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cfawcett



Reged: 11/06/00
Loc: North Carolina
Warning - Fake hardopy prototypes discovered
      #4343930 - 09/21/10 09:06 AM

Rebelscum community,

I, as well as some other affected and concerned parties, need to bring a very important issue up to this community in regards to a widespread proliferation of fake prototypes that has surfaced recently. This appears to have been going on for at least five years, but it has only been in the past few months that people have started comparing notes in order to bring the truth to the surface. A collector by the name of Scott McWilliams, who lives near Orlando, Florida, has been selling fake hardcopy prototypes and possibly wax sculptings to collectors. These include both painted and unpainted hardcopies in materials visually similar to carbalon, dynacast and other less common vintage materials, but all purported to be authentic from legitimate Kenner sources. If you are a member of other forums or clubs, or a web master, we would ask that you please disseminate this information to as many people as possible so the community can be aware to be careful when buying hardcopy prototypes.

Some of the physical evidence which has been gathered thus far is outlined below:

1. Some “Hardcopies” with parting lines which match those on production figures and which sometimes mimic production flaws.

2. Some “Hardcopies” which are not sized correctly or have limbs which are not sized proportionately to the torsos.

3. Some “Hardcopies” have muddy or fuzzy details that are otherwise crisp and precise on known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.

4. Some “Hardcopies” have specific details that are cast incorrectly that do not match the same details on known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.

5. Some “Hardcopies” appear to have been made using poor casting practices which yield numerous surface flaws quite unlike known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.

6. Some “Hardcopies” show evidence of filled foot peg holes.

7. Some “Hardcopies” show evidence of sanded off copyright dates and lettering.

8. Some “Hardcopies” have poor placement and alignment of pins between the torso and limbs which is inconsistent with known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.

9. Some “Hardcopies” appear to have been cast with materials that are unlike known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies. This is most apparent on internal material features visible inside peg holes or when looking at broken parts.

10. Some “Hardcopies” are cast in material colors that don't quite match dynacast or carbalon of known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.

11. Some painted “Hardcopies” with poor quality paint jobs that do not match the detail and fineness of known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.

12. Some painted “Hardcopies” with a different type of paint which is too glossy when compared to known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.

13. Some painted “Hardcopies” with numerous air bubbles and globs of material which is inconsistent with the Kenner practice of painting only very good castings.

14. The majority of these painted “Hardcopies” show very little to no signs of age or scratching which is almost always apparent on known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies from 25-33 years ago.

While the above is a generic description of flaws seen across many fake “Hardcopies”, examples discovered so far range in quality from being quite different from known original examples and easy to spot to being of very high quality and difficult to spot.

Some buyers have agreed to come on to this thread with their figures and post specific examples. Beyond the physical evidence, statements made indicate a pattern of lies about sources and provenance. In several cases, pieces were claimed to lead back to specific former Kenner employees, however, when contacted for independent verification, those employees claimed either to never have had the pieces, or we were able to trace the provenance elsewhere. In other cases, items were sold claiming to be pieces shown on the Star Wars Collectors Archive when in fact the ownership of the Archive piece could be traced elsewhere. In nearly every single case known thus far, secrecy about each transaction and the transfer of ownership was insisted upon. There were explicit requirements not to show items to specific authorities or collectors - people who actually have experience with items of this type and who may have been able to spot potential fraud occurring.

This post has two purposes.

First, to warn everyone in the community to be very careful when buying items like hardcopies. Not every single hardcopy sold by Scott is a fake. He did have some legitimate prototype pieces.

Second, we're trying to help collectors who may have received fake pieces. If you have a piece you think may be questionable, please contact me at hcscam@12back.com

I'm sure there will be lots of questions and I, as well as others, will attempt to answer them. I realize that some of these terms may be unknown to all collectors. Therefore, it would be prudent to get a quick lesson by reading the Lexicon at The Star Wars Collectors Archive.

http://theswca.com/lexicon.html

Thank you.

Cj

--------------------
WTB: First Shot Warok, Palitoy ESB Han Hoth, PBP Han Hoth (ESB & ROTJ)

Vintage Toy Archive: http://www.12back.com

Edited by cfawcett (09/21/10 05:04 PM)


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Rebojazz



Reged: 06/08/06
Loc: Wheeling, WV
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: cfawcett]
      #4343954 - 09/21/10 09:42 AM

Chris,

Do you know if this Scott has been selling them on Ebay or here on the forums? If so, do you have an id name?

Thanks for the info!

--------------------
Steven A. Weimer,
JediconWV Co-Organizer
www.jediconwv.net


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CloudCity_Gangzr



Reged: 04/26/07
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Rebojazz]
      #4343989 - 09/21/10 10:24 AM

OH Damn! Here we go again. My mind immediately raced to this thread. I was told that Jordan from HH helped him sell those Ewoks. I’m not trying to fire up the rumor mill, and I apologize if that is untrue. I hope they were real.

It seems like Scott's name has always been shrouded in controversy. The wax thing is pretty scary. Are there even enough known legit waxes to give a verdict on their legitimacy? This is horrible news, it has a billyboy feel to it.

-Chad

Edited by CloudCity_Gangzr (09/21/10 10:27 AM)


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HollywoodHeroes



Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: CloudCity_Gangzr]
      #4344015 - 09/21/10 10:44 AM

Chad-

I am currently traveling right now, so please excuse the short response.

I did not help Scott sell the set of Unproduced Ewoks listed in that thread. That was Scott's deal entirely.

Scott sold some prototypes from my booth at CV, where many collectors were in attendance and were able to inspect the items firsthand and speak to Scott.When he was in the booth, Scott made himself open to questions and spent time speaking to collectors.

When personally asked about items that I could not identify or give more information on... I directed potential buyers to Scott.

The set of unproduced Ewoks was sold by Scott several months ago, on his own.

Hope this helps-
Jordan

--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com

Edited by HollywoodHeroes (09/21/10 10:51 AM)


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JohnA



Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: CloudCity_Gangzr]
      #4344035 - 09/21/10 11:01 AM

CloudCity_Gangzr wrote:
The wax thing is pretty scary. Are there even enough known legit waxes to give a verdict on their legitimacy?



There are a lot of waxes on the Archive that are currently in collections, so, yes there are legit waxes to compare. I've seen at least 25+ to compare to. There's also questionable Micro waxes and a lot of those are out there also.

I'm in talks right now with Scott. I had hoped he would be agreeable but at this point he told me it was a consipiracy to take him down and that there was nothing wrong with the pieces. I'm going to be out about $4,500. 2 pieces are confirmed fake and 2 are still being looked at but are looking fake. Other data is being looked at and tested to confirm 100% but it does not look good. I emailed Scott hoping he'd make good but he basically told me they were real, he wasn't palying with these politics and good luck to me. He told 2 other people that the ecomony is bad and people are just trying to get their money back on good pieces. That attitude is terrible. I told him he should be going after his sources and trying to get his own back instead of placing blame on people trying to clear this mess up. Every chance has been given to Scott to make good on this but he seems to want to place the blame now. Some people have been given refunds and others given trades but once it came out just how many were bad he decided to just stop replying to many and to tell others good luck. I hope he'll reconsider as this is a bad situation and potentially one worth tens of thousands of dollars. I'm not at all happy that somebody who told me he was a friend is basically telling me I'll have to live with $4,500 worth of fakes.

John

--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character

-Shai Hulud


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Joe_O



Reged: 09/27/04
Loc: Romania
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: JohnA]
      #4344049 - 09/21/10 11:14 AM

So sorry to hear this guys, wish you all the best in getting to the bottom of it all and I hope more money can be claimed back, terrible news indeed

--------------------
Feedback
AFA U Grade - Read


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_Robbie_



Reged: 01/26/04
Loc: N.Ireland, UK
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Joe_O]
      #4344058 - 09/21/10 11:18 AM

This is very bad. Looks like a lot of collectors are going to have to evaluate their 'prototypes'.

--------------------
Despite the high cost of living, it remains popular

ROBBIE MULLAN


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RebelChris



Reged: 12/01/06
Loc: WY
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: JohnA]
      #4344068 - 09/21/10 11:25 AM

JohnA wrote:
CloudCity_Gangzr wrote:
The wax thing is pretty scary. Are there even enough known legit waxes to give a verdict on their legitimacy?



There are a lot of waxes on the Archive that are currently in collections, so, yes there are legit waxes to compare. I've seen at least 25+ to compare to. There's also questionable Micro waxes and a lot of those are out there also.

I'm in talks right now with Scott. I had hoped he would be agreeable but at this point he told me it was a consipiracy to take him down and that there was nothing wrong with the pieces. I'm going to be out about $4,500. 2 pieces are confirmed fake and 2 are still being looked at but are looking fake. Other data is being looked at and tested to confirm 100% but it does not look good. I emailed Scott hoping he'd make good but he basically told me they were real, he wasn't palying with these politics and good luck to me. He told 2 other people that the ecomony is bad and people are just trying to get their money back on good pieces. That attitude is terrible. I told him he should be going after his sources and trying to get his own back instead of placing blame on people trying to clear this mess up. Every chance has been given to Scott to make good on this but he seems to want to place the blame now. Some people have been given refunds and others given trades but once it came out just how many were bad he decided to just stop replying to many and to tell others good luck. I hope he'll reconsider as this is a bad situation and potentially one worth tens of thousands of dollars. I'm not at all happy that somebody who told me he was a friend is basically telling me I'll have to live with $4,500 worth of fakes.

John



John, that's terrible news.

I'm having a hard time believing that he's gone the conspiracy theory route. Ugh!

I sent some emails to CJ.

--------------------
On the lookout for Rebel Commando pre-production and other interesting items.
And if you have want to get rid of your Jar-Jar pre-production shoot me a PM


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KevinA



Reged: 08/29/05
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: HollywoodHeroes]
      #4344101 - 09/21/10 12:05 PM

HollywoodHeroes wrote:
Chad-

I am currently traveling right now, so please excuse the short response.

I did not help Scott sell the set of Unproduced Ewoks listed in that thread. That was Scott's deal entirely.

Scott sold some prototypes from my booth at CV, where many collectors were in attendance and were able to inspect the items firsthand and speak to Scott.When he was in the booth, Scott made himself open to questions and spent time speaking to collectors.

When personally asked about items that I could not identify or give more information on... I directed potential buyers to Scott.

The set of unproduced Ewoks was sold by Scott several months ago, on his own.

Hope this helps-
Jordan




I don't know any of the parties involved in this situation and I didn't go to CV.

But you've got a guy being accused of scamming out his friends and peers...same guy being accused of being a scammer worked a booth where theft occurred.

My apologies if I am completely out to lunch here but just putting 2 and 2 together


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Broc



Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: JohnA]
      #4344103 - 09/21/10 12:06 PM

Include me in with the other affected parties. I bought many pieces from Scott over the last 3 years and spent several thousand dollars with him. Earlier this year some of those pieces were proved to be fake and cast off of production figures. Scott was quite accomodating and gave me quick refunds for them. Unfortunately, I've now had some other pieces that came from him examined and they have been confirmed to be fake as well. There is also one other piece still to be looked at that appears to be bad but the verdict is still out on it.

I will be out around $6,500 at this point if all pieces are deemed fake. I've been in contact with Scott recently and he gave me the same conspiracy theory story and told me he would not be giving anymore refunds. Said he was leaving the hobby and thanked me for many great years.

Like John, I hope he will reconsider his stance on this and refund me as well as any others affected. It is not any of our fault if he was duped by his sources and he needs to make it right. This is a terrible and most unfortunate situation for not only myself but for the hobby as a whole.

--------------------
Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)


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cfawcett



Reged: 11/06/00
Loc: North Carolina
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: KevinA]
      #4344127 - 09/21/10 12:36 PM

Kevin,

I see what you're thinking, but the pieces stolen from the C5 booth were Scott's pieces.

Cj

--------------------
WTB: First Shot Warok, Palitoy ESB Han Hoth, PBP Han Hoth (ESB & ROTJ)

Vintage Toy Archive: http://www.12back.com


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BruceW



Reged: 09/25/03
Loc: NC
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Broc]
      #4344135 - 09/21/10 12:45 PM

Broc wrote:
Include me in with the other affected parties. I bought many pieces from Scott over the last 3 years and spent several thousand dollars with him. Earlier this year some of those pieces were proved to be fake and cast off of production figures. Scott was quite accomodating and gave me quick refunds for them. Unfortunately, I've now had some other pieces that came from him examined and they have been confirmed to be fake as well. There is also one other piece still to be looked at that appears to be bad but the verdict is still out on it.

I will be out around $6,500 at this point if all pieces are deemed fake. I've been in contact with Scott recently and he gave me the same conspiracy theory story and told me he would not be giving anymore refunds. Said he was leaving the hobby and thanked me for many great years.

Like John, I hope he will reconsider his stance on this and refund me as well as any others affected. It is not any of our fault if he was duped by his sources and he needs to make it right. This is a terrible and most unfortunate situation for not only myself but for the hobby as a whole.



Ho-lee crap! Wow, Broc (and JohnA), I'm really sorry to hear about this situation! That sucks!

--------------------
"Hel-lo what have we here?"
"Leia."


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JohnA



Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: BruceW]
      #4344147 - 09/21/10 12:53 PM

BruceW wrote:

Ho-lee crap! Wow, Broc (and JohnA), I'm really sorry to hear about this situation! That sucks!



