Tomart Ripp Off!!

woods01
April 14 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

"MegatronForever" wrote:
> Funny how with that being said I remember getting a call about year ago
> from an "advanced" collector, who may or may not participate on this group,
> selling a complete set of POTF coins and another smaller set of rare coins.
> When I politely told him I was not interested, he insulted me ( a non coin
> collector) on his assumption that I was primarily interested in loose
> items. Take that at face value for what ever you want, but I like to think
> that "advanced collectors" don't relate and are kinda smug towards "new"
> collectors because they see the hobby differently and kind of mask their
> own difference by supposing a divide between themselves and those
> collectors who haven't comt to or never will what supposed advanced
> collectors do.

Although you've taken some fire for saying this, it is true that there are
a lot of elitists around in this newsgroup and in other areas. I've read more
than a few posts with messages like "anyone who collects potf2 can afford to
collect vintage" or messages hacking the new line. Noticably these comments
only appear in rasscv and not always in rasscm. Now there is truth in those
words when you see the odd post when someone has a giant potf2 collection
stocked with 12" exclusives they want to trade for 12 backs or something. But
just collect what you like. I bet some people have become high end collectors
because they lack storage space for the masses, or because thats all thats
left to get, maybe a few want to hide your obsession from you wife so you
blow the big bucks on a very select group of items and some just want to make
a buck or think they are cool because they paid $1000 for a SW Fett or for
unproduced Ewok that no one would've wanted if it was really produced. Whether
they are a snob or not, as long as they enjoy what they are doing, then let
them collect what they like.

I've been collecting since before the THX video craze. I don't have a complete
set of anything and a lot is in less than mint condition, and nothing I have
would make Gus Lopez eat a proof card :-) But I have the best collection in
the world because its mine.

-John

Michael Mierzwa
April 14 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

John Wooten wrote:
> >If you think that danger is present, then have you considered doing
> >something to prevent it?

> like what? the very presence of this thread and the people in it are enough
> to bring out the wacko squad

The point is to: 1) prevent the wackos from growing, and 2) maybe cause
the wackos to see themselves. Being agressive doesn't work with them,
but other ways *might*. I think it is worth the effort, afterall what
do you have to loose? :)

> >Asking more questions, than providing answers might help steer people
> >stuck in a rut to move on or discover their own answers. At least I've
> >found I respond great to when people ask for me to think through my own
> >logic. ;)

> What am I going to ask questions about? I'm perfectly clear on this.

But is everybody else?!?! A question is not always a request for
information, sometimes it too is a statement or a tool for learning.

> I don't
> care what anyone else collects and I should hope they certainly don't care
> what I would think about it. People should collect whatever makes them happy,
> whether it's SW bedsheets, wax protos or SW buddies.

Ah, but thus far you've cared enough about the hobby to reply to these
threads. If you ask them simple questions like, "Why is collecting a
prototype bad?" they might just answer your questions. In fact, the
next time I see somebody lay down some assumptions like these, *I* will
ask them and see what they have to say! :)

Michael Mierzwa

Michael Mierzwa
April 14 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

stunt...@ols.net wrote:
> i'd venture to say that gus is the same way though i won't speak for him.
> all i know is that guy gets tons of email everyday and still manages to crank
> out magazine articles, work on the web page and *still* beat me to buying
> things! :^)

One word: Droids! ;)

Michael Mierzwa
-and you thought those kit-bashed cans weren't good for anyting!

Michael Mierzwa
April 14 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

Chris Fawcett wrote:
> As Richard says, if Joe is not a collector, he'll walk into the room and
> not be impressed at all. Even if I tell him how rare and amazing
> something is, he still won't understand and/or care. He's not a star
> wars collector.

But if Joe is a collector, what then? If Chris G. is right (and others)
that SW collectors are very diverse, then Joe could have any sort of
experience or not with a prototype collection.

I mean, if Joe is not a SW collector, then why not bring in a frog named
Kermit instead ... they are smaller and easier to lead around from
collection to collection. The point of "Joe" is to allow SW collectors
to think about what their peers ... *all* of them, might think about
their collections.

> So that brings me to this point. Who are these high-end collectors
> showing their stuff off to to gain this status?? It must be other SW
> collectors right?? So how do they know these other SW collectors?
> Probably from being involved in the hobby and getting to know people.

I don't know. The "Joe" experiment wasn't about high-end collectors
showing their stuff, it was about a hypothetical guy/gal (er that would
be Jane) walking into say another hypothetical collector's private
display and then making some crude assumptions about the collector.

