both a collector of of books and
> Star Wars stuff, I am going to buy this book. Don't forget that Star
> Wars collecting is a relatively small hobby, whereas book collecting is
> a huge hobby... maybe Tomart is trying to appeal to other collector's
> rather than only SW figure collectors.

I didn't even think about people buying the books just to collect books.
:)

> Also, don't forget we still live
> in a capitolist country, where the seller controls the price. I don't
> know about you, but I kinda like that.

Actually just a quick (short) comment. Capitalism only implies
approaching a free market. Market prices are not set only buy the
seller, but also by the consumers in a free market (hence supply and
demand). ;)

Michael Mierzwa

Christopher Maybury
April 7 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> Yeah, but the problem is John, many of us *want* this book, but there's
> no way in hell we're going to spend an extra $70 for it. Gus, et al,
> I've seen you throw away (IMO of course) money on SW stuff like it's
> candy, but at this point, I can barely afford POTF2, and am *extremely*
> disappointed that I can't get this book at a reasonable price. At $100,
> Tumbusch should hand deliver the book to me on a silver platter.

Well, to be honest, Kirsten, with the $$ we just spent on those "Heart of
the Ocean" replicas, we could afford 2 copies of this new book, plus have
enough left over to eat in a restaurant nice enough for you to actually wear
the necklace :)

Seriously though, the price doesn't sound all that unreasonable when you
consider the high cost of paper recently, coupled with the low printing
run and the number of pages used for color photos. And maybe I can get
Sansweet to autograph this one too :)

BTW, is this the book to be packaged with the CS12 Anakin I heard about?

Gus Lopez
April 7 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

>Yeah, but the problem is John, many of us *want* this book, but there's
>no way in hell we're going to spend an extra $70 for it.

I wouldn't be surprised if those photos starting making their way into
other Tomart publications (like eventually the softcover Tomart guide).
Many of the items are already featured on the SWCA, although there is a
lot of previously unseen stuff in the new Tomart book.

>Gus, et al,
>I've seen you throw away (IMO of course) money on SW stuff like it's
>candy, but at this point, I can barely afford POTF2,

You might be surprised how picky I am about splurging. I know some POTF2
collectors who routinely spend more than me. I buy about 2-3 vintage
items a month, but usually make those purchases count. I'm into quality
over quantity. I'm also not convinced throwing large money at collecting
is the best strategy for acquiring a nice collection (although it sure
helps :^)).

>and am *extremely*
>disappointed that I can't get this book at a reasonable price. At $100,
>Tumbusch should hand deliver the book to me on a silver platter.

I wish the price were lower too. Tom Tumbusch told me that they were
trying to get a lower price but weren't able to.

Gus

Salfamily
April 8 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

I'm not too in the know about the publishing business, but, from what I
understand, part of the difficulty Tomart is having releasing this book stems
from the tax problems associated with the publication of the 2nd edition of the
guide. I've been told that taxes are paid by a publisher, not on each book that
they sell, but on each that they *produce*, meaning that they're paying taxes
on each and every issue of the guide that has been printed but still has not
sold. I think this contributes to the high price on the hardcover, but its
probably also the cause behind its low print run, as well as the delay in its
release. Like I said, its not like their a Time-Life. They're a fairly small
operation.

Really, as John W. and others have stated in this thread, the $100 price tag
isn't too outlandish when compared to similar publications. That its a sucky
situation that so many bought the $30 soft cover guide before the announcement
of this updated release, there is no doubt.

ron

Salfamily
April 8 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

>I saw a preprint of this book and it is *incredible*! For many
>collectors, it's not worth the high pricetag, but for anyone into
>unproduced Kenner stuff, this book is a must-get. Some of the items have
>been featured on the web before (and nowhere else) but there are plenty of
>things that were eye-opening to me. I definitely plan to get a copy of
>this book!