Many thanks for the sympathy, Bruce, but it's way more than us, WAY more. I've talked to only a handful of people so far and this is really a LOT of money. As stated, some pieces are real and some trades and refunds were given but I don't think Scott wants to admit the gravity of this. He's being naive to think that we're all wrong. Some looked bad at first glance, I've had some in my hands that worried me right off the bat, but others looked damn good and only were realized when compared to authentic pieces. Then the differences become glaring. The pieces were obviously pulled from production pieces since details don't match legitimate hardcopies with a rock solid history. During tooling changes are often made to production pieces but all hardcopies should match since they were pulled from the one and only sculpting. If pieces match the production piece and NOT a hardcopy it's just not legit.

John

--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character

-Shai Hulud


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Broc]
      #4344149 - 09/21/10 12:54 PM

Some of the alleged fakes that I've seen are so poor that I'm surprised this didn't break sooner.

Some lessons to be learned here:

1) When a seller asks you to keep a transaction completely secret, especially from certain people, it might be good to question his motives.

2) When an individual suddenly claims to own 200 hardcopies, virtually none of which trace back to verifiable sources, regard it as a red flag.

3) Know where your stuff comes from! Most legit vintage hardcopies can be traced back to one of the following sources:

The Earth
Steve Denny
Intergalactic
Tom Neiheisel
Kim Simmons
One of Ed A's various leads

There are a lot of exceptions, of course, but those have been the major sources.

4) Multiple, complete hardcopies of the same character almost never turn up, especially for pre-ROTJ figures -- and especially not from the same source at the same time. If a seller offers you two Death Squad Commanders, it's a huge red flag. (It's even more of a red flag if those multiple copies are all in different materials).

5) Kenner only painted nice, nearly flawless hardcopies. No painted hardcopy I've ever seen has air bubbles, visible casting flaws, etc.

6) Most of the "unfinished" and/or random hardcopy parts out there came from contacts associated with the old Kenner model shop. Many of them were Ed's contacts. The other sources mostly had complete (and usually painted) hardcopies. If someone offers you random or flaw-ridden parts that cannot be traced back to a good source, regard it as a red flag. The great majority of hardcopies that made it out of Kenner were complete.

7) Hardcopies always, always have better detail than production figures. It's finer, tighter, etc. If the details on something you're looking at are bulbous or muddy, question it.

8) A protomolded figure should not have air bubbles in it. It's injection-molded plastic!

9) As far as I know, legit protomolded parts have not turned up in any quantity. Protomolded figures are virtually always complete, and they're usually fully painted. If someone offers you a protomolded head or arm -- red flag.

This whole thing is going to hit the hobby like one big growing pain.

The alleged culprits will claim they're being taken down unfairly, due to jealousy or "politics" or whatever. It's up to each of you to decide if you believe that.

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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phidias_barrios



Reged: 12/14/05
Loc: los angeles
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: KevinA]
      #4344157 - 09/21/10 12:57 PM

KevinA wrote:


But you've got a guy being accused of scamming out his friends and peers...same guy being accused of being a scammer worked a booth where theft occurred.





Kevin, I think it was Scott's pieces that got stolen or misplaced at Jordan's booth during CV. A dulok shaman and scout hardcopy I believe.

I bought a Bib Fortuna hardcopy piece directly from Scott that turned out to be fake. I was one of the lucky ones that was able to get a refund from him. After that scare, I started checking the other hardcopies in my collection and found another one that looked questionable. This was an IG88 piece. I traced the ownership back to Scott for this piece as well. This piece had the date stamps sanded off the back. I was able to get a refund for this as well. The thing is, at least in my case, Scott's provenance didn't check out for my pieces. The names he gave me refuted ever selling Scott the pieces in question. One of them flat out didn't even know who he was. So again, just speaking for myself, it's hard to argue that the buck doesn't stop with him for this green harvest, brown harvest, or whatever rainbow colored stuff he sold or still has.

I thought I had all of this mess behind me but it looks like I have one more ESB piece in my collection that I didn't know came from Scott. It turns out it did in fact originate from his collection and unfortunately it has also been confirmed as fake under some special tests. I'll be seeking a resolution from the person who sold it to me.


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KevinA



Reged: 08/29/05
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: cfawcett]
      #4344172 - 09/21/10 01:04 PM

cfawcett wrote:
Kevin,

I see what you're thinking, but the pieces stolen from the C5 booth were Scott's pieces.

Cj



I'm a terrible detective! I guess it can still look suspicious given the circumstances - maybe a way to try and get money out of HH. Or a way to hide fakes when asked to see them? Anyways, I don't know Scott so I'll stop there.

Good luck figuring out this mess guys!


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DarthBerizing



Reged: 09/23/08
Loc: Dutchess County, NY
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: phidias_barrios]
      #4344180 - 09/21/10 01:08 PM

To Broc and JohnA (so far) I can't tell you how bad I feel. I'm gutted just reading it, let alone living it.

Caveating with "Innocent until proven guilty" I'll say this:

Florida Statute of Limitations is as follows:

Fraud 4 years
Oral Contract 4 years
Writen Contract 5 years

Contract could be interepreted as the contract to deliver specific goods. His delivery of a fake should therefore deem the contract as unfulfilled.

I'd call an attorney and take a legal action if this is concretly proven to be fake. Ironically (despite both your well deserved places in the hobby) contact CIB to get a 3rd party on record to validate the claim.

Good luck though, nobody should be out the cash except the seller if this turns out to be true.

--------------------
My Feedback
http://threads.rebelscum.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3481796&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#3481796

Edited by DarthBerizing (09/21/10 01:13 PM)


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SABRESEDGE



Reged: 09/29/05
Loc: OHIO
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: DarthBerizing]
      #4344224 - 09/21/10 01:43 PM

This is just another reason why I stay FAR away from prototype stuff. Way too many fakes. I could trust CJ and a few others that I know personally but not many more. I sincerely hope everyone affected gets some sort of reimbursement from the parties in question.

James

--------------------
Star Wars stuff is a horrible investment. Star Wars fans are always broke because that's all they buy is Ramen noodles, peanut butter and Kenny Baker autographs.


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tapuvae



Reged: 12/20/03
Loc: us
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: phidias_barrios]
      #4344230 - 09/21/10 01:48 PM

phidias_barrios wrote:
KevinA wrote:


But you've got a guy being accused of scamming out his friends and peers...same guy being accused of being a scammer worked a booth where theft occurred.





Kevin, I think it was Scott's pieces that got stolen or misplaced at Jordan's booth during CV. A dulok shaman and scout hardcopy I believe.

I bought a Bib Fortuna hardcopy piece directly from Scott that turned out to be fake. I was one of the lucky ones that was able to get a refund from him. After that scare, I started checking the other hardcopies in my collection and found another one that looked questionable. This was an IG88 piece. I traced the ownership back to Scott for this piece as well. This piece had the date stamps sanded off the back. I was able to get a refund for this as well. The thing is, at least in my case, Scott's provenance didn't check out for my pieces. The names he gave me refuted ever selling Scott the pieces in question. One of them flat out didn't even know who he was. So again, just speaking for myself, it's hard to argue that the buck doesn't stop with him for this green harvest, brown harvest, or whatever rainbow colored stuff he sold or still has.

I thought I had all of this mess behind me but it looks like I have one more ESB piece in my collection that I didn't know came from Scott. It turns out it did in fact originate from his collection and unfortunately it has also been confirmed as fake under some special tests. I'll be seeking a resolution from the person who sold it to me.



First, sorry to hear about this, yet another area of collecting being destroyed by fakes. Second, this post brings up an interesting issue. If I bought a piece from X who bought it from Scott and then later sold the piece to Y, where does the buck stop with demanding refunds? If I in good faith sold the piece to Y not knowing the connection to Scott does that make me liable? FWIW, I own no hardcopies and have never bought or sold anything to anyone involved in this. I am speaking hypothetically.

I imagine the perp is destroying evidence rather than reading emails at this point.

Chris

Edited by tapuvae (09/21/10 01:49 PM)


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tapuvae



Reged: 12/20/03
Loc: us
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: SABRESEDGE]
      #4344232 - 09/21/10 01:51 PM

SABRESEDGE wrote:
This is just another reason why I stay FAR away from prototype stuff. Way too many fakes. I could trust CJ and a few others that I know personally but not many more. I sincerely hope everyone affected gets some sort of reimbursement from the parties in question.

James



This relates to my question below your post. If you did buy from a respected source, many of which are posting that they had been duped, who owes a refund to whom? Messy, messy.

Unfortunately, this makes provenance so important that only buying from rock solid, early sources will appease doubts, and these sources are the least likely to ever sell anything anyway.


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tapuvae



Reged: 12/20/03
Loc: us
Re: Warning - Fake hardopy prototypes discovered [Re: cfawcett]
      #4344233 - 09/21/10 01:54 PM

Are there any examples on the SWCA that can be pointed out as fakes to demonstrate some of the issues discussed in this thread? I assume once the dust settles some images will be added here but I'm afraid such info may be kept close to home to prevent better fakes in the future.

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JohnA



Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: tapuvae]
      #4344239 - 09/21/10 01:58 PM

Sadly, because many of us do have good names we have to take care of friends. For example, Broc bought a piece from Scott and I bought from him and JoeY bought from me. It was proven fake a few days ago. I am refunding Joe, and Broc me. None of us think it is fair to stick somebody with a fake so, sadly, the buck is stopping at whomever purchased from Scott and hoping he will refund them. This does not seem to be the case anymore though.

I also let go one of mine in trade. That was also priven fake and now I have to try make good on that trade and I get stuck with the fake piece unless Scott refunds me. It's a mess. At least this is the way some of us are dealing. Not sure if it is the law but some of us want to make sure people are taken care of who bought/traded from/with us.

John

--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character

-Shai Hulud

Edited by JohnA (09/21/10 03:20 PM)


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cfawcett



Reged: 11/06/00
Loc: North Carolina
Re: Warning - Fake hardopy prototypes discovered [Re: tapuvae]
      #4344247 - 09/21/10 02:03 PM

I'm certain that we'll be seeing some pictures on this thread with descriptions of the problems. I'll be posting mine later this week.

--------------------
WTB: First Shot Warok, Palitoy ESB Han Hoth, PBP Han Hoth (ESB & ROTJ)

Vintage Toy Archive: http://www.12back.com


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Shawn_K



Reged: 03/11/05
Loc: Utah
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: JohnA]
      #4344254 - 09/21/10 02:07 PM

This is very disturbing news. I hope that most, if not all of these fakes, can be identified and it works out for everyone to get their money back.

--------------------
Collection|Feedback|U Grade

WTB: Luke Hoth Coin


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Jarrod_Zutton79



Reged: 09/20/02
Loc: New England
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: JohnA]
      #4344269 - 09/21/10 02:21 PM

JohnA wrote:
Sadly, many of us do have good names and are taking care of friends. For example, Broc bought a piece from Scott and I bought from him and JoeY bought from me. It was proven fake a few days ago. I am refundung Joe, and Broc me. None of us think it is fair to stick somebody with a fake so, sadly, the buck is stopping at whomever purchased from Scott and hoping he will refund them. This does not seem to be the case anymore though.

I also let go one of mine in trade. That was also priven fake and now I have to try make good on that trade and I get stuck with the fake piece unless Scott refunds me. It's a mess. At least this is the way some of us are dealing. Not sure if it is the law but some of us want to make sure people are taken care of who bought/traded from/with us.

John



This whole situation is terrible. I am sorry for everyone who is involved. John, I think that the way that you and others are refunding each other and making right between one another is very commendable. We can all only hope that others will follow your lead and do the same, ESPECIALLY Scott.

I know it has been stated that the fakes are hardcopies and possibly wax sculptings, but does anyone know if people who bought first shots and protomolded pieces from Scott are safe? At this point I am sure anyone who has purchased or traded with him in the past (myself included) are a little nervous.

--------------------
Currently looking for Ewoks Preschool and Plush items including protos, proofs, artwork, etc.
My Feedback


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Broc



Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: JohnA]
      #4344277 - 09/21/10 02:26 PM

Like John said, I will be taking care of the people that bought stuff from me that has proven to be fake. I've been in contact with the collectors affected and offered full refunds. It is not their fault that I was duped by these fake pieces, so they should not be stuck with them or saddled by the hassles of trying to get a refund. I'm out around $6,500 at this point on pieces that are definitely fake and a couple that are still being examined which are not looking good at this point.

While I sold them in complete faith that the pieces were legit, I feel absolutely terrible that the pieces are in fact fake and couldnt' live with myself if I didn't do everything in my control to make it right. It never occurred me not to refund the money. It's the right and only thing to do.

--------------------
Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Jarrod_Zutton79]
      #4344281 - 09/21/10 02:29 PM

Jarrod_Zutton79 wrote:
JohnA wrote:
Sadly, many of us do have good names and are taking care of friends. For example, Broc bought a piece from Scott and I bought from him and JoeY bought from me. It was proven fake a few days ago. I am refundung Joe, and Broc me. None of us think it is fair to stick somebody with a fake so, sadly, the buck is stopping at whomever purchased from Scott and hoping he will refund them. This does not seem to be the case anymore though.

I also let go one of mine in trade. That was also priven fake and now I have to try make good on that trade and I get stuck with the fake piece unless Scott refunds me. It's a mess. At least this is the way some of us are dealing. Not sure if it is the law but some of us want to make sure people are taken care of who bought/traded from/with us.

John



This whole situation is terrible. I am sorry for everyone who is involved. John, I think that the way that you and others are refunding each other and making right between one another is very commendable. We can all only hope that others will follow your lead and do the same, ESPECIALLY Scott.