Again, the *point* is to look at oneself through the eyes of another!
Sometimes people need to step back and do this. What can it hurt?

Michael Mierzwa

Andy
April 14 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

Who Originally started this "Tomart Rip Off!!" so long ago?
I want his name!!

Matthew Templeton
April 14 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

It was I the yoda man! I felt some teeth grinding in your pursuit of
me, but Hey I just posted this once everyone else has given this the
long life that it has! Best wishes and take care,

Matt

Michael Mierzwa
April 14 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

John Wooten wrote:
> I've asked this question and others like this several times during this
> thread. None of the complainers seem to have a comment. Makes me wonder how
> interested in discussion they really are.

:( Then I guess you have done nearly everything we can think of. Oh
well.

Michael Mierzwa

Gus Lopez
April 14 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

>i'd venture to say that gus is the same way though i won't speak for him.

I agree completely (wonderful post, btw).

Gus

John Wooten
April 15 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

>Ah, but thus far you've cared enough about the hobby to reply to these
>threads. If you ask them simple questions like, "Why is collecting a
>prototype bad?" they might just answer your questions. In fact, the
>next time I see somebody lay down some assumptions like these, *I* will
>ask them and see what they have to say! :)

I've asked this question and others like this several times during this
thread. None of the complainers seem to have a comment. Makes me wonder how
interested in discussion they really are.

John

John Wooten
April 15 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

>Although you've taken some fire for saying this, it is true that there are
>a lot of elitists around in this newsgroup and in other areas. I've read more
>than a few posts with messages like "anyone who collects potf2 can afford to
>collect vintage" or messages hacking the new line. Noticably these comments

Can you explain to me how this statement is negative? One misconception about
vintage collecting is that it's more expensive, which is not necessarily the
case. You may also want to bring up the *many* times I and others keep saying
"collect whatever makes you happy." Why do statements like these get ignored?

>stocked with 12" exclusives they want to trade for 12 backs or something. But
>just collect what you like. I bet some people have become high end collectors

this is what several people have been saying for days. is your news filter
screwed up?!? I must be the only one reading these.

>But I have the best collection in the world because its mine.

I could not *possibly* agree more. Well said.

John

Mike B
April 15 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

Hey Stuntboy: What the hell are you talking about? bashing? Using
something against you and Gus?
What? Damn, your post was long. A little defensive? A little fanatical
perhaps?
Wow. Are you trying to reason with yourself, because I don't care about
95% of what you said. Go back and look at the few posts ahead of mine,
then go back and read mine.
This newsgroup is too damn tense.

John Wooten
April 15 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

>Anyone ever think on this group that it is okay to collect POTF2?

duh, I believe it's been said nearly 1000 times now...collect whatever makes
you happy? it doesn't matter if its potf2, 12 backs, sw bedsheets, video
games, prototypes, bend-ums WHATEVER. Have you even been listening?

>John, those are exactly the comments that get people annoyed and start
>thinking up elitist tendencies because you COME OFF as a "snot". There is

Well, I'm sorry but I'm sick of repeating myself only to have someone come in
to make the same incorrect assumptions. Just as you did above. We're just
going in circles. That's what's frustrating.

>no need to insult the guy, he just sees things differently, something you

I didn't insult anyone.

>can't seem to understand , and somehting that seems to be a big offense on

baloney.

>this group. Maybe you're the only one reading these posts? Seems you
>tactfully ignored a couple of well thought out messages, yourself.

sure i did. yeah, i'm always known for not commenting on
stuff...yeah...right. If I have missed something, point me to them. I'd be
glad to give my opinion.

John

Chris Fawcett
April 15 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

MegatronForever wrote:
> > If this is the way you feel about high-end collectors, then why do you
> want to be one?
> No greed, no competition, no envious on lookers, no "high end" delusions.
> Just if I think it is something I would enjoy, well than it might make a
> worthwhile addition to my collection. I'm not sure why you think I would
> be driven by greed in seeking protos, for one certain items I would like to

Ummm. Then why do you think the *rest* of the high end collectors are
driven by greed in seeking protos????????? We're just like you. We
pick up proto pieces we think are cool, or we think we'll enjoy. Same
thing.

Cj

Chris Fawcett
April 15 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> Although you've taken some fire for saying this, it is true that there are
> a lot of elitists around in this newsgroup and in other areas. I've read more
> than a few posts with messages like "anyone who collects potf2 can afford to
> collect vintage" or messages hacking the new line. Noticably these comments

How is saying "anyone who collects potf2 can afford to collect vintage"
being elitists? IMO, it's just trying to deispell some common
misconceptions about vintage collecting. Ie: That it has to be
expensive.

