Tomart Ripp Off!!

stuntboy
April 9 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> "Enjoyment" is a relative term. Someone may enjoy spending $1500 on a
> bunch of POTF2 stuff while another person would rather spend it on a
> single proto. There's nothing wrong with either one.

true.

"collection" is a relative term as well. quantity does not necessarily make a
collection great or make one collector better than another. a single well,
placed item can outshine 500 common pieces.

quality usually makes collections interesting to look at and helps to set them
off as individual. quantity usually serves to overwhelm you with sheer size
which kinda wears off pretty soon. unless it's a quantity of quality pieces,
in which case you're usually in for a mouth-watering experience :^)

-chris

stuntboy
April 9 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> Even Steven Sansweet said that he is a sucker for rarity. Sure it is cool
> to have something that is one of a kind, sure it is ego heightening. But
> all this competion amongst each other for supposed rarities is convincing a

i think the competition is good. i think rarity is good. it's like that
with any kind of collecting. if there were no prizes then the interest
wouldn't be as high because the game wouldn't be as interesting.

> > >wiill still be here. I know I will, will you? Rarity does not mean
> > >quality and it dosent' mean happiness.

not by strict definition, but i can assure you that in many cases rarity does
mean quality and happiness.

> where people are going to have to draw the line, and this is where i have
> drawn the line. This is just too much money for a single volume with
> little new information. If you think though that people are not using this

it's a small print run from a small company. books just cost lots of money.
it was pointed out how much art books cost. many color, hardback art books
routinely cost $60-$100. my h.r. geiger book cost $80 and it has much less
content than this tomart book will.

> and other instances to impress others, well i gotta diagree. So many
> people are looking to out bid each other and compete with one another is is
> unbelivable. I used to see it with dealers, but know I am so accustomed to
> seeing it with collectors it is sickening.

sometimes the competition is stiff and the supply is way low. what else can
happen? either you get in early or through the back door before others or you
have to fight it out (so to speak) publically. the demand is there and it's
getting bigger all the time.

> People are not going after what they want, but what othres want.

i do believe this happens, but it's not always the norm.

> There was a Hoth battle header card at
> alantique, so many people looked at it and gwaked and awed over it. But
> WHY??? Because it was several hundred bucks and right now is demand, not
> because it is so cool.

but it is cool! and it's a store display which make it a non-production item
which makes it "rare" compared to lots of other stuff. not as rare as some
items, but still not a breeze to find. however i've seen lots for sale so
there is somewhat of a supply.

> for some reason rarity=cool and i just think that
> it is the wrong way to collect .

it is. but most of the time rare = cool because people like to see and own
items that aren't in everyone's collection and widely available. i've
seen so much sw stuff in my time that i generally don't get exctited
unless i see something that i've never seen before. that keeps it all
fresh. so the "veteran" collectors might only think the rare stuff is cool
because they are so accustomed to seeing the normal items. they're not
necessarily snubbing the items that the new collectors find interesting, but
what's fresh to one's eyes may be old to another's.

also what one considers "cool" may only be from an aesthetic or character or
movie point of view. what i consider "cool" usually comes from looking at a
piece for what it is, not usually what it represents. a mock-up for a display
is cool because it was used in the creation of the item. the finished display
itself may look nicer from an aesthetic point of view, but it's a different
beast.

-chris

John Wooten
April 9 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

>I think that you and others are real naive to think that peole are paying
>big bucks for certain star wars toys, just because they like them, that

Why would I be naive?!?? *I'm* one of them! I've spent nothing near what
other folks have, but for a few certain "rarities" I would shell out because I
*want* them that much.

>may be they way you see it, but I gotta belive otherwise. A LOT of people,
>wether they be collectors or speculators, are spending big bucks on items
>because of speculatory interests. How many of you are missing cheaper ROTJ

If someone were a speculator, they would be buying cheap, not paying top
dollar, right?

>and ESB figures in your collection , but are looking for a POTF ATAT
>DRIVER? How many of you own no TRI LOGO FIGURES and vehemently hated them

I think part of the problem is that you've already figured out everyone else's
motives all by yourself. IMO, some folks may not have the cheaper things
because they can get those at any time. I do know a few collectors who get
those as they do anything else on the way to completing their goal. also, a
lot of the "cheaper" figures are like that because they're boring characters
that no one really wants anyway. Popularity has to figure in somewhere too,
separate from "rarity".

>years ago, only to be searching for the elusive trilogo Madine, to complete
>your TRILOGO collection at one figure? How many of you don't own one
>Droids figure, but would consider dropping $2000 bucks on a VLIX? See what
>I mean, you can disagree, but anyone who is a bit less trusting and
>skeptical of people's true intentions, can see what I am getting out. You
>are far too trusting to belive that star wars like everything else is being
>motivated by greed and envy.