Well, it should be mentioned that, though it *does* have alot of stuff that
hasn't yet been featured elsewhere, that new Tomart book is derivative of some
other peoples' work

Kudos to Gus, as well as chris georgoulias, for blazing the trail in bringing
this sort of thing to the public.

ron

Kirsten Schaulin
April 8 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> Salfamily wrote:
> Really, as John W. and others have stated in this thread, the $100 price tag
> isn't too outlandish when compared to similar publications. That its a sucky
> situation that so many bought the $30 soft cover guide before the announcement
> of this updated release, there is no doubt.
> ron

I disagree. I bought my "Star Wars Chronicles" for $110, which I felt
was a very reasonable price for that book. With the sheer number of
color photos (every single page out of over 300 has at least one color
photo on it, usually many more), as well as the beautiful cover and
packaging, I can completely understand that at $100 per book, the
publisher probably would barely break even. However, from what I've
seen of the new Tomart book, it doesn't even compare. To compare with
other recent publications, take the hardcover "James Cameron's Titanic"
for instance. Amazon lists it as $35, and if you've seen this book, it
really is phenominal. Again, color pictures on nearly every page, as
well as excellent research and cover artwork. These are just my
examples of movie related books, but I could go into *much* greater
detail in other fields (marine aquaria, etc).

As for my personal opinion on why this book is so expensive...Tumbusch
knew he could charge that much, because he's a collector himself, he
knows many of the "high-end" collectors that would be interested in the
book, and knows that if the people who collect the items featured in
this new "limited edition" (hype hype hype) are willing to plop down a
couple grand for a prototype or proof, they're not going to think twice
about paying $100 for a book that features their interests.
Unfortunately for him, those people are rather limited, so therefore,
the "limited edition" tag. These days (as is proven by POTF2
certainly!) just about anyone will jump when the words "limited edition"
are used.

Maybe this is just sour grapes on my part, but from what I know of the
publishing business and the quality I can compare this book to, this new
edition is price gouging at it's best.

-Kirsten

XeNaTsErVo
April 8 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

Sorry Tomart, I'd love to buy the book but $100 is groceries for a week here.
Eric makes a good point about the hefty shipping charge. $15!! I'd like to see
what the postage label states the ACTUAL shipping as being.

rlcox
April 8 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> To compare with
> other recent publications, take the hardcover "James Cameron's Titanic"
> for instance. Amazon lists it as $35, and if you've seen this book, it
> really is phenominal. Again, color pictures on nearly every page, as
> well as excellent research and cover artwork. These are just my
> examples of movie related books, but I could go into *much* greater
> detail in other fields (marine aquaria, etc).

Bad example for several reasons. First, I'm going to bet that the publisher
is much larger than Tomart (though I don't know who it is) and that they can
thus better manage the tax burden. Secondly, comparing Titanic and SW
collecting is skewed. There is a much wider audience for the Titanic
fad-of-the-moment junk than SW, so the publisher can sell more, thus produce
more, thus make more $$, enabling them to keep prices low. The new Tomart
guide not only caters to a small group of people (SW collectors) but a small
group *within* that small group (those interested in unpro stuff.)

> As for my personal opinion on why this book is so expensive...Tumbusch
> knew he could charge that much, because he's a collector himself, he
> knows many of the "high-end" collectors that would be interested in the
> book, and knows that if the people who collect the items featured in
> this new "limited edition" (hype hype hype) are willing to plop down a

But would he not have sold more at a lower price (as is obvious from this
thread), thus a higher profit margin?

> Unfortunately for him, those people are rather limited, so therefore,
> the "limited edition" tag.

Yesss....

> These days (as is proven by POTF2
> certainly!) just about anyone will jump when the words "limited edition"
> are used.

Good point, very true.

Richard

Kirsten Schaulin
April 8 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> Bad example for several reasons.

Okokok...I was just trying to find something that most people on this
group have seen. I can give lots of examples of great big pretty books
from little bitty publishers though with an extremely limited audience
though! And what about the "Chronicles?" That's certainly not from a
large publisher ("Chronicles Publishing"), and that book had a limited
run as well.

> But would he not have sold more at a lower price (as is obvious from this
> thread), thus a higher profit margin?

Maybe, but maybe not. Like you said above, this book caters to a small
group within a small group. There are some of us that are on the
"fringe" of that small group (those of us that like to look at the stuff
but have no desire to pay the big bucks for it), but we're not a huge
group either. I'd be willing to bet that most of the people who collect
SW have no clue that people even collect prototypes like super duper
mega flying rocket launching Boba Fett's big toe. ;)

-Kirsten

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