Not trying to be arguementative here, I just wonder why you think
this...

Cj

Chris Fawcett
April 15 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> Well isn't it-I mean you can get a boxed TIE for $19 bucks or a boxed HOth
> Playset for $15, the vintage counterparts to these items would range
> anywhere from $100-$200 dollars in mint sealed or even mint open boxed
> conditions. I mean sure you can get common loose vintage for under five
> bucks, but often they are beat to hell with no weapons or accesories. So
> in that case, vintage may be in some peoples reach, but people also like
> quality, and don't want someone else's trash.

Well, here's my take on the vintage is more expensive issue:

1) Vintage items need not be as expensive as a price guide says. I've
gotten many great deals by learning the hobby and finding the right
items from the right people. A little bit of local advertising, for
example, can go a long way to getting some cheap vintage stuff. There
are *many* methods to acquiring vintage items, not just the
Pick-Up-Toy-Shop-And-Pay-Book-Price method

2) You can make the vintage hobby work for you. For example, if you
can pick up an entire collection on the cheap from someone who's had it
sitting around in their basement for years, you can often sell off half
the stuff and make back your whole investment and keep a lot for
yourself. And it's basically FREE that way (or really cheap). You just
have to have a little bit of capital to work with. You can make the
vintage hobby work for you, which can't really be done in POTF2 (unless
you're a big time scalper).

3) OK, the public unveiling of my little theory. :) I like to call it
Happiness Points. :) (I know it sounds dorky, but bear with me). Now,
this will vary (obviously) from person to person, but for me, one carded
vintage figure (let's say worth $100), brings me *way* more joy than 50
POTF2 figures. So, maybe I assign 50 Happiness Points (HP) to a given
vintage carded figure and 1 point each for a POTF2 figure. So, I'd pay
$100 for that vintage figure, or $2/HP. For 50 POTF2 figures (same
amount of HPs, 50) I'd pay $250, or $5/HP. Now, see how much cheap
vintage is for me??? I get more bang for my buck by collecting vintage
because it makes me happier with my collection. I think many people
miss this point and just look at the straight dollar numbers.

4) Many POTF2 collectors have never even tried vintage. I've collected
POTF2 and vintage, and I chose vintage. I just wish that some of the
POTF2-only collectors would at least invest $25-$50 or so in vintage
just to see if they like it or not. I think that's my biggest problem.
A lot of people get this "Vintage is expensive, so I'll collect POTF2"
attitude without ever even *trying* vintage. And they don't realize
that vintage isn't really as expensive as they think it is. How will
they know what they enjoy more if they don't try both worlds??? If they
have tried both and like POTF2 better, then I say more power to 'em!!!
And I'll support POTF2 collecting 110% for that person.

> Anyone ever think on this group that it is okay to collect POTF2?

Sure. See #4. :)

Cj

Chris Fawcett
April 15 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

Michael Mierzwa wrote:
> > So that brings me to this point. Who are these high-end collectors
> > showing their stuff off to to gain this status?? It must be other SW
> > collectors right?? So how do they know these other SW collectors?
> > Probably from being involved in the hobby and getting to know people.

> I don't know. The "Joe" experiment wasn't about high-end collectors
> showing their stuff, it was about a hypothetical guy/gal (er that would
> be Jane) walking into say another hypothetical collector's private
> display and then making some crude assumptions about the collector.

> Again, the *point* is to look at oneself through the eyes of another!
> Sometimes people need to step back and do this. What can it hurt?

Yes, I understand what you're saying but I think you missed my point. I
was making an arguement that the the idea that certain high-end
collectors collect *only* for status doesn't hold water.

If they only collect for status, then they're collecting to gain
recognition from their piers, who are other Star Wars collectors. But
they never could have *begun* collecting for that reason, because at the
initial beginning of their collecting, they probably had no SW collector
friends to want to try to impress. See what I'm saying?? Any given
collector had to have some other reason to *start* collecting, it
couldn't have been *only* for status because they didn't have a group or
piers to gain status from yet. Soooo, there must be something more to
their collecting. Granted, there may be some status issues going on,
but there is definetely a love of the movies or toys or collecting in
general or *something* underneath it that got them into the hobby in the
first place.