Well, all I know is that *I'm* not motivated by those things, and I know a lot
of people who aren't, so I'll take my first hand experience over yours
anytime. I do not doubt that there are people that are only turned on by
uncommon stuff, but to say this is because they're greedy and speculatory is
way to jaded in my opinion. I'm sure there are less noble folks out there,
but most everyone I meet is just having a good time collecting *toys*

John

CABLEPETE
April 9 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

You folks should stop complaining ;o) - Tomart's not published in the UK and
consequently imports are on sale at whatever the store feels like selling them
at. I've seen 2nd Ed. Softcovers for nearly 40 quid (about $70) It'd calmed
down a bit but the hardback ltd. edition started appearing @ about the
equivelent of $160-170 in some places.
Most of the POTF2 line is not on sale here either, unless you buy US imports
from a specialist collectors' store. On a recent trip to the US I had to smile
at the six dollar tags - in the UK these figures are retailing at the
equivelent of about $16. I've seen B'Omarr's, Loops Hans and Spirit bens @ = to
$70. It's out of control - in many places the price of loose vintage is
actually better than POTF2
Does anybody know much about the new japanese book on vintage figs? Could it be
better than Tomart? Is anyone translating/publishing it in English?
If it concentrates on figs and vehicles, that would be way cool - for me it was
difficult to part with my hard earned for Tomart 2nd ed. as alot of the stuff
in it I don't collect at all - I just go for Kenner stuff. (though it was nice
to see some of the crazier stuff available way back when, B&W pictures of kids
underwear didn't really do a lot for me.)
maybe Tomart should've release a seperate volume for each line of figures as
well one for the rest of the collectables. Most people I know are only really
keen on vintage Kenner with an eye for the odd curio from other lines. The ltd
edition hard cover has proved that there's enough material about the Kenner
lines to do this. I kind of felt let down by the text side of Tomart too - I
wanted to know all about the design and construction of the figures, the whole
story of the Kenner/SW thing, but we just got a few hundred lines which skipped
over Early Bird and telescoping lightsabers etc.
Anything with all that stuff in exist yet?
Pete

Tim Sparks
April 9 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> MegatronForever wrote:
> > trolling? Is this an accurate assesment?
> playing the Devil's Advocate and more or less an experiment ala the
> pavement/matador chat session conterversey.

Hmm, thats all very fine but..how will we know when you ARENT "playing
the devil's advocate", which is, by the way, Trolling.

rlcox
April 9 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> So I guess Yak Face is cool to everyone and on the top of everyones list
> because of how cool he looks, rather than he being a foreign exclusive and
> commanding a lot of attention and some major cash. By that rationale POTF
> Nikto and POTF GamGuard's should be getting $20 bucks each plus $10 for the
> coin, because they aren't really any cooler than their ROTJ counterparts,
> they just have the added incentive of the coin. Popularity has to do with
> a lot, but remember there are a lot of people who wouldn't pisss on a ESB
> carded FX-7, but would go absolutely ape-shit to have the only austrailian
> POTF FX-7 in existence (this is only being used as a for instance , I know
> this figure has never surfaced).

Well, you discount the popularity and mystique of the POTF line. And what is
wrong with collecting something rare? I just don't get it. Please explain it
to me. Why would anyone *want* to collect only the same thing everyone else
does. They add a bit of individuality to a collection.
Geez, I feel like I'm repeating myself over and over...

> Just ask them and yourself if your toys weren't worth anything would you
> still collect them?

Of course I would. If I were collecting for money it wouldn't be toys I was
buying.

Richard

rlcox
April 9 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> I think that you and others are real naive to think that peole are paying
> big bucks for certain star wars toys, just because they like them, that

I spend some fairly big $$ on Star Wars, but *only* because I like them. I
have no desire to get a Vlix, because *at this point* in my collecting I don't
care about the Droids line of figures. However, since I love POTF, I would
spend a goodly amount to get an unproduced POTF proof. Yes, I would be
spending a lot on it, but who would really be impressed? I buy because I
like, period.

> may be they way you see it, but I gotta belive otherwise. A LOT of people,

What I don't understand is why others collecting paterns matter so much to
you?

> wether they be collectors or speculators, are spending big bucks on items
> because of speculatory interests. How many of you are missing cheaper ROTJ

Rubbish. I think most here would agree that they buy what they like, be it
rare or not.

> and ESB figures in your collection , but are looking for a POTF ATAT
> DRIVER?