I know it has been stated that the fakes are hardcopies and possibly wax sculptings, but does anyone know if people who bought first shots and protomolded pieces from Scott are safe? At this point I am sure anyone who has purchased or traded with him in the past (myself included) are a little nervous.



If it's a legit first shot (i.e. a production-quality figure), I'm sure it's fine. It's just not possible to fake something like that.

I've definitely seen photos of a supposedly protomolded part that came from Scott, and it looked bad, with what appeared to be air pockets in the material. I'm sure it'll be looked at more closely soon.

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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Shane TurgeonAdministrator



Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: Edmonton, Alberta
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Jarrod_Zutton79]
      #4344288 - 09/21/10 02:38 PM

Jarrod_Zutton79 wrote:

I know it has been stated that the fakes are hardcopies and possibly wax sculptings, but does anyone know if people who bought first shots and protomolded pieces from Scott are safe? At this point I am sure anyone who has purchased or traded with him in the past (myself included) are a little nervous.



Sadly, with Scott having had a lot of legit stuff as well, it's ALL to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. I would definitely be looking over any and all pieces, especially first shots. I have heard of and seen FSs with sanded off COOs that can be traced back to Scott.

If you're looking for sanded COOs, use whatever tools necessary including magnifying glasses and microscopes to really get a close look at the COO area(s).

--------------------
Shane Turgeon
Author: The Force in the Flesh
www.theforceintheflesh.com
www.tattoosandtoys.com


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Todd_Hudson



Reged: 02/15/03
Loc: Maui HI
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Shane Turgeon]
      #4344302 - 09/21/10 02:55 PM

This is very sad and unfortunate news...but something had stunk for a long time.

6-7 years ago I bought what I thought was a first shot bossk from him with some other items. I had resold it later to Baldy who showed it to Chris G at Dragon Con. Chris proved it to be a fake and he could see small traces of the stamps being sanded off. Of course I refunded Baldy his money and when I brought it up to Scott he refused to refund my money. Couple years later I was at his house for a gathering with some other Orlando friends and had a chance to see alot of his hardcopies in person.

I had mentioned to Scott some things looked off especially when he had discovered a Rocket Fett Hardcopy and he said thats how some hardcopies had just looked. At this point I had probably only seen 10 hardcopies or so, I was no expert by any means but it was a gut feeling that things looked wrong.

I believe he gave me some kind of story of his next door neighbor was a past Kenner employee and that along with the Kenner phone book he had made some amazing connections and had been buying stuff from them. The story seemed strange but not impossible, looking back to much never added up. The funny thing is after that time at his house I talked to another friend in the hobby alot about what I saw and how off it looked and we both tried to get scott to sell us a hardcopy and he always went dead on communications when we tried to nail down a price. Maybe he was afraid we might bring it up or show certain people???

This really sucks and I can't believe how bad this is now and how bad I expect it to become. On another note, since funds where sent across state lines as well as Country lines my guess is this is well worse then a state crime and should be considered Federal. Has anyone tried to contact the FBI yet?

Todd

--------------------
"Now if your stealing money from your grandma and donating plasma to complete your Cheif Chirpa focus bootleg set then thats no fun and should probably be avoided."
http://WWW.TODDONMAUI.COM


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Michael_Ritter



Reged: 11/24/01
Loc: Long Island, NY
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Shane Turgeon]
      #4344304 - 09/21/10 02:56 PM

I am gald to see this finally come to light. I had heard rumblings of this a while before CV and saw confirmation at CV. I really do feel bad for all the victims in this and hope this can be settled postively (though I doubt it unfortunately). Perhaps it might be worthwhile to contact a lawyer and/or law enforcement and see if there is any position that can be taken here. And since many of these 'prototypes' crossed state lines I assume by USPS, was there any mail fraud committed. Where are our lawyers in training, Tommy and Isaac?

Mike

--------------------
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!"
Looking for SWS.com's Vader's Trap print #14
Looking for R2 Prototypes MOC's & Cobot too! Also Droids R2 Original Art


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JosephY



Reged: 12/21/01
Loc: Providence RI
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: JohnA]
      #4344317 - 09/21/10 03:11 PM

JohnA wrote:
Sadly, many of us do have good names and are taking care of friends. For example, Broc bought a piece from Scott and I bought from him and JoeY bought from me. It was proven fake a few days ago. I am refundung Joe, and Broc me. None of us think it is fair to stick somebody with a fake so, sadly, the buck is stopping at whomever purchased from Scott and hoping he will refund them. This does not seem to be the case anymore though.

I also let go one of mine in trade. That was also priven fake and now I have to try make good on that trade and I get stuck with the fake piece unless Scott refunds me. It's a mess. At least this is the way some of us are dealing. Not sure if it is the law but some of us want to make sure people are taken care of who bought/traded from/with us.

John



And I'm very thankful that both you and Broc stepped up to the plate. I certianly wouldn't have thought any less of either of you if you had expected me to hold off and see how the direct situation with Scott panned out.

My .02 on the matter:
With it adding up to 5 YEARS+ of fakes coming from Scott,I personally do not believe for one second that he didn't know that they were fakes.

One thing to think about here, he works with wax and plastic resins at his job making custom ear pieces. hmmmmm. That mixed with fake prototypes coming from him. While it doesn't proove anything, it's an interesting combo.

*He had (fake) wax items, at Jordans booth, that (according to Rob A.) traced back to "Basement Bounty Hunters". These are noted and previously known fakes. Did he hope that the people that'd seen them before (like Rob) wouldn't remember the details of them?

His claims of it being hobby politics are invalid, as this has effected both collectors associated with the perceived "Inner Circle", as well as MANY collectors without long time friendships with that part of the community. There's no "political" benefit to this.

I truly hope that Scott mans up and takes care of this situation. I highly doubt it, with the kind of money that's being talked about. IF he can be charged with criminal counts of fraud, that'd certianly help the civil cases that I'm sure are on the horizon for this situation. It sucks to see many of my friends out this kind of money and the person that scammed them claiming that it's hobby jealousy.
Pathetic excuse man.

It's a dark day in the SW prototype collecting community to be sure.

Good luck guys.
Joe

--------------------
"You should be ashamed of yourself for supporting pirate Star Wars toys!"-TBFN
Wants:ANY Carded Polish, Mexican Amanaman,Loose Hungarian Vader
http://www.myspace.com/theusualsuspectsri


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Bill_Wills



Reged: 10/31/01
Loc: Monroe, OH
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Todd_Hudson]
      #4344341 - 09/21/10 03:23 PM

Todd - I've wondered about the FBI as well. I've heard it takes a large amout of money before it will attract their attention, but I've heard some pretty big numbers thrown around. The problem is who knows how long it will take to determine the scope of the damage? And it's my understanding that there are international folks who were victimized as well which just adds to the complexity. At this point, I'm certain *lots* of evidence has been destroyed...

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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Todd_Hudson]
      #4344348 - 09/21/10 03:29 PM

Todd_Hudson wrote:
I had mentioned to Scott some things looked off especially when he had discovered a Rocket Fett Hardcopy and he said thats how some hardcopies had just looked. At this point I had probably only seen 10 hardcopies or so, I was no expert by any means but it was a gut feeling that things looked wrong.




That supposed Rocketfett hardcopy is one of the worst (allegedly) fake prototypes I've ever laid eyes on. Just atrocious. And I only saw photos; lord knows how bad it looks in person.

And it could have been yours for only $25k!

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!

Edited by ronsalvatore (09/21/10 03:38 PM)


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Shane Turgeon]
      #4344358 - 09/21/10 03:32 PM

Shane Turgeon wrote:
Jarrod_Zutton79 wrote:

I know it has been stated that the fakes are hardcopies and possibly wax sculptings, but does anyone know if people who bought first shots and protomolded pieces from Scott are safe? At this point I am sure anyone who has purchased or traded with him in the past (myself included) are a little nervous.



Sadly, with Scott having had a lot of legit stuff as well, it's ALL to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. I would definitely be looking over any and all pieces, especially first shots. I have heard of and seen FSs with sanded off COOs that can be traced back to Scott.

If you're looking for sanded COOs, use whatever tools necessary including magnifying glasses and microscopes to really get a close look at the COO area(s).



I didn't even think of the COOs being sanded off. I thought you were talking about cast figures trying to pass as first shots.

I guess you should check the COO areas. But sanding of that type should be pretty obvious.

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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Todd_Hudson



Reged: 02/15/03
Loc: Maui HI
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ronsalvatore]
      #4344360 - 09/21/10 03:33 PM

ronsalvatore wrote:
Todd_Hudson wrote:
I had mentioned to Scott some things looked off especially when he had discovered a Rocket Fett Hardcopy and he said thats how some hardcopies had just looked. At this point I had probably only seen 10 hardcopies or so, I was no expert by any means but it was a gut feeling that things looked wrong.




That supposed Rocketfett hardcopy is one of the worst fake prototypes I've ever laid eyes on. Just atrocious. And I only saw photos; lord knows how bad it looks in person.

And it could have been yours for only $25k!



It was pretty bad, there was access "dyncast" all around the inner tube. 25k eh? I was told he has a standing offer from someone in Japan for 50k.

I hope noone ever bought that piece

Todd

--------------------
"Now if your stealing money from your grandma and donating plasma to complete your Cheif Chirpa focus bootleg set then thats no fun and should probably be avoided."
http://WWW.TODDONMAUI.COM


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JohnA



Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Todd_Hudson]
      #4344372 - 09/21/10 03:38 PM

Jeff's eagle eyes actually spotted the Bossk FS. It looked off and we all looked at it but Jeff confirmed it.

Todd_Hudson wrote:
25k eh? I was told he has a standing offer from someone in Japan for 50k.

I hope noone ever bought that piece

Todd



I'd heard it offered to $30k here and he told people that somebody else was going to pay him $50k for it.

John

--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character

-Shai Hulud


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Jarrod_Zutton79



Reged: 09/20/02
Loc: New England
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ronsalvatore]
      #4344373 - 09/21/10 03:38 PM

ronsalvatore wrote:
Shane Turgeon wrote:
Jarrod_Zutton79 wrote:

I know it has been stated that the fakes are hardcopies and possibly wax sculptings, but does anyone know if people who bought first shots and protomolded pieces from Scott are safe? At this point I am sure anyone who has purchased or traded with him in the past (myself included) are a little nervous.



Sadly, with Scott having had a lot of legit stuff as well, it's ALL to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. I would definitely be looking over any and all pieces, especially first shots. I have heard of and seen FSs with sanded off COOs that can be traced back to Scott.

If you're looking for sanded COOs, use whatever tools necessary including magnifying glasses and microscopes to really get a close look at the COO area(s).



I didn't even think of the COOs being sanded off. I thought you were talking about cast figures trying to pass as first shots.

I guess you should check the COO areas. But sanding of that type should be pretty obvious.



Thanks Shane and Ron, I am sure others will appreciate this information as well.

--------------------
Currently looking for Ewoks Preschool and Plush items including protos, proofs, artwork, etc.
My Feedback


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Shane TurgeonAdministrator



Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: Edmonton, Alberta
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: JohnA]
      #4344382 - 09/21/10 03:49 PM

JohnA wrote:
Jeff's eagle eyes actually spotted the Bossk FS. It looked off and we all looked at it but Jeff confirmed it.





I wasn't going to say anything but since you said it, it was actually me who spotted it.

--------------------
Shane Turgeon
Author: The Force in the Flesh
www.theforceintheflesh.com
www.tattoosandtoys.com


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ChrisGeorgoulias



Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Bill_Wills]
      #4344383 - 09/21/10 03:49 PM

Bill_Wills wrote:
Todd - I've wondered about the FBI as well. I've heard it takes a large amout of money before it will attract their attention, but I've heard some pretty big numbers thrown around. The problem is who knows how long it will take to determine the scope of the damage? And it's my understanding that there are international folks who were victimized as well which just adds to the complexity. At this point, I'm certain *lots* of evidence has been destroyed...



Plenty of bad pieces and incriminating emails still exist.

-chris

--------------------
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com


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Todd_Hudson



Reged: 02/15/03
Loc: Maui HI
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ChrisGeorgoulias]
      #4344387 - 09/21/10 03:55 PM

ChrisGeorgoulias wrote:
Bill_Wills wrote:
Todd - I've wondered about the FBI as well. I've heard it takes a large amout of money before it will attract their attention, but I've heard some pretty big numbers thrown around. The problem is who knows how long it will take to determine the scope of the damage? And it's my understanding that there are international folks who were victimized as well which just adds to the complexity. At this point, I'm certain *lots* of evidence has been destroyed...



Plenty of bad pieces and incriminating emails still exist.

-chris



If payments where made via Paypal or Personal Checks that's a huge paper trail to follow as well

Todd

--------------------
"Now if your stealing money from your grandma and donating plasma to complete your Cheif Chirpa focus bootleg set then thats no fun and should probably be avoided."
http://WWW.TODDONMAUI.COM


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Todd_Hudson



Reged: 02/15/03
Loc: Maui HI
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Todd_Hudson]
      #4344388 - 09/21/10 03:56 PM

BTW...is there a rough estimate to how many Hardcopies/Waxes and protomolds have been sold?

Todd

--------------------
"Now if your stealing money from your grandma and donating plasma to complete your Cheif Chirpa focus bootleg set then thats no fun and should probably be avoided."
http://WWW.TODDONMAUI.COM


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doc_atomic



Reged: 08/24/10
Loc: NYC
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Jarrod_Zutton79]
      #4344392 - 09/21/10 03:58 PM

Terrible news for you guys -- really sorry to hear about it. Getting scammed on any level sucks, but this... Not cool at all.