Cj

bswain1
April 15 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

stunt...@ols.net wrote:
> gus and myself found
> prototype toys very interesting and wanted to delve into the background and
> history of them. a large portion of his web page is dedicated to them
because
> we wanted to do it. we wanted to assemble and hand out information that was
> previously unknown or unaccessible to the general collecting public an to
us.
> lots of work went into researching and cross referencing the information and
> putting it up in formatted pages that make sense. afd and afn had shown
some
> protos before the sw collector's archive exploded with them, but the
> information was usually scant. now everyone takes all that for granted and
> all these terms and all these items, but i can assure you that the
information
> was not cut and dry like you see it. we learn as we go and change it if
> necessary. now many people are into these things and that's cool. ron has
> added lots of information to the site and many other collectors have helped
> out with information and photos - that's what makes it such a great site and
> such a collaborative effort. that's what make the archive such a great
> encyclopedia of knowledge. even a virtual museum.

> i can't even begin to tally the hours and money spent working on that page
and
> getting all this information together - flying out to cincinnati to visit
> steve d.,tom n., tomart, the earth, and a few other people. we did this
twice
> though the second time was also to meet up with internet collectors as well.
> if gus and all the other contributors didn't care about the hobby then
> toysrgus.com would be a pale shadow of what it is.

chris, gus, ron, john, etc., believe me when I tell you that there are many of
us out here that greatly appreciate all the work that has gone into the
archive. When I decided to start collecting protos, and wanted to know
exactly what different types of protos were out there, I was quickly schooled
through the pages of the archive (and the star wars action figure web). When
it comes to what one likes and doesn't like, negative comments tend to be
voiced much more often than their positive counterparts. Therefore, we
usually only end up hearing the complaints and the "prototypes are stupid"
arguements. I wouldn't necessarily say that it is a majority view.

people see prototypes promoted in the archive and think that they have to
> collect them or aspire to collect them. the fact is that they are HISTORY
and
> we are archaeologists of sorts. if the history of the line doesn't concern
> you then that's your perogative, but don't try to use it against us.
> there are many galleries in the archive. personally i find the history of
the
> toy line more interesting than the toys themselves. these prototypes aren't
> always as aesthetically pleasing as their production counterparts, but their
> beauty lies in their purpose.

Tell me about it. I recently picked up a set of early-bird first shots. The
soft paint on the luke has rubbed off in quite a few places, but this set is
about as historic as it gets in the Kenner Star Wars line. These were the
protos that were used for Kenner's promotional photography of the early-bird
set (maybe we should call it the "EB set" just as we've adopted VC jawa and DT
luke...just a thought). That is what collecting is all about (IMHO, of
course).

> i've been labeled an "elitist" because all i want to buy and talk about are
> non-production kenner items (be it prototypes or displays or catalogs or
> whatever). items that many may consider out of their reach financially
and/or
> acquisition-wise.

The thrill of the hunt is what makes this kind of collecting so attractive.
It is so exciting to turn up an item that few eyes have ever seen. Even in
more common items this is the case. I have enjoyed completing my C9 12-back
collection piece by piece (still need sandpeople) more than I would have if I
had bought them all at once.

> > collecting is fun, and that really is the bottom line, isn't it?

> yes. and "fun" is *definitely* in the eyes of the beholder.

AMEN BROTHER!!

I haven't wanted to jump on this thread, but I think its gotten kind of
ridiculous considering all the finger pointing and the like. Why does it
matter to some what other's motivations are for collecting? We don't have to
all agree on why we should be collecting. Nostalgia, completism, investment
(yes, I said the word investment), history, love of the sw franchise, bragging
rights....yada, yada, yada. If you enjoy it, do it, and stop being jealous of
what other's have!!

Brennan

bswain1
April 15 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

> This newsgroup is too damn tense.

True, true, true...but I guess that's what makes it so much fun!

Brennan

John Wooten
April 15 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

>Well isn't it-I mean you can get a boxed TIE for $19 bucks or a boxed HOth
>Playset for $15, the vintage counterparts to these items would range
>anywhere from $100-$200 dollars in mint sealed or even mint open boxed
>conditions. I mean sure you can get common loose vintage for under five
>bucks, but often they are beat to hell with no weapons or accesories. So
>in that case, vintage may be in some peoples reach, but people also like
>quality, and don't want someone else's trash.