POTF AT-AT Driver is a very cool figure. Believe it or not, I'd prefer the
ESB version, though, becaus eit's the first card he appeared on, and I find
that more interesting as a historical piece.

> How many of you own no TRI LOGO FIGURES and vehemently hated them
> years ago, only to be searching for the elusive trilogo Madine, to complete
> your TRILOGO collection at one figure? How many of you don't own one

Who cares? I like trilogo because many have interesting photo variations.

I see no difference between trying to get all trilogos and trying to get all
12 backs. It all comes down to collecting interests, and interests change.
When someone gets tired of something, they move on. And trilogo collecting is
just warming up. I bet a good number of these collectors stem from those who
have just gotten tired of the domestic stuff. Like chris said in a different
thread, sometimes the stuff you see all the time becomes "ho-hum. same ol',
same ol'"

> I mean, you can disagree, but anyone who is a bit less trusting and
> skeptical of people's true intentions, can see what I am getting out. You
> are far too trusting to belive that star wars like everything else is being
> motivated by greed and envy.

Then why are you here? Greed or envy?

I buy what I do because I like it and think it's cool. Who cares if anyone
else is impressed? Hell, people outside the hobby think I'm mad for dropping
hundreds of dollars into plastic toys and cardboard.

Richard

Matthew Templeton
April 9 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

I am not sending this to cause an uproar but just as a concern. I know
this is a public forum, but I think it is a shame that some people
cannot help but use foul language in their posts. You do realize that
many children see these?!?! That type of language is just a lack of
intelligence, IMO. Let's act like the mature adults that we should be
and set examples for the ones younger than us. All that these kind of
posts can accomplish is give the newsgroup or our hobby a bad rep. This
is not a cut to one specific person just a concern from a fellow
newsgrouper!

thanks,

Matt

John Wooten
April 10 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

>Not neccesarily, seems that certain star wars dealers prominent on the net
>are pushing "investment grade collectibles"
>to the discriminating speculat uh..err.. collector.

You know, obviously you've some sort of "ideas" about people's motivations.
Stop being so vague and actually come out and say something. These veiled
comments are really useless.

>I am not claiming analysis upon people's buying habits, but I know what
>I've seen and heard. Ever go to or do a show and hear some one ask "So
>what do you have sealed?" Well what are you looking for? "I don't know I
>am just interested in sealed stuff?" I have been privellaged to it in the
>past. Or as I would like to quote one Toy shop major advetiser, "Yeah, GI

1) People can be interested in sealed things without being greedy bastard
speculators.
2) Maybe those folks just want an example of a perfect toy? Maybe they want
sealed things but aren't into specific toys yet. who knows, but why assume
they're up to no good or doing something wrong?

>JOE isn't as hot as star wars yet, people havn't been calling me up and
>asking for anything sealed."

I don't even have the slightest idea what this is supposed to mean. Although,
I have heard dealers talk about what's hot and what's not, but I largely
completely ignore that sort of talk.

>So I guess Yak Face is cool to everyone and on the top of everyones list
>because of how cool he looks, rather than he being a foreign exclusive and
>commanding a lot of attention and some major cash. By that rationale POTF
>Nikto and POTF GamGuard's should be getting $20 bucks each plus $10 for the
>coin, because they aren't really any cooler than their ROTJ counterparts,
>they just have the added incentive of the coin. Popularity has to do with
>a lot, but remember there are a lot of people who wouldn't pisss on a ESB
>carded FX-7, but would go absolutely ape-shit to have the only austrailian
>POTF FX-7 in existence (this is only being used as a for instance , I know
>this figure has never surfaced).

It's not all black and white. The figures you suggest are hard to find, thus
they cost more because those looking for them are willing to pay more. Why
are they looking for them? Who knows and what is the difference? I guarantee
there are people out there who simply want these to complete a set or maybe
because they just want that carded figure, not unlike why I'd want a 20 back
Luke X-Wing or 12 back Han Solo.

>Just ask them and yourself if your toys weren't worth anything would you
>still collect them?

duh. You're damn right I would. I did back in 1978-83 too. I'd love it even
more because I could get everything I wanted again. I've read a lot of really
great attitudes in this thread. It seems the only one with a sour attitude is
you with your "perceptions" of why other people are doing what they're doing.
Why are you so worried about why other people are buying what they buy?
What's it to you? (seriously)

John

John Wooten
April 10 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

>A collection is cool because of its content, not it's rarity, not it's
>market value,etc and not because of its relation to other collections.

A simple explanation: A collection is cool if you, the owner, think it is
cool. Period.