And as others have said, I really applaud everyone's willingness to step up to the plate to make the deals right. Legal obligations -- or lack thereof -- notwithstanding, it shows what type of people you really are that you'd go the extra mile in a situation like this.

I just hope that when the dust settles, you're able to see some compensation and get some -- if not all -- of your money back.

Good luck!

--------------------
Hi, my name is Brian.
My Feedback!
My Vintage Toy Blog!


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_Lee_



Reged: 03/16/02
Loc: United Kingdom.
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Jarrod_Zutton79]
      #4344395 - 09/21/10 04:00 PM

Wow

I feel for you guys who have been duped into buying these.I hope it all pans out well for you guys in the end,and this ratbag is taken to the cleaners.

I would however like to ask a question,and it isnt meant as an attack on your expertise or whatever.How on earth,considering the vast knowledge you guys have(John,Broc,Joe etc)not spot these as fakes?Someone stated that Chris G determined one of them to be fake,so how did you guys miss it? This stinks for sure,and TBH after seeing the amount of prototypes being slabbed by AFA in the last few years,whats to say some of these fakes havent been passed as original by AFA/CIB themselves.I am of the opinion that you guys have more knowledge than all of those guys,and would take your opinion over a legit piece any day of the week but this is a very worrying time for all proto collectors.I am just stunned by the situation,and saddened for all you guys.

I promise you guys this wasnt a personal dig at you,but im thinking many people may have asked this but didnt want to incase you took it the wrong way.I didnt mention AFA/CIB to start a mud slinging competition either,i just think this could be an important factor in this.If you guys got duped,then IMO anyone can.

Again,i hope you all get this sorted.

Lee

--------------------
"And what kinda stunts did Saturday Night Fever need? Was Lighting Bear doing the dancing?"

Looking for vintage POTF Luke Stormtrooper,R2 pop up,EV9D9 and Blue Snaggletooth.


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AJ_van_Zelst



Reged: 02/01/04
Loc: The Netherlands
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Jarrod_Zutton79]
      #4344396 - 09/21/10 04:00 PM

I'm shocked to hear this guys. I always had great contact with him and he seemed a respected part of the communitee. He gave me a lot of info on designers of Ewoks and stuff.

I have pictures of his unproduced Ewoks, full loose and some carded. I wonder if some of those are now proven to be fakes. Also would love to know if his Logray pieces have been proven to be fake. He claimed to have 2 pieces. He has offered me Ewoks pieces in the past, but we never came to a deal (mostly to costly for me). I'm realy glad that I dogged the bullet, but feel badly for you guys.

I hope these fakes get documented well by all the parties involved. In any case, if there is legal action / criminal action, do it with all parties involved. The evidence-problem is easier solved that way.

Good luck and get the bast*rd!

-Alex

--------------------
WTB: Ewoks cartoon prototypes: firstshots, ep's, toy fair (incl. Blue Harvest), esp. * Logray *

Edited by AJ_van_Zelst (09/21/10 04:03 PM)


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Bill_Wills



Reged: 10/31/01
Loc: Monroe, OH
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ChrisGeorgoulias]
      #4344400 - 09/21/10 04:03 PM

No question. I'm just saying ideally in a potential felony fraud situation, the authorities are involved and search warrants are granted before the defendant knows what's afoot. But I'm glad to know corroborating emails are in existence.

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Bill_McBride



Reged: 05/01/01
Loc: Washington DC
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Shane Turgeon]
      #4344405 - 09/21/10 04:09 PM

Shane Turgeon wrote:

Sadly, with Scott having had a lot of legit stuff as well, it's ALL to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. I would definitely be looking over any and all pieces, especially first shots. I have heard of and seen FSs with sanded off COOs that can be traced back to Scott.
If you're looking for sanded COOs, use whatever tools necessary including magnifying glasses and microscopes to really get a close look at the COO area(s).



I agree with Shane. This is part of the education process when it comes to pieces like this. Personally, I use a 10mp digital camera, and take macros of anything I want to look at. I can see details that you simply can't see otherwise.

Personally, I never dealt with him specifically for the reasons Ron mentioned. I have seen some amazing things, but no one, and I mean no one had ever come close to the rough estimate I had of pieces Scott claimed, or sold.

If anyone has any Vaders they would like to cross check with me, I can tell you what to look for. I have three protomolded figures, and they all have two similarities which are easy enough to spot once you know what to look for. (I'm obviously not going to post this publicaly. Please PM, or email me at sithtoys@aol.com)

Bill

~ I am sorry for everyone involved. I think the best thing to do is file a class action suit. Total everything up and it could be on the felony/federal level. From the numbers you guys are throwing out, it sounds like this is quite serious.

--------------------
Buying Rare and Unusual Darth Vader Items; Vintage and New
Check out The Darth Vader Toy Museum at: www.sithtoys.com


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Todd_Hudson



Reged: 02/15/03
Loc: Maui HI
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: _Lee_]
      #4344406 - 09/21/10 04:11 PM

_Lee_ wrote:
Wow

I feel for you guys who have been duped into buying these.I hope it all pans out well for you guys in the end,and this ratbag is taken to the cleaners.

I would however like to ask a question,and it isnt meant as an attack on your expertise or whatever.How on earth,considering the vast knowledge you guys have(John,Broc,Joe etc)not spot these as fakes?Someone stated that Chris G determined one of them to be fake,so how did you guys miss it? This stinks for sure,and TBH after seeing the amount of prototypes being slabbed by AFA in the last few years,whats to say some of these fakes havent been passed as original by AFA/CIB themselves.I am of the opinion that you guys have more knowledge than all of those guys,and would take your opinion over a legit piece any day of the week but this is a very worrying time for all proto collectors.I am just stunned by the situation,and saddened for all you guys.

I promise you guys this wasnt a personal dig at you,but im thinking many people may have asked this but didnt want to incase you took it the wrong way.I didnt mention AFA/CIB to start a mud slinging competition either,i just think this could be an important factor in this.If you guys got duped,then IMO anyone can.

Again,i hope you all get this sorted.

Lee



Lee,

I'm just guessing here but I'm sure some of the guys who bought just gave it a nice looking over and never really thought someone they knew who has real stuff and kenner contacts would try and pull the stunt.

I doubt CIB would have certified a fake, there are only a real few experts in the field, Tom Derby, Chris G, Ron S and Eddie..maybe a few more. These guys have a true love for the whole process and have talked extensively with ex-kenner people and know all the stages of production. Like Ron said, they wouldnt have painted something that wasnt perfect. I never knew that but someone who had been talking with Kenner people for years would know this.

I know people like Bill, CJ, John, Broc and even Joe have alot of knowledge in this area so I wasnt trying to slight any of you..just that there are a few others with alot more experience in this matter.

Todd

--------------------
"Now if your stealing money from your grandma and donating plasma to complete your Cheif Chirpa focus bootleg set then thats no fun and should probably be avoided."
http://WWW.TODDONMAUI.COM


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cfawcett



Reged: 11/06/00
Loc: North Carolina
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Bill_Wills]
      #4344411 - 09/21/10 04:13 PM

Lee,

Many of the fakes were pretty well done - to the point it would be easy to miss if you were not suspicious and looking for something. And there hadn't really been any HC fakes of this quality in the hobby before. It comes down to the fact that no one had any real reason to question them. And Scott made sure that remained the case by always asking for secrecy. I've had my pieces for three years and the first I heard about anything of Scott's possibly being fake was at C5.

That said, I'm still smacking myself in the head, because once you know that you should be looking for something fishy, at least on my pieces, it was obvious.

Cj

--------------------
WTB: First Shot Warok, Palitoy ESB Han Hoth, PBP Han Hoth (ESB & ROTJ)

Vintage Toy Archive: http://www.12back.com

Edited by cfawcett (09/21/10 04:29 PM)


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theguiltyone



Reged: 07/15/04
Loc: London. UK
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: cfawcett]
      #4344414 - 09/21/10 04:20 PM

Well, its looking like Scott ripped me a new one to the tune of a fair few $$$.
I bought a LXW repro 10 complete figure hardcopy, a protomolded head and a carbalon head.

Not a happy camper


marc

--------------------
http://community.webshots.com/user/theguiltyone
WTB: Andys PBP LXW MOC if he ever finds one (for a fraction of what he paid).


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Bill_McBride



Reged: 05/01/01
Loc: Washington DC
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: tapuvae]
      #4344434 - 09/21/10 04:36 PM

tapuvae wrote:

Unfortunately, this makes provenance so important that only buying from rock solid, early sources will appease doubts, and these sources are the least likely to ever sell anything anyway.



This is something I have harped on over and over in the past. It also makes a strong point for people sharing and communicating with each other instead of being "secretive" about something that's hardly a "secret". People have to remember a lot of these magical sources are actually very well known, far outside of the scope of people they think.

Bill

--------------------
Buying Rare and Unusual Darth Vader Items; Vintage and New
Check out The Darth Vader Toy Museum at: www.sithtoys.com


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Broc



Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: cfawcett]
      #4344448 - 09/21/10 04:46 PM

Cj hit the nail on the head with his response. Most of the pieces I received were well done and without a legit piece in hand for comparison it was missed. Considering his collection has known legit pieces as well, there just wasn't much reason to question them at the time especially with all of the secrecy he requested. He told a believable story and unfortunately it appears many of us bought it (no pun intended).

-Broc

--------------------
Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)


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Shane TurgeonAdministrator



Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: Edmonton, Alberta
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Bill_McBride]
      #4344451 - 09/21/10 04:49 PM

One other important thing to remember: Scott also sold prototypes from other toy lines and i think that any and all protos from Scott, regardless of whether they are Star Wars or not, should also be scrutinized.

Scott had previously offered me 12" GI Joe sculpts and stated he had a number of MLP first shots as well. Thankfully, i never pursued anything from him as i never felt quite right about how much stuff he had access to. Did any of our esteemed Super Powers collectors buy prototype stuff from Scott? That would seem the next logical and easiest line for him to delve into.

--------------------
Shane Turgeon
Author: The Force in the Flesh
www.theforceintheflesh.com
www.tattoosandtoys.com


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JohnA



Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: cfawcett]
      #4344452 - 09/21/10 04:50 PM

cfawcett wrote:
Lee,

Many of the fakes were pretty well done - to the point it would be easy to miss if you were not suspicious and looking for something.



CJ's right. I had a piece that was in my collection for a while now and quite a few people saw it at my house or in pics. Broc owned it, I owned it, Joe owned it, I even sent Derby pics recently and he even said it "looked" legit in pics. I swore it was good until side by sides were done with another HC with a rock solid history. Then the it was clear that the color was off, the details were off, the part lines were off, etc. It had the details that matched a production figure and NOT the other HC. It was even bigger than a production figure but that little trick has even been figured out. With a larger size, crisper details, and a guy I thought was solid I saw no reason to examine, like Cj. Some of the pieces I saw though stunk from the first time I saw them but some, like the piece I just mentioned, are really good fakes. It took a lot to prove what they really were but once you are looking some of them become much more obvious. I'd never give a second thought to a piece I bought from Ed, Chris, Gus, Ron, or Todd and I thought the same from Scott since he has so many Kenner names that he could have spoken to. Reputation goes a long way and I, and many others, thought that his was good enough not to worry.

John

--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character

-Shai Hulud


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JohnA



Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Shane Turgeon]
      #4344456 - 09/21/10 04:52 PM

Shane Turgeon wrote:
Did any of our esteemed Super Powers collectors buy prototype stuff from Scott? That would seem the next logical and easiest line for him to delve into.



He showed me an Aquaman "sculpt" once. That could be bad too.

John

--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character

-Shai Hulud


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_Lee_



Reged: 03/16/02
Loc: United Kingdom.
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Broc]
      #4344457 - 09/21/10 04:52 PM

Broc wrote:
Cj hit the nail on the head with his response. Most of the pieces I received were well done and without a legit piece in hand for comparison it was missed. Considering his collection has known legit pieces as well, there just wasn't much reason to question them at the time especially with all of the secrecy he requested. He told a believable story and unfortunately it appears many of us bought it (no pun intended).

-Broc



Broc,

In no way was my question meant in a nasty way buddy(just wanted to state that again),and Todd and CJ's responses hit the nail on the head really.I just feel for you guys,and it proves that you have really keep an eye on who your freinds are.

Again,i hope you get this turd done.

Lee

--------------------
"And what kinda stunts did Saturday Night Fever need? Was Lighting Bear doing the dancing?"

Looking for vintage POTF Luke Stormtrooper,R2 pop up,EV9D9 and Blue Snaggletooth.


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Broc



Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: _Lee_]
      #4344476 - 09/21/10 05:10 PM

_Lee_ wrote:
Broc wrote:
Cj hit the nail on the head with his response. Most of the pieces I received were well done and without a legit piece in hand for comparison it was missed. Considering his collection has known legit pieces as well, there just wasn't much reason to question them at the time especially with all of the secrecy he requested. He told a believable story and unfortunately it appears many of us bought it (no pun intended).

-Broc



Broc,

In no way was my question meant in a nasty way buddy(just wanted to state that again),and Todd and CJ's responses hit the nail on the head really.I just feel for you guys,and it proves that you have really keep an eye on who your freinds are.

Again,i hope you get this turd done.

Lee



No worries at all, Lee. I know you didn't mean anything nasty or ill by your question and didn't take it that way at all. It was certainly a valid question and needed to be addressed. Furthermore, John's response above was spot on as well.

I sincerely hope he steps up and makes this right with everyone that is affected.