Of course, on an item per item basis, in most cases, potf2 is cheaper. How
about some of the CS12 two packs? Or how about adding stuff together and
realizing you've spent $1500 on stuff when say, you've always wanted a 12 back
Han. I know this happened to me to an extent. I was buying the new stuff
faithfully and realized that over half of the things I had wanted for years, I
could have bought with that money and been happier. Would this be how
everyone thinks or should think? No way, but I hear a lot of people say how
cool something is that's vintage and how badly they'd love to have one, but
they can't afford it when they've a room full of potf2. If a person is just
as happy with the potf2 stuff, fine and dandy. I sure don't think anyone's
inferior based on *anything* they collect and this should be painfully clear
by now. Except maybe Barbie I guess :^)

John

John Wooten
April 15 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

>Wow. Are you trying to reason with yourself, because I don't care about
>95% of what you said.

So, you represent everyone else, too?

>This newsgroup is too damn tense.

Maybe it's because a lot of it's members have to constantly deal with the sort
of judgemental bullshit and jealousy showin in those recent threads. It gets
old.

John

Michael Mierzwa
April 15 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

Chris Fawcett wrote:
> Yes, I understand what you're saying but I think you missed my point. I
> was making an arguement that the the idea that certain high-end
> collectors collect *only* for status doesn't hold water.

Argh! *thawcks head against keyboard*

Of course, from *your* point of view. All along I've been saying "Joe"
might not make that connection. And if he doesn't, and if he makes
assumptions about something that people get defensive about, the best
response it to try and have them develop the very same arguement you
just provided ... chances are they won't listen to it until you ask
enough questions *leading* them to it.

> If they only collect for status, then they're collecting to gain
> recognition from their piers, who are other Star Wars collectors. But
> they never could have *begun* collecting for that reason, because at the
> initial beginning of their collecting, they probably had no SW collector
> friends to want to try to impress. See what I'm saying??

But the issue is not if I see this, but if *we* can help Joe to see
this. If we just tell him, he'll return again, again, again, and again
and might as John suggested become a "wacko"! ;)

As for having friend to impress at the begining of collecting, well
actually that isn't always *not* true. When I started collecting in
1978, I had plenty of friends who collected as well. Of course we're
not here to talk about me and back then I collected to play with the
blood toys ... which ironically is largely what I do today <--- NOTE:
this doesn't mean that I give a hoot what other people do with their
purchases, but Joe might!

> Any given
> collector had to have some other reason to *start* collecting, it
> couldn't have been *only* for status because they didn't have a group or
> piers to gain status from yet.

Fancy art colletors don't always start for other reasons, so actually
start collecting art because it is fashionable. But again, we both know
trying to convince people of these things is hard, that is why I keep
arguing that if we think of Joe, then we might be better equiped to
communicate with him and maybe have him convince himself ... it really
works in other areas. Many times I have "Joed" people and many times I
have been "Joed" ... most in relation to teaching, but the students who
I "Joed" always seemed to remember what they figured out on their own
and do much better than those that I just flat out told how the process
works.

Michael Mierzwa

Chris Fawcett
April 15 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

Michael Mierzwa wrote:
> Argh! *thawcks head against keyboard*

> Of course, from *your* point of view. All along I've been saying "Joe"

I'm not talking about a point of view here. I'm talking about a solid
arguement, not an opinion.

> might not make that connection. And if he doesn't, and if he makes
> assumptions about something that people get defensive about, the best

I'm not saying he wouldn't come to the same conclusion that I would.
I'm just saying that my arguement is solid, whether or not he believes
it. I'm not talking about opinions here, I'm talking about logic.

> response it to try and have them develop the very same arguement you
> just provided ... chances are they won't listen to it until you ask
> enough questions *leading* them to it.

I don't care if they listen or not. :) I'm just putting my arguement
out there. If they choose not to read it, there's nothing I can do
about it.

> But the issue is not if I see this, but if *we* can help Joe to see
> this. If we just tell him, he'll return again, again, again, and again
> and might as John suggested become a "wacko"! ;)

Right.... Which is why I posted it. I don't get this. Isn't my
explaining this here exactly what you're saying?? That we should help
Joe to see? That's why I posted this.

> As for having friend to impress at the begining of collecting, well
> actually that isn't always *not* true. When I started collecting in
> 1978, I had plenty of friends who collected as well. Of course we're

Right, some people might have some collecting friends ahead of time.
But I'd bet that *most* of their friends at the time they started
collecting would actually look down upon their collecting or at best not
understand it at all. Soooo, there must be something deeper driving
them to start collecting than just for a status symbol.

Cj

rlcox
April 15 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage

If I ever see Joe I swear I'm going to kill him.

Richard

Click here for part 8 of this thread.