>Rare items aren't cool because they are rare, but because of what they
>represent. But to collect items because they are RARE or are not being
>sought out by the majority of collectors, is pretty frivolus and also
>pretty empty. How much meaning can a piece hold for someone if it is just
>RARE. I stated the reasons why I want certain protos, but no one has seem
>to make it aparent the appeal of proffs or displays?

Proofs and displays are very exciting to me, not because they are rare, but
because they are just neat as hell. Sure, there's a little part that enjoys
knowing that I have something very few other people have, but it's more the
satisfaction of having had the luck or skill to actually find one. I think
you really just think that anyone who has something uncommon is just in it to
go nyah nyah nyah to everyone else. That just isn't true.

John

james pancoast
April 10 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> I think that's a mistaken impression of how one assembles a good
> collection. As Gus and chris and Ron and Paul and a lot of other folks
> have said, time and again, throwing money around is probably the *worst*
> way to assemble a collection. Arm yourself with information, and be a
> selective buyer. And if that means sometimes gritting your teeth and
> paying a lot of money for a guidebook, then I think it's a good
> investment.

Part of the problem I'm having with this whole thing is this: WHY
where these photo's and this information not in the original version of
the 2nd edition?

If I had known that this limited edition version was coming out, I
wouldn't have bought the softcover. $100 for the book alone wouldn't have
been that bad, but since I have the original version, I'd be paying $100
for what, 40 or so glossy color pages?

> I was privileged to see advance copies of some of the new "unproduced"
> setion of the Tomart's guide, and it is really great stuff, IMHO. This is
> the kind of stuff that never been seen, outside the SWCA.
>
> The sad fact is, though, for you folks who don't want to spend $100 on the
> new Tomart's guide, I'm betting that all of those pictures will probably
> be available somewhere on the web literally within hours after the book is
> out.

Why is it sad? If these pic's had been in the original version
in the first place, there wouldn't be a problem (if there is some reason
they weren't, could someone please tell me). A lot of people out there
don't have $100 to spend on a single book, either. I must also apologize
if I took offense at something that you didn't mean to offend :)

John Wooten
April 10 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

>Hey, John, listen if that is what you want to interpert these posts as than
>so be it. But I can't help but belivve that half the people on this group

What am I "interpreting?" This is *my* viewpoint. I realize you don't
believe people think the way I do, but I'm really not lying about it.

>and half of the people who collect anything, collect because someone has
>attached a dollar sign to thier desired items,and if you cannot see that to
>an extent, well then you are really naive. This has become an industry

2nd time I'm called naive....

>like baseball cards and comic books and is filled with collectors, dealers
>and speculators. Whether you want to face the truth that there are many
>out there buying with less noble intentions than yourself , well than so be

Of course there are people out there buying for *ANY* reasons, some good some
bad, but to think that everyone who spends a lot, or likes rare stuff is a
speculator" is ridiculous.

>it. But really, you mean to tell me so many people are after Vlix, because
>they are in love with this figure or is it the status attached to it and
>the big dollar signs? But I forgot people are completists? That's why

I don't know why anyone wants a Vlix, but I know that if 10 people have one,
there are probably 10 different reasons. Why try to use one reason to
explain lots of individuals' motives? Why are you worried about why other
people are buying things?

>item or just the vast majority of people do not have anything like it. I
>mean really think about what some of your comments mean and really try toi
>analyse what they are saying. Anyone who starts saying that they are

I really wish you'd analyze what I'm saying too, because you really just don't
get it. I keep repeating myself over and over and over here.

>collecting because no one else has it, seems pretty selfabsorbed and are
>definitely not collecting for the right reasons, it's not that it's star
>wars it's that it's rare.

I will add this: People who say they collect things that are rare and that
don't exist in every collection do not necessarily mean that they "want it
because no one else has it" which is your own negative definition of what
their motives are. Sometimes, there's happiness from having something
*different*. I really never think about other people's collections or
collecting habits. Why you're so concerned with it is beyond me.

John

rlcox
April 10 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> Why is it sad? If these pic's had been in the original version

It's sad because it's copyrighted material, and people will be stealig it.

> in the first place, there wouldn't be a problem (if there is some reason
> they weren't, could someone please tell me).

What I heard was that it wasn't in the regular edition because it would appeal
to such a smaller audience that those not interested in unproduced stuff
wouldn't want to keep footing the extra $$. Keep in mind that the softcover
already cost $30. Add 40 glossy pages to that, and the price hike that
would have to go with it, and you'll lose some buyers, because they won't be
willing to pay that much money.

Richard

rlcox
April 10 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> people seem to get off on rartiy and even you and others admmitted that.

And what's wrong with that?