--------------------
Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)


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Jason_West



Reged: 03/08/02
Loc: Northern Virginia
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Broc]
      #4344496 - 09/21/10 05:26 PM

Wow, I am shocked at this. Needless to say, any piece Scott sold should be called into question. I have been in contact with him recently and need to update some documents after reading this. This is a dark day for our hobby and the shockwaves will be felt for a long time. I will post some saved pictures later.

--------------------
Jason West
Collection and Blog: MADBROWNZ


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michael_mensingerModerator



Reged: 12/24/00
Loc: Wilmington, DE, USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Shane Turgeon]
      #4344505 - 09/21/10 05:39 PM

Shane wrote:

Quote:
Did any of our esteemed Super Powers collectors buy prototype stuff from Scott?



I can't speak for others, but I personally have not. I can confirm that Scott owned, and may still own, some legitimate two-dimensional Super Powers pieces that easily trace back past him to a former Super Powers collector, but it wasn't a large amount of material. If anyone is concerned about the authenticity of any Super Powers material in their collection, I'm always available to help out.

- Mike

--------------------
Buying vintage prototypes, snowtrooper rarities, & Kenner employee memorabilia

Edited by michael_mensinger (09/21/10 05:41 PM)


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: _Lee_]
      #4344506 - 09/21/10 05:40 PM

_Lee_ wrote:
Wow

I feel for you guys who have been duped into buying these.I hope it all pans out well for you guys in the end,and this ratbag is taken to the cleaners.

I would however like to ask a question,and it isnt meant as an attack on your expertise or whatever.How on earth,considering the vast knowledge you guys have(John,Broc,Joe etc)not spot these as fakes?Someone stated that Chris G determined one of them to be fake,so how did you guys miss it? This stinks for sure,and TBH after seeing the amount of prototypes being slabbed by AFA in the last few years,whats to say some of these fakes havent been passed as original by AFA/CIB themselves.I am of the opinion that you guys have more knowledge than all of those guys,and would take your opinion over a legit piece any day of the week but this is a very worrying time for all proto collectors.I am just stunned by the situation,and saddened for all you guys.

I promise you guys this wasnt a personal dig at you,but im thinking many people may have asked this but didnt want to incase you took it the wrong way.I didnt mention AFA/CIB to start a mud slinging competition either,i just think this could be an important factor in this.If you guys got duped,then IMO anyone can.

Again,i hope you all get this sorted.

Lee



I first heard of Scott 6 or 7 years ago in connection with a fantastical, impossible-to-believe story about his owning hundreds of complete hardcopies. I and others assumed the story to be a complete lie. If you know where just about every hardcopy out there came from, it's pretty hard to take a guy seriously when he claims to have hundreds of previously unknown examples -- and all from a mysterious source.

But as time went on many people simply came to accept that he had 1) tons of hardcopies and 2) great Kenner leads. I don't know how he convinced folks that he was for real, but he did.

I recall asking people who the source of Scott's stuff could possibly be. Who could have that many hardcopies? And was there any reason to assume that Scott wasn't lying?

I was told that Scott had circulated photos of his stuff to some people, that he had a neighbor who used to work at Kenner, etc. The belief around the hobby was that he'd done tons of legwork in turning this stuff up. Again, none of this was ever remotely proven. But people saw that he had a lot of stuff in his display cases and figured it had to come from somewhere.

I just stopped thinking about Scott after a while. I'd never spoken to him or examined any of his hardcopies, and I wasn't much interested in buying more prototypes anyway. I figured he was exaggerating... but had nevertheless bought some nice stuff from some other collector and was now selling it. None of the guys buying from him were complaining, so...whatever.

I think he started slowly, selling things to one or two guys. And then once he was established as a seller, a lot of other guys figured he was a-ok. Getting the inside track on terrific pieces also played a part.

Also remember that no one made the cognitive leap to forgery. People thought he might be exaggerating about his collection, but apparently it never crossed anyone's mind that someone might be making this stuff from scratch....until, that is, other people started examining the pieces more closely.

Apparently, Scott asked most of his buyers not to share it with certain "known" collectors. Because these people didn't like him, had it in for him, etc.

He did sell some things to more knowledgeable guys, but it was only the nicer stuff. And I don't think those guys ever bothered to really scrutinize the pieces. They seemed ok enough.

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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RebelChris



Reged: 12/01/06
Loc: WY
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ronsalvatore]
      #4344513 - 09/21/10 05:48 PM

Let me first say that I am completely shocked by this. I am simply stunned while I sit here reading all these accounts. I just can't fathom coming to this realization. Especially after all of these years.

I would like to ask a question though, that I feel is worth asking. What is going to be done to these fake pieces to ensure they don't spread even further and continue to hurt the community/hobby?

I know this probably can't be answered fully at this time. But I think it's important that the people who were affected by this the most, stay vigilant in making sure these don't continue to rip people off.

--------------------
On the lookout for Rebel Commando pre-production and other interesting items.
And if you have want to get rid of your Jar-Jar pre-production shoot me a PM


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tapuvae



Reged: 12/20/03
Loc: us
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ronsalvatore]
      #4344514 - 09/21/10 05:48 PM

On a related note, did anything ever come of the Gary Pederson (sp?) debacle. Same MO as I recall- known, trusted, experience with certain production skills...

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AJ_van_Zelst



Reged: 02/01/04
Loc: The Netherlands
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: RebelChris]
      #4344543 - 09/21/10 06:31 PM

RebelChris wrote:
I would like to ask a question though, that I feel is worth asking. What is going to be done to these fake pieces to ensure they don't spread even further and continue to hurt the community/hobby?


Seeing this atleast should be a civil matter and very likely criminal, those pieces have to stay like they are. If it stays a civil matter, those items in all probability have to go back to Scott. Perhaps the only way of preventing that is with the help of Kenner/Hasbro. Seeing they own the copyright on the true figures. Else I probably see no other way of preventing these items to go back to Scott if he gives the money back. Only if it will become a criminal case the figures can be legaly destroyed, but you need a court rulling on that (atleast here in the Netherlands).

-Alex

--------------------
WTB: Ewoks cartoon prototypes: firstshots, ep's, toy fair (incl. Blue Harvest), esp. * Logray *


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Joshua_A



Reged: 05/29/08
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: AJ_van_Zelst]
      #4344583 - 09/21/10 07:24 PM

Firstly...is this samseventy we are talking about? If it is..hasn't his named popped up in the watchout a few times now.
I am surpised so many knowledgable collectors were stung. Especially after the Billy Boy scenario. And especially after reading Ron's breakdown of the situation and some of the rules placed by Scott when making a purchase from him.

Sorry to hear about this peoples. And thanks for the heads up.

--------------------
Always looking for Dengar related items
U Grade FAQ


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JohnA



Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: JohnA]
      #4344589 - 09/21/10 07:33 PM

JohnA wrote:
I even sent Derby pics recently and he even said it "looked" legit in pics. I swore it was good until side by sides were done with another HC with a rock solid history. Then the it was clear that the color was off, the details were off, the part lines were off, etc.



I just need to make this very clear. Now that people know what to look for it's pretty easy to tell on these. The carbalon looked good at first but in person those working on identifying these (ChrisG and Tom Derby doing the bulk of this research) can ID these and even with high res pics. The real trick was knowing what to look for. The Carbalon was by far the closest in color but enough have been compared that even those can be ID'd now. If others have pieces that trace back to Scott that they question please join the group CJ mentioned and get either some pics or the pieces over to Chris and Tom.

John

--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character

-Shai Hulud


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Joshua_A]
      #4344612 - 09/21/10 08:05 PM

Joshua_A wrote:
Firstly...is this samseventy we are talking about? If it is..hasn't his named popped up in the watchout a few times now.
I am surpised so many knowledgable collectors were stung. Especially after the Billy Boy scenario. And especially after reading Ron's breakdown of the situation and some of the rules placed by Scott when making a purchase from him.

Sorry to hear about this peoples. And thanks for the heads up.



Ever heard of an "information cascade" or an "error cascade"?

Here's a good definition, cribbed from the web:

"In medical jargon, an “error cascade” is something very specific: a series of escalating errors in diagnosis or treatment, each one amplifying the effect of the previous one... There’s a slightly different term, information cascade, which is used to describe the propagation of beliefs and attitudes through crowd psychology. Information cascades occur because humans are social animals and tend to follow the behavior of those around them."

There was a little of that going on. Once Scott was established as a good seller, who had good stuff, it was easy for others to buy this stuff without suspicion. It helped that long-time collectors with good names were helping Scott to broker stuff.

And, as John says, some of the stuff looks pretty decent.

Another thing: Some of these are actually larger than production. So whoever made them figured out a way to enlarge the molds. Chris G. discovered a way to do this, so it's not far-fetched. And enlarged molds would explain some of the bulbous, blown-out details visible on these pieces.

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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Shane TurgeonAdministrator



Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: Edmonton, Alberta
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Joshua_A]
      #4344620 - 09/21/10 08:15 PM

Joshua_A wrote:
Firstly...is this samseventy we are talking about? If it is..hasn't his named popped up in the watchout a few times now.




Totally different person. That's Scott MacDonald. This is Scott McWilliams. His RS ID was smcwillaims

--------------------
Shane Turgeon
Author: The Force in the Flesh
www.theforceintheflesh.com
www.tattoosandtoys.com


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: AJ_van_Zelst]
      #4344622 - 09/21/10 08:16 PM

AJ_van_Zelst wrote:
RebelChris wrote:
I would like to ask a question though, that I feel is worth asking. What is going to be done to these fake pieces to ensure they don't spread even further and continue to hurt the community/hobby?


Seeing this atleast should be a civil matter and very likely criminal, those pieces have to stay like they are. If it stays a civil matter, those items in all probability have to go back to Scott. Perhaps the only way of preventing that is with the help of Kenner/Hasbro. Seeing they own the copyright on the true figures. Else I probably see no other way of preventing these items to go back to Scott if he gives the money back. Only if it will become a criminal case the figures can be legaly destroyed, but you need a court rulling on that (atleast here in the Netherlands).

-Alex



I'm no legal expert, but my guess is that proving anything here is going to be pretty hard.

All we know for sure is that a bunch of bogus-looking figures trace back to one guy.

At least he's refunded some folks. Hopefully he'll refund the others.

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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Robbygnz



Reged: 06/26/10
Loc: Austin, Texas
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: DarthBerizing]
      #4344653 - 09/21/10 08:45 PM

DarthBerizing wrote:
To Broc and JohnA (so far) I can't tell you how bad I feel. I'm gutted just reading it, let alone living it.

Caveating with "Innocent until proven guilty" I'll say this:

Florida Statute of Limitations is as follows:

Fraud 4 years
Oral Contract 4 years
Writen Contract 5 years

Contract could be interepreted as the contract to deliver specific goods. His delivery of a fake should therefore deem the contract as unfulfilled.

I'd call an attorney and take a legal action if this is concretly proven to be fake. Ironically (despite both your well deserved places in the hobby) contact CIB to get a 3rd party on record to validate the claim.

Good luck though, nobody should be out the cash except the seller if this turns out to be true.



im not a high end collector, but this seems like the right course of action for any failure to deliver goods. This is way outside of the jurisdiction of a small claims court. Really hope this gets sorted. best of luck.

--------------------
Trade forum Feedback|Know the dangers of U grading]


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Leif_G



Reged: 02/01/06
Loc: BC, Canada
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Jarrod_Zutton79]
      #4344698 - 09/21/10 09:24 PM

Jarrod_Zutton79 wrote:

This whole situation is terrible. I am sorry for everyone who is involved. John, I think that the way that you and others are refunding each other and making right between one another is very commendable.



Quoted for truth. I couldn't say it better.

It seems to me though that Scott has taken action to keep people from determining that they purchased fakes, by insisting on silence. Particularly, if he indeed asked buyers to not discuss the acquisition with certain people. That's pretty damning, and his reaction even more so.

I feel so terrible for you people whose trust has been broken in this way, by someone you considered a friend.

Leif

--------------------
Leif's Trade Feedback


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ChrisGeorgoulias



Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ronsalvatore]
      #4344704 - 09/21/10 09:26 PM

While there will undoubtedly be many people affected beyond a core known group right now, it's important for people not to freak out about pieces they may own.

First, if you know the provenance of the piece(s) you own and they're solid and don't trace back to Scott then you are most likely fine. Although I've been surprised by the chain of ownership of some pieces floating around the hobby as it seems that some can't find stable homes. Generally people seem to ask where pieces originated or have been, but there are times when people don't release this info.

Secondly, right now this seems to apply only to hardcopies but I have seen wax "sculpings" which seemed suspect, but as far as I know those weren't among the pieces sold.

Now it seems that any piece could be suspect if the history leads back to Scott. I do know that there are legitimate things that were sold (or still owned) but that was usually the case of items that were sold by known dealers or collectors or definitely originated from them. The problem is potential copies of good pieces being introduced into the marketplace. I know of one case for sure where an item was sold based on a photo, but what was sent was a copy of that item and it did not match the original.

The pieces that I've seen firsthand were all ESB-era "hardcopy" figures although this issue goes into the other vintage SW lines as well. What struck me first was the low quality of the pieces and the poor attempt at paint jobs. There were both painted and unpainted "hardcopies" sold, often times of the same character and sometimes multiples of the same character.