> "oh, Why collect what everyone and their brother has" So why are you
> collecting then? Because no one else has it, because you really like the
> item or just the vast majority of people do not have anything like it. I

Can't it be all of the above? Collectors/collecting can't be broken into nice
little groups. I collect proof cards and carded figures because
a)I like them (both)
b)historic value(both)
c)It's something to add a little individuality to my collection (both)
d)Not everyone else has them (proofs)

> analyse what they are saying. Anyone who starts saying that they are
> collecting because no one else has it, seems pretty selfabsorbed and are
> definitely not collecting for the right reasons, it's not that it's star
> wars it's that it's rare.

I suppose it can't be because it's rare Star Wars, can it? Never occurred to
you I guess. Come on, you're trying to pigeonhole people here. What if I
tried to pigeonhole you as a scalper of new toys, like someone else said? Of
course, that would be pretty ironic since you've been complaining about market
prices throughout this whole thread. If you are scalping POTF2, maybe we
should move over to RASSCm and see what they think.

Richard

stuntboy
April 10 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> Hey, John, listen if that is what you want to interpert these posts as than
> so be it. But I can't help but belivve that half the people on this group
> and half of the people who collect anything, collect because someone has
> attached a dollar sign to thier desired items,and if you cannot see that to

maybe they do. however, i think it's obvious now (because of the length of
this thread) that lots of people collect lots of things for lots of reasons.
it's just way too hard to pigeonhole everyone.

> it. But really, you mean to tell me so many people are after Vlix, because
> they are in love with this figure or is it the status attached to it and
> the big dollar signs? But I forgot people are completists? That's why
> most don't have the Takara large figures yet right? I don't claim that

apples and oranges. collecting droids and ewoks is an extension of collecting
the movie figures - if people choose to go that far. thus, vlix is a
"necessary" part of it. the takara figures are akin to the 12" dolls which
aren't considered part of the standard action figure line.

you don't have to "like" vlix to want him. i don't "like" the droids
cartoons, but that doesn't mean i still don't want the figures. i want the
figures becasue i think they are part of a whole. some people agree while
some people disagree.

> everyone is after every piece for speculation or less noble intents, but a
> lot of people are swept up into a frenzy when the hear "rare" and it seems
> to dictate their buying habits, that's all. That is all I ever said,

of course i've seen this happen, but the *vast* majority of the rare items you
are complaining about are going to people that really want them. i know this
because i know lots of those people!

> people seem to get off on rartiy and even you and others admmitted that.
> "oh, Why collect what everyone and their brother has" So why are you
> collecting then? Because no one else has it, because you really like the
> item or just the vast majority of people do not have anything like it. I

it's just fun to have a collection that's unique and different. when you have
been into the hobby for years your tastes can and usually do change. we all
only have a certain amount of money to spend and a certain amount of space to
dedicate to this so we have to be particular. i think they only guy that this
doesn't apply to is sansweet, but he is the left-field exception to all of
this. i'm glad we have a guy like steve in the hobby, but i don't think many
people aspire to be like him. i know i wouldn't want 3/4 of what he has
because i have no interest in it. nearly all of the collectors i know are
very serious about the hobby and very focused on what they want to buy.

> analyse what they are saying. Anyone who starts saying that they are
> collecting because no one else has it, seems pretty selfabsorbed and are
> definitely not collecting for the right reasons,

hogwash. you are trying to stereotype tons of folks with a single comment.
i guarantee you that there are very serious people in the hobby that are
collecting things contrary to the way you perceive them.

> it's not that it's star wars it's that it's rare.

again you have to learn the subtleties of the term "rare". is something cool
just because it is star wars or a certain character? i don't think so, but
many folks would disagree with me while many would agree with me. you can't
lump everyone in with the same comment.

just because some people are speculating on rare items doesn't mean that
others are. sure, i spend lots of money on my collection and you can bet i'm
conscious of it's present and future value. i am not made of money. people
don't buy a house, trash it, and then buy another one. we have to make our
dollar work for us. i don't think you can just sit there and say that someone
who is concerned with how much they spend or what they buy makes them a
speculator.

there are speculators in *every* facet of sw collecting. there are
speculators in every facet of every kind of collecting. that's just how it
is. however, you can lump everyone who has "similar" buying habits or tastes
into one description.

i think you are spending too much time at toy shows with people who aren't
serious collectors. i've been there so i know and i think this is why you
have such a jaded view of collecting. the serious collectors are putting lots
of time and effort into the hobby because they enjoy it and they want to
promote it. of course the law of supply and demand pervades the hobby just as
it does in nearly every facet of life. however, it doesn't mean that it
reigns supreme.

-chris

Click here for part 4 of this thread.