In the attempts to make these look legitimate, attempts were made to replicate the color and consistency of known hardcopy casting materials. You'll see this mentioned a lot here but there is the tan "Carbalon" material and the green "Dynacast" material. The other, main, way to make the pieces look legitimate was to make them larger than production figures. When Kenner created their figures they designed and sculpted them to account for 3% shrinkage during the injection-molding process. In my experience I've found it to be around 3%-5%, usually on the limbs which were made of softer vinyl than the torso which was made of harder plastic like ABS.

At any rate, a hardcopy is a near exact copy of the original sculpting and retains all of those details. There are sculpted details on figures that were too light to be transferred to the steel production molds therefore you can find details on hardcopies that are either murky, altered, or sometimes just gone. Also it's important to note that moldmakers would hand-tweak the molds which accounts for all kinds of variations, but variations that are not present back at the sculpting stage.

So when one of these bad "hardcopies" was generally presented, the immediate signals seemed alright (color and size) but what wasn't really scrutinized enough were the similarities to production figures or the inconsistent sizing.

After some research I saw that it was rather simple to enlarge a silicone mold which meant that anything could be cast and scaled up a bit. However, maintaining a consistent scale during this process was another matter completely and some of the pieces I've examined had disproportionate features - large feet, mis-shapen limbs, etc... but it wasn't always immediately apparent especially for someone not on the lookout for it.

Then there are the parting lines themselves. The parting line is the division between both halves of a mold. Real hardcopies have parting lines from the silicone mold that they were made from, which itself was made from the original sculpting. Since one half of the mold is literally poured onto the other half, the part is encased in silicone and every feature is captured. The parting line is generally not something grossly oversized or prominent, however on many authentic parts that have turned up they were literally bad castings so they may have flaws in the parting lines. But the parting lines of an authentic hardcopy are not always strictly followed on a production figure so by comparing a known original to a suspect piece, the shape of the parting line is an important detail to scrutinize.

Now for production figures the 2 mold halves are cut separately into steel and then matched in the mold frame. The entire mold opens and closes during the injection molding process so any little mis-alignment of the halves can be seen on a production piece. You can check this for yourself by looking at random production figures and noting that some features may not line up. Say a belt is shifted at the side of the torso or a pocket on an arm (which crossed the parting line) has shifted on one side. You don't need to look at a lot of figures before you notice this fact. And once you realize that this offset is absolutely not possible on an authentic hardcopy then you are better positioned to spot a piece that has been simply cast from an injection-molded plastic production figure.

Some other obvious tells are seeing remnants of a filled-in hexagonal foot peg holes or evidence of removed copyright dates.

You'd be surprised at the differences you can see when you have a high-res photo and some insight into what pieces should look like. Also, there's no substitute for magnification and a strong light.

In the end provenance is critical, but a piece should be able to stand on its own and it's that where these are falling apart.

-chris

--------------------
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com

Edited by ChrisGeorgoulias (09/21/10 11:58 PM)


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Bantha5



Reged: 11/05/00
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Leif_G]
      #4344737 - 09/21/10 09:51 PM

"One thing to think about here, he works with wax and plastic resins at his job making custom ear pieces. hmmmmm. That mixed with fake prototypes coming from him. While it doesn't proove anything, it's an interesting combo."

JosephY, I was thinking the same thing even before I got to your post. The custom ear piece business is similar to the line of work I'm in. He would have access to the same tools and techniques I do.
The only problem is access to the correct materials, which is difficult, but not impossible. I'd be lying if I said I didn't work out in my head how to go about making a passable fake Hardcopy. I believe I have worked out everything from slightly enlarging the sculpt to sourcing the pins and materials. All it would take to move them would a good story, a credible rep and bad intentions.

Anyway, From who is involved to how long it went on, it is a very surprising story all the way around. I hope those who have been affected by this see positive results in the end. Ryan


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Leif_G



Reged: 02/01/06
Loc: BC, Canada
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ronsalvatore]
      #4344738 - 09/21/10 09:51 PM

Ron - I normally don't make a habit of quoting entire posts. But I wanted to say that I found your post extremely informative, and its certainly worth quoting in full.

Leif


ronsalvatore wrote:
Some of the alleged fakes that I've seen are so poor that I'm surprised this didn't break sooner.

Some lessons to be learned here:

1) When a seller asks you to keep a transaction completely secret, especially from certain people, it might be good to question his motives.

2) When an individual suddenly claims to own 200 hardcopies, virtually none of which trace back to verifiable sources, regard it as a red flag.

3) Know where your stuff comes from! Most legit vintage hardcopies can be traced back to one of the following sources:

The Earth
Steve Denny
Intergalactic
Tom Neiheisel
Kim Simmons
One of Ed A's various leads

There are a lot of exceptions, of course, but those have been the major sources.

4) Multiple, complete hardcopies of the same character almost never turn up, especially for pre-ROTJ figures -- and especially not from the same source at the same time. If a seller offers you two Death Squad Commanders, it's a huge red flag. (It's even more of a red flag if those multiple copies are all in different materials).

5) Kenner only painted nice, nearly flawless hardcopies. No painted hardcopy I've ever seen has air bubbles, visible casting flaws, etc.

6) Most of the "unfinished" and/or random hardcopy parts out there came from contacts associated with the old Kenner model shop. Many of them were Ed's contacts. The other sources mostly had complete (and usually painted) hardcopies. If someone offers you random or flaw-ridden parts that cannot be traced back to a good source, regard it as a red flag. The great majority of hardcopies that made it out of Kenner were complete.

7) Hardcopies always, always have better detail than production figures. It's finer, tighter, etc. If the details on something you're looking at are bulbous or muddy, question it.

8) A protomolded figure should not have air bubbles in it. It's injection-molded plastic!

9) As far as I know, legit protomolded parts have not turned up in any quantity. Protomolded figures are virtually always complete, and they're usually fully painted. If someone offers you a protomolded head or arm -- red flag.

This whole thing is going to hit the hobby like one big growing pain.

The alleged culprits will claim they're being taken down unfairly, due to jealousy or "politics" or whatever. It's up to each of you to decide if you believe that.



--------------------
Leif's Trade Feedback


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Jason_West



Reged: 03/08/02
Loc: Northern Virginia
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ChrisGeorgoulias]
      #4344745 - 09/21/10 09:56 PM

Unfortunately, the picture I have of the hardcopy jawa from CV has been watermarked with Hollywood Heroes. I did this to protect the broker of the figure. With respect to Jordan, I will not post this. Of course, I will consider this a fake. Scott sold some "prototypes" back in July 2004. A first shot vc jawa had been listed. I am 90% sure who the figure had been sold to, but will keep his name out of it. Personally speaking, I will consider that a fake to. If province is everything, then I will (personal opinion) consider all of his prototypes fakes. This might seem like I am freaking out, since I had been affected by this sham, but I think a justified stand against fakes is one I will be happy to take.

--------------------
Jason West
Collection and Blog: MADBROWNZ


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Joshua_A



Reged: 05/29/08
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ronsalvatore]
      #4344748 - 09/21/10 09:58 PM

ronsalvatore wrote:
Joshua_A wrote:
Firstly...is this samseventy we are talking about? If it is..hasn't his named popped up in the watchout a few times now.
I am surpised so many knowledgable collectors were stung. Especially after the Billy Boy scenario. And especially after reading Ron's breakdown of the situation and some of the rules placed by Scott when making a purchase from him.

Sorry to hear about this peoples. And thanks for the heads up.



Ever heard of an "information cascade" or an "error cascade"?

Here's a good definition, cribbed from the web:

"In medical jargon, an “error cascade” is something very specific: a series of escalating errors in diagnosis or treatment, each one amplifying the effect of the previous one... There’s a slightly different term, information cascade, which is used to describe the propagation of beliefs and attitudes through crowd psychology. Information cascades occur because humans are social animals and tend to follow the behavior of those around them."

There was a little of that going on. Once Scott was established as a good seller, who had good stuff, it was easy for others to buy this stuff without suspicion. It helped that long-time collectors with good names were helping Scott to broker stuff.

And, as John says, some of the stuff looks pretty decent.

Another thing: Some of these are actually larger than production. So whoever made them figured out a way to enlarge the molds. Chris G. discovered a way to do this, so it's not far-fetched. And enlarged molds would explain some of the bulbous, blown-out details visible on these pieces.



I can see how that could of happened here. I guess I am just a little amazed it took the discovery of the fakes to start tracing their back history a little more in depth. Or if it was already in question, why they were purchased in the first place?

AND thanks for clearing that up Shane. I didn't have time to run a search before I ran out the door this morning.

Again. Sounds like a [censored] situation to be apart of and I admire the way you guys are going about the refunds.

I will shut up now and let the people involved sort through this mess.

Best of luck with it.

--------------------
Always looking for Dengar related items
U Grade FAQ


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Ian_C



Reged: 12/23/01
Loc: Southern Ontario, Canada
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ChrisGeorgoulias]
      #4344753 - 09/21/10 09:59 PM

Wow guys,

Add me to the list of guys who feels truly bad for everyone taken by this scam.

What's scary to me is that this is truly the first time I can recall some of the big name players in this hobby getting taken - and it happened to several of them. Some guys I consider friends, and others I just know from board activity, but in any case, guys like John, Broc, CJ, Chris, Bill, Ron, Baldy, and Joe are among the people I truly look up to as authorities. I have learned a lot about this hobby, and most of it has come from these guys, with the acceptance that they still know a TON more than I do. Knowing a good number of this group was taken has floored me.

I hope you are all able to recover whatever money has been lost on this scam, and that if Scott did this knowingly, that he is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

One bright spot today though guys.

This was a clever scam that went on for years apparently, and was well covered by those responsible. However, it shows, once again, the strength and integrity of those affected that not only have they gone above and beyond in outing the scam, but they are united in bringing forward all evidence to educate the community, with most if not all willing to help identify any trouble pieces in other people's collections. And this doesn't even include the honorable act of reimbursing all who they unknowingly passed them forward to themselves.

Our group of vintage caretakers needs to be recognized for their work in this, and we ALL owe them a huge thank you for their work.

Ian

Edited by Ian_C (09/21/10 10:03 PM)


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Ian_C]
      #4344759 - 09/21/10 10:03 PM

Ian_C wrote:
Wow guys,

What's scary to me is that this is truly the first time I can recall some of the big name players in this hobby getting taken - and it happened to several of them. Some guys I consider friends, and others I just know from board activity, but in any case, guys like John, Broc, CJ, Chris, Bill, Ron, Baldy, and Joe are among the people I truly look up to as authorities.



I didn't buy any of these. I had never even seen one until very recently.

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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Ian_C



Reged: 12/23/01
Loc: Southern Ontario, Canada
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ronsalvatore]
      #4344763 - 09/21/10 10:07 PM

ronsalvatore wrote:
Ian_C wrote:
Wow guys,

What's scary to me is that this is truly the first time I can recall some of the big name players in this hobby getting taken - and it happened to several of them. Some guys I consider friends, and others I just know from board activity, but in any case, guys like John, Broc, CJ, Chris, Bill, Ron, Baldy, and Joe are among the people I truly look up to as authorities.



I didn't buy any of these. I had never even seen one until very recently.



Sorry Ron for the misunderstanding,

I meant you are the guys I look up to as authorities, along with others, and that some of you were taken. The names I mentioned were generally those of you who have either been affected directly, or have gone above and beyond in this thread with information. I didn't mean to imply that everyone I mentioned here fell for the scam. Apologies.

Ian


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Leif_G



Reged: 02/01/06
Loc: BC, Canada
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: _Lee_]
      #4344768 - 09/21/10 10:12 PM

_Lee_ wrote:
...after seeing the amount of prototypes being slabbed by AFA in the last few years,whats to say some of these fakes havent been passed as original by AFA/CIB themselves.I am of the opinion that you guys have more knowledge than all of those guys,and would take your opinion over a legit piece any day of the week...



FYI, many of the people here you refer to, turn to Tom Derby at times for his expert opinion, and he owns CIB. Tom's got a far better reputation among die hard collectors than you give him credit for in that post. In fact, his refusal to authenticate certain items has contributed to certain hobby criminals being found out. Tom's not perfect, but there's no question in my mind that he has taken his authentication services very seriously, which has often led to difficulties because people get miffed when items can't be positively authenticated.

Sorry, I don't mean to come off snarky. But I don't think he deserves to have his expertise questioned in this way. In fact, no suprise to me, it seems he's been very helpful in this case as well.

Leif

--------------------
Leif's Trade Feedback

Edited by Leif_G (09/21/10 10:52 PM)


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Ian_C]
      #4344786 - 09/21/10 10:30 PM

Ian_C wrote:
ronsalvatore wrote:
Ian_C wrote:
Wow guys,

What's scary to me is that this is truly the first time I can recall some of the big name players in this hobby getting taken - and it happened to several of them. Some guys I consider friends, and others I just know from board activity, but in any case, guys like John, Broc, CJ, Chris, Bill, Ron, Baldy, and Joe are among the people I truly look up to as authorities.



I didn't buy any of these. I had never even seen one until very recently.



Sorry Ron for the misunderstanding,

I meant you are the guys I look up to as authorities, along with others, and that some of you were taken. The names I mentioned were generally those of you who have either been affected directly, or have gone above and beyond in this thread with information. I didn't mean to imply that everyone I mentioned here fell for the scam. Apologies.

Ian



No worries.

The alleged scam was mostly overlooked because no one rang the alarm. Once collectors started communicating with each other and sweating the details, it became obvious. Chris and Tom have really done the most to really investigate these things.

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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Kaneda_01



Reged: 12/31/03
Loc: San Antonio
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Leif_G]
      #4344788 - 09/21/10 10:33 PM

Sorry to hear this has occurred and impacted so many members of this forum. I truly hope that this scum is held accountable for his wrong doing... and those affected pursue criminal and civil action.

--------------------
::: For sale :: feedback :


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ChrisGeorgoulias



Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Kaneda_01]
      #4344848 - 09/21/10 11:21 PM

I think this one single photo speaks volumes. It also helps to show that buying and trying to analyze from a regular photo can be difficult.

Under normal lighting conditions, and with a fairly low-res photo, these items all look basically the same. However, when you shine a black light onto the group you get an entirely different view.

The top row are all legitimate, unpainted Carbalon pieces from various sources purchased over a span of years. The bottom row is a leg off of each different unpainted figure that I've received thus far to examine which originated from Scott. As you can see, once you see things within the context of a large group and also compare them to several legitimate pieces the differences are apparent.

I touched on the differences in the casting quality earlier, but now you can see something which is much harder to replicate. Age and period material. I believe that the formulas for Carbalon and Dynacast were changed over the years at least some type of Dynacast is still commercially available. I'm not sure what the actual material of these fakes is, but it's not the same upon close examination with the naked eye as well as feel. It's the black light though that really makes it apparent.

Authentic Dynacast pieces glow green while the Carbalon is sort of a neon mustard color with rust-colored parting lines. The fakes are basically flat and gray. All I did was to snap a normal photo using spotlights then went pitch-black in the room and took a second photo using only a black light source.

So while all of the physical flaws and irregularities in the castings alone are enough to form an opinion , the black light further shows the differences between authentic and fake.

Keep in mind that the authentic samples are from both SW and ESB yet they all have a similar look under the black light.



-chris

--------------------
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com


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tapuvae



Reged: 12/20/03
Loc: us
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ronsalvatore]
      #4344902 - 09/22/10 12:54 AM

Any reason the parting lines on legit pieces would be a different color under a black light?

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Ross_C



Reged: 02/28/07
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ChrisGeorgoulias]
      #4344909 - 09/22/10 01:04 AM

ChrisGeorgoulias wrote:
I think this one single photo speaks volumes. It also helps to show that buying and trying to analyze from a regular photo can be difficult.

Under normal lighting conditions, and with a fairly low-res photo, these items all look basically the same. However, when you shine a black light onto the group you get an entirely different view.

The top row are all legitimate, unpainted Carbalon pieces from various sources purchased over a span of years. The bottom row is a leg off of each different unpainted figure that I've received thus far to examine which originated from Scott. As you can see, once you see things within the context of a large group and also compare them to several legitimate pieces the differences are apparent.

I touched on the differences in the casting quality earlier, but now you can see something which is much harder to replicate. Age and period material. I believe that the formulas for Carbalon and Dynacast were changed over the years at least some type of Dynacast is still commercially available. I'm not sure what the actual material of these fakes is, but it's not the same upon close examination with the naked eye as well as feel. It's the black light though that really makes it apparent.

Authentic Dynacast pieces glow green while the Carbalon is sort of a neon mustard color with rust-colored parting lines. The fakes are basically flat and gray. All I did was to snap a normal photo using spotlights then went pitch-black in the room and took a second photo using only a black light source.

So while all of the physical flaws and irregularities in the castings alone are enough to form an opinion , the black light further shows the differences between authentic and fake.

Keep in mind that the authentic samples are from both SW and ESB yet they all have a similar look under the black light.



-chris



Awesome, Chris G is the Hard Copy Whisperer. I also can't get ZZ top Legs out of my head.

Looks clear as day, and black light to me now! But what are all those speckles on the table...ewww.

--------------------
I feel a great disturbance in the Hobby, as if thousands of MOCs suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced in acrylic.


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Bobafettguy



Reged: 12/19/05
Loc: CA.
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Ross_C]
      #4344945 - 09/22/10 02:44 AM

Scott McWilliams took my money with a smile. I bought original painted hard copies of Han Hoth and a Painted Biker Scout for a total of $7600 plus a couple of nice shirts from my place of work for him. People say Scott is known for his short replies on emails but when you get him on the phone he will talk your ear off. Not that it was a bad thing at the time listening to his stories of the process of how Hardcopies were made and all the other toy lines he collects. Not to mention his $50,000 turtle and his love for exotic rare animals. He was so very friendly on the phone. He even invited me to his house.
He told me the Biker Scout was the one from theswca.com. Ron mentioned about that no one would have thought somebody would be making these from scratch. I can tell you it never crossed my mind. The two things I looked for when I got the Hardcopies were the detail ( it was more detailed) and the size, they were larger than the production figures.

Here is an email from Scott : quote " At this point I am not looking to trade. I want to scale back . I am also not at a point that I want others to know I am selling any of my hard copies. Last time I sold some pieces I got two hunderd e-mails in two days time. If I sell to you all pieces need to be kept private and conf. If I sell you the biker scout it will make John A. mad. Politics in this hobbie are brutal. Some one is always going to be upset. Its not the money I am just tired after 32 years of collecting. Scott " end quote.

Scott was a collector at age 10? Ok maybe.

Thanks to Tom Derby looking out for me, I sent the pieces to him to be looked at. Chris G. also looked at them , thanks Chris. One of my main regrets is I didn't send them to him sooner.
I had a chance 10 years ago to buy hard copies but I had my hands in other SW cookie jars. If I had a real one on hand I might have noticed a problem. Last month I called and talked to Scott on the phone twice on the same day. The first was to tell him there was a problem with my hardcopies and something needed to be done. He told me he was going to call Tom and to call him back day after next. I called him back later to give him Tom's number. He answered and took the number. The day after next came, no answer, and no answer, He won't answer. That was over a month ago now. Since he won't even answer my emails, I sent him certifed letters saying I want my $7600 back. He signed for one of the letters on Sept 2nd. So much for "call me back the day after next", right Scott?

--------------------
Marty - yub yub

Edited by Bobafettguy (09/22/10 02:53 AM)


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HWR



Reged: 10/05/01
Loc: Vejle, Denmark
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: JohnA]
      #4344946 - 09/22/10 02:44 AM

I'm really shocked and sad to hear about this scam and how much money so many collectors have lost.

JohnA wrote:
Sadly, because many of us do have good names we have to take care of friends. For example, Broc bought a piece from Scott and I bought from him and JoeY bought from me. It was proven fake a few days ago. I am refunding Joe, and Broc me. None of us think it is fair to stick somebody with a fake so, sadly, the buck is stopping at whomever purchased from Scott and hoping he will refund them. This does not seem to be the case anymore though.

I also let go one of mine in trade. That was also priven fake and now I have to try make good on that trade and I get stuck with the fake piece unless Scott refunds me. It's a mess. At least this is the way some of us are dealing. Not sure if it is the law but some of us want to make sure people are taken care of who bought/traded from/with us.

John



This says a lot about you guys. This is trully a proof friendship and honor, I wish more people would act and react that way. I'm glad that the top collectors are decent people like you.

--------------------
Henrik Wulff Rasmussen
Variations Wanted (Updated 05-31-08)

Edited by HWR (09/22/10 03:52 AM)


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gus



Reged: 11/14/01
Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: Warning - Fake hardopy prototypes discovered [Re: cfawcett]
      #4344953 - 09/22/10 03:28 AM

Scott really should come forward and respond to what's been said. His lack of response is not helping his case.

Gus

Edited by gus (09/22/10 03:30 AM)


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Bjamin_S



Reged: 05/13/01
Loc: The home of backwards spinning...
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: tapuvae]
      #4344960 - 09/22/10 03:48 AM

tapuvae wrote:
Any reason the parting lines on legit pieces would be a different color under a black light?



That'd be where they've been sanded I suspect.

--------------------
HFC premiers 2008.
www.swproofcards.com


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phase_3



Reged: 08/09/02
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Bjamin_S]
      #4344972 - 09/22/10 04:49 AM

This is really horrible, to say the least.

I feel bad for everyone who has been ripped off by this guy.

Is there a chance that legal action can be instigated?

Surely there must be some way of recovering your money?

All the best,
Rob.

--------------------
I'm after C-9 offerless, unpunched ESB carded figures!


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ChrisGeorgoulias



Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Bjamin_S]
      #4344994 - 09/22/10 06:25 AM

Bjamin_S wrote:
tapuvae wrote:
Any reason the parting lines on legit pieces would be a different color under a black light?



That'd be where they've been sanded I suspect.



Actually, it's not the sanding. It appears to be remnants of mold-release agent or the age of that material. As you can see, the Han Bespin legs are not sanded. Whatever it is, it's not the same on the parting line surfaces I observed on Scott's pieces and there are sanded parting lines all over on many of them. Some are not sanded.

Here's a better example of how the parting lines differ under black light. Specifically here I show a sanded surface on the bad Luke Bespin leg and how it compares to a lightly sanded Blue Snaggletooth and a Han Bespin with no sanding.



--------------------
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com

Edited by ChrisGeorgoulias (09/22/10 06:38 AM)


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ChrisGeorgoulias



Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
Re: Warning - Fake hardopy prototypes discovered [Re: gus]
      #4344997 - 09/22/10 06:34 AM

gus wrote:
Scott really should come forward and respond to what's been said. His lack of response is not helping his case.

Gus



Although it's not really different than him ducking out of Celebration V (held in his own home town) days early after people started questioning him and the pieces he was consigning with Hollywood Heroes.

Again, actions speak volumes.

-chris

--------------------
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com


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ZAC_THE_STAR_WARS_MAC



Reged: 07/09/02
Loc: Cincinnati
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Bill_Wills]
      #4345001 - 09/22/10 06:46 AM

Bill_Wills wrote:
Todd - I've wondered about the FBI as well. I've heard it takes a large amount of money before it will attract their attention, but I've heard some pretty big numbers thrown around. The problem is who knows how long it will take to determine the scope of the damage? And it's my understanding that there are international folks who were victimized as well which just adds to the complexity. At this point, I'm certain *lots* of evidence has been destroyed...


Sounds to me like the authorities would be interested. I am guessing he did not claim any of this income on tax's either. So if you got 3 or 4 people on here for a couple thousand I am guessing we are talking well over $10,000 and the IRS would like a phone call also.

--------------------
The things you own end up owning you


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Todd_Hudson



Reged: 02/15/03
Loc: Maui HI
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ZAC_THE_STAR_WARS_MAC]
      #4345007 - 09/22/10 06:57 AM

ZAC_THE_STAR_WARS_MAC wrote:
Bill_Wills wrote:
Todd - I've wondered about the FBI as well. I've heard it takes a large amount of money before it will attract their attention, but I've heard some pretty big numbers thrown around. The problem is who knows how long it will take to determine the scope of the damage? And it's my understanding that there are international folks who were victimized as well which just adds to the complexity. At this point, I'm certain *lots* of evidence has been destroyed...


Sounds to me like the authorities would be interested. I am guessing he did not claim any of this income on tax's either. So if you got 3 or 4 people on here for a couple thousand I am guessing we are talking well over $10,000 and the IRS would like a phone call also.



Would the IRS being involved unless it was proven that he actually made the items? I mean you can buy and sell items like ebay if its not a business...of course if they could prove he made the pieces then it would make sense that they could get him for tax evasion.

-Todd-

--------------------
"Now if your stealing money from your grandma and donating plasma to complete your Cheif Chirpa focus bootleg set then thats no fun and should probably be avoided."
http://WWW.TODDONMAUI.COM


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cfawcett



Reged: 11/06/00
Loc: North Carolina
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Todd_Hudson]
      #4345027 - 09/22/10 07:45 AM

Here's some pics of mine. Some points to notice:

1. Holster not hollowed out on one piece.
2. The cowl areas do not match between the two and one of them is not like any production or hardcopy ever seen.
3. Lots of air bubbles.
4. Terrible details on the legs, especially the back of the painted one.
5. Paint job is very sloppy.
6. Right hand has the odd "bubble finger" variation only seen in production toys, proving this was cast off a production part.
7. Fails the blacklight test (one of the pieces in Chris' post above is one of the legs off my figure).

Cj



--------------------
WTB: First Shot Warok, Palitoy ESB Han Hoth, PBP Han Hoth (ESB & ROTJ)

Vintage Toy Archive: http://www.12back.com

Edited by cfawcett (09/22/10 08:01 AM)


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Dave_Macleod



Reged: 07/19/03
Loc: Australia
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: cfawcett]
      #4345044 - 09/22/10 08:11 AM

Well the cat's out of the bag now.

Since hearing about this a few weeks ago, I had been wondering when it would be made public.

It's terrible and unfortunatly this will tarnish the hobby for years.

When I was told about the sold faked hardcopys I thought it was only a hand full of collectors affected with fake accessories , but the numbers affected and items faked seem vast and over such a period?

DO all the larger POTF coins lead back to mcwilliams too?

I truly hope all are able to get their money back.

-Dave

--------------------
WTB: -KENNER:"SO" Vader Tie(mib)-GLASSLITE:Nave Imperial(mib)-POTF COINS:Luke-Tauntaun, Greedo,
Leia-Boushh, Sail Skiff, Tusken Raider.-LILY LEDY:12" Vader & Jawa (mib)

Edited by Dave_Macleod (09/23/10 05:31 AM)


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Daniel_Bornheim



Reged: 08/16/06
Loc: Sweden
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Dave_Macleod]
      #4345058 - 09/22/10 08:31 AM

Here´s my at-at commander head, probably a fake to, got lots of air bubbles and also leads back to Mcwilliams.



--------------------
LF: At-At driver and At-At Commander pre-production items.

Edited by Daniel_Bornheim (09/22/10 08:31 AM)


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ZAC_THE_STAR_WARS_MAC



Reged: 07/09/02
Loc: Cincinnati
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Todd_Hudson]
      #4345064 - 09/22/10 08:40 AM

Todd_Hudson wrote:
ZAC_THE_STAR_WARS_MAC wrote:
Bill_Wills wrote:
Todd - I've wondered about the FBI as well. I've heard it takes a large amount of money before it will attract their attention, but I've heard some pretty big numbers thrown around. The problem is who knows how long it will take to determine the scope of the damage? And it's my understanding that there are international folks who were victimized as well which just adds to the complexity. At this point, I'm certain *lots* of evidence has been destroyed...


Sounds to me like the authorities would be interested. I am guessing he did not claim any of this income on tax's either. So if you got 3 or 4 people on here for a couple thousand I am guessing we are talking well over $10,000 and the IRS would like a phone call also.



Would the IRS being involved unless it was proven that he actually made the items? I mean you can buy and sell items like ebay if its not a business...of course if they could prove he made the pieces then it would make sense that they could get him for tax evasion.

-Todd-


I meant to say $100,000. You have to claim that. The general rule is that all
income is subject to tax. The IRS defines income as financial gain derived from work or labor. Income may be earned or unearned; earned income comes from services performed while examples of unearned income may be royalties from artistic works or rental income. When you make income the government taxes you by a percentage based on the amount of your income, and other factors. How does this work? First and foremost learn to be an excellent, diligent record-keeper. Keep every receipt and invoice for all purchases. I doubt he did this so he would already have 1 strike against him. Hobby expenses are deductible up to the amount of hobby income reported on the tax return. Hobby income is entered on line 21 of IRS Form 1040; the category is Other Income. But this income may be offset by your expenses. Your hobby expenses are deducted on Form 1040 Schedule A on line 22. I doubt he had much expenses to off set these huge gains.
In other words he would have owed money on this. I made a small mistake with my wife's unemployment a couple years ago and they came after that $200 like pitbulls. We have people on here throwing out big numbers. It is always best to go ahead and declare your extra income; if the IRS finds out about it anyway, you may incur penalties for paying insufficient tax in addition to the extra tax you may owe. If he dose not offer full refunds just tell him your going to make a phone call and report him. If this was happening over several years which from reading this thread I gather it was it is also fraud along with tax evasion and he is looking at a min 5 years.The failure to file a federal tax return is a misdemeanor, but a consistent pattern of failure to file for several years will constitute evidence that these failures were part of a scheme to avoid the payment of taxes. If this pattern is established, the violator may be charged with a felony under section 7201 of the INTERNAL REVENUE CODE. Really if i was one of the people that was ripped off I would not give him the chance to refund I would file a report with my local police then state then make the call to the IRS with as many other collectors names and $ spent as I could gather.

--------------------
The things you own end up owning you


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TheTuskenRaider



Reged: 06/20/10
Loc: Jundland Wastes.
Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Bobafettguy]
      #4345082 - 09/22/10 09:04 AM

This is a terrible situation to say the least. I have to say that I feel utterly terrible for all of the collectors here who have been duped by this guys fake prototypes. Its a sad sad day when these situations come about... .

--------------------
Mos Eisley a wretched hive of scum and villainy.



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acedecade75



Reged: 07/06/02
Loc: USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Broc]
      #4345093 - 09/22/10 09:13 AM

Scott got me for $5000 on a bad Admiral Screed hardcopy and Morag staff. It think it was 2008 when I got these from him. It'sreally dissapointing. I've gotten some other stuf from him(non hardcopies) that turned out ok. I didn't think he was this desperate for money. I believe he's an ear doctor.

I have tried contacting him ,and of course, he is not responding. I hope we have more luck as group or potentialy with legal action.

I'll try to get some pictures of the fake pieces uploaded later today.


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KevinA



Reged: 08/29/05
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: TheTuskenRaider]
      #4345094 - 09/22/10 09:15 AM

I just kind of realized something. My first response was: Oh man, these guys are out thousands of dollars. And I feel for you guys on that.

I'm kind of putting myself in your shoes now and also realize it is a double whammy. You are out thousands of dollars and you just lost something(s) that was probably up there as the pride and glory in your collections.

Losing the money sucks, but the emotional realization of what you really have in your collections must really sting. What a terrible situation


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acedecade75



Reged: 07/06/02
Loc: USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: KevinA]
      #4345152 - 09/22/10 10:27 AM

You are right. Personaly, I would rather have an authentic Admiral Screed and Morag staff as opposed to the $5000. Though at this point, I guess the focus has to be on seeking restitution from Scott, identifying all the fake pieces, and hopefully making sure that this type of an incident does not happen again. But, collecting will continue. I still love the unproduced pieces.

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JohnA



Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: KevinA]
      #4345157 - 09/22/10 10:31 AM

KevinA wrote:

Losing the money sucks, but the emotional realization of what you really have in your collections must really sting. What a terrible situation



How about the fact that I sold pieces I liked to fund these and now I'll have to sell pieces I like to pay some people back who later bought or traded with me. I've just lost twice. It's not a nice place to be in.

John

--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character

-Shai Hulud


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_Darren_



Reged: 01/27/03
Loc: UK
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: KevinA]
      #4345174 - 09/22/10 10:42 AM

Horrendous,horrible and downright deplorable!!!

I hate to be a cynic(although anybody who knows me would say the opposite)but the amounts of money we are talking about here will decimate the proto/hardcopy market forever...Most new(ish)collectors won't dare go near this very exclusive part of the hobby,now and i'm sure many who got duped will forever have a bad taste(and empty wallet)


Its the sheer cost and networking many of you had to do jumping through hoops and making contacts just to be in a "queue" that made eventually scoring one so rewarding....heck I bet the cost was nearly secondary.....

And then to find out its fake!!!

I can't imagine the disappointment!!!Or ANGER!!!

If Scott's not on his way to Mexico i'm sure,with the amounts we are talking about,you guys should co-ordinate some sort of legal case,or trip to his home demanding compensation and/or full refunds!!!

I mean,its BillyBoy all over again.....


You know having nearly completed my production run,i was considering where to go next in the hobby.....

Thankfully this came to light before chose Proto's

Best of luck to all(that were conned)in this mess...I hope(although i doubt)for a positive outcome!!


Darren.

--------------------
Iam the artist formerly known as Darth Fusion


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Youthberg



Reged: 02/02/05
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: KevinA]
      #4345176 - 09/22/10 10:45 AM

KevinA wrote:
I just kind of realized something. My first response was: Oh man, these guys are out thousands of dollars. And I feel for you guys on that.

I'm kind of putting myself in your shoes now and also realize it is a double whammy. You are out thousands of dollars and you just lost something(s) that was probably up there as the pride and glory in your collections.

Losing the money sucks, but the emotional realization of what you really have in your collections must really sting. What a terrible situation



My thoughts too, I really feel for you guys

A little bit OT maybe, but are any of these fake prototypes featured in Gus & Duncan's prototype book? I'm asking since I guess that it was printed before anyone knew about this mess?

--------------------
SSWC | 2-1B


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MartijnEmmelot



Reged: 08/13/02
Loc: the Netherlands
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: _Darren_]
      #4345179 - 09/22/10 10:47 AM

_Darren_ wrote:

I mean,its BillyBoy all over again.....



It is more like Bill Rodgers multiplied with Pablo Artesi ... this is huge!
Truly feel bad sad and mad for all involved! Hope everybody gets what they deserve (including Scott)

~Martijn

--------------------
www.starswar.eu
Yeah,you can definetly tell they are polish.No one else would ruin star wars figures with those colors.


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Christian



Reged: 04/19/02
Loc: Somerset, UK
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: KevinA]
      #4345188 - 09/22/10 10:54 AM

FWIW I sincerely hope that Scott does repair at least the financial damage he's allegedly caused for the sake of those who have lost out. However, a scam of this scale 'could' lead to the kind of thing that Tom was referring to within the vintage TF world in his tome of a post a few days ago: irreparable damage with long lasting consequences. I sincerely hope not.

Anyway, here is a copy of a FS list I received from Scott in 2008. I guess that the more information that is in the public domain about the protos he had for FS the better (I realise that this list is perhaps only the 'tip of the iceberg').



Good luck to all who got caught up in this mess - just glad I didn't buy the painted HC Biker Scout a while back.

Regards,
Christian

--------------------
WANTED:'Premium Offer of Collector Stand' Mailaway Coupon/Paperwork from EB Set - TOP MONEY PAID!


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skye



Reged: 08/31/04
Loc: Hothchester, NY
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Christian]
      #4345201 - 09/22/10 11:15 AM

This is probably the worst thing ever, in terms of the hobby. Like many, I heard the whispers, but it is something else to get some idea of the scale of the thievery. The only bright side is the honor shown by the wronged parties, especially John and Broc.

( BTW, Steve and I are recording our next podcast tomorrow night, and if anyone wants to speak on this feel free to let me know. Heck, if Scott is reading this and wants a forum to speak we would give him the opportunity.)

--------------------
Star Wars Collectors Archive Podcast: Collect all 8! WAMPA WAMPA!!!

The Chewbacca Museum The Chewseum


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CloudCity_Gangzr



Reged: 04/26/07
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: acedecade75]
      #4345202 - 09/22/10 11:16 AM

At this point it would foolish of Scott to reply, don’t you think? He probably cant/wont cover the financial ramifications of this exploding situation. With potential civil or criminal lawsuits on the horizon, him speaking publicly would not be wise. I’m no legal expert either, but the burden of proof is difficult here. It sounds like there is a lot of proof of sale, but proof that he intentionally defrauded us is another matter. I wasn’t a part of it but ‘us’ feels appropriate.

With all of this coming to light, and Scott playing the conspiracy card. I’m curious to know what Scott’s story was. Is he denying the process described by Chris is exclusive? I’m assuming that process is 100% consistent on all known legit HCs. Prior to his silence was he submitting that HCs were done Chris' way and some were done with an injection technique?

I’m sure he’s reading this. This is certainly not the place to discuss future legal plans, if there are to be any.


Chad

--------------------
RS Feedback


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Uncle_Gundy



Reged: 10/12/01
Loc: Asia
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Christian]
      #4345203 - 09/22/10 11:16 AM

Christian wrote:








I ended up with that Chithur hardcopy head on that list

Uncle Gundy

--------------------
In case of emergency, breakdance


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Daniel_Bornheim]
      #4345205 - 09/22/10 11:20 AM

Daniel_Bornheim wrote:
Here´s my at-at commander head, probably a fake to, got lots of air bubbles and also leads back to Mcwilliams.





Detail and casting quality look poor. Hardcopies should be very smooth-surfaced and highly detailed.

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ChrisGeorgoulias]
      #4345210 - 09/22/10 11:33 AM

ChrisGeorgoulias wrote:
I think this one single photo speaks volumes. It also helps to show that buying and trying to analyze from a regular photo can be difficult.

Under normal lighting conditions, and with a fairly low-res photo, these items all look basically the same. However, when you shine a black light onto the group you get an entirely different view.





This blacklight stuff is awesome, but it's important to remember that the alleged fakes also show quite a few differences in detail when compared with known legit examples.

The real Bossk legs, for instance, contain lots of little details that don't show up on either the alleged fakes or the production figure.

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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CloudCity_Gangzr



Reged: 04/26/07
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: _Darren_]
      #4345216 - 09/22/10 11:40 AM

_Darren_ wrote:

I hate to be a cynic(although anybody who knows me would say the opposite)but the amounts of money we are talking about here will decimate the proto/hardcopy market forever...Most new(ish)collectors won't dare go near this very exclusive part of the hobby,now and i'm sure many who got duped will forever have a bad taste(and empty wallet)




I was thinking the same thing. I didn’t want to throw gasoline on the fire. The effects of this are potential catastrophic. It is a direct hit on the foundations of the Hardcopy market(for lack of a better word). It makes me angry.

Chad

--------------------
RS Feedback


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Pharmdeon



Reged: 08/24/06
Loc: in Arizona
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Dave_Macleod]
      #4345225 - 09/22/10 11:49 AM

Dave_Macleod wrote:

DO all the larger POTF coins lead back to mcwilliams too?

-Dave



I had been debating whether or not to post this, but ...

I know that this is not the same, kind of like comparing apples and oranges -- both are fruit ...

About a year ago just prior to when the whole thick/thin coin information came out I contacted Scott via PM to see if he had any coin protos based on a reply by him in a WTB coin thread. He replied saying he did have some. It was a month or so before I could get back to him and when I did, they were all gone. He did reply that he had a silver 63rd coin that was thicker. He noted at that time that it was not a remake and "However no matter what the boys say there was never a remake". He proceeded to tell me that he found the source for these thicker coins and this source still had some dies and hobbs left. He also told me that 46 (I think it was 46) of the dies and hobbs were owned by this "source" and most of the good ones were sold in 94-95. I asked if if this person still had any left to sell. He then went into the "politics" and stated a lot of the big time coin collectors were trying to discredit this source and the thicker coins because they were "angry" that he (Scott) had tapped into their (the big coin collectors) source. I then asked if he could contact this person as I wanted to buy a set of dies/hobbs. His response was this "I will call him sometime this week and ask him about them.
If he does not mind I will put you in direct touch.
However be careful not to let the boys know because you will catch alot of flack. "
After this, all conversation with him went dead and I have not heard from him since.

Now, I do not know Scott at all except for the series of PMs ... seemed nice enough, even gave me his number to call him to discuss the coins. I can not comment on the hardcopy situation at all as I did not buy anything from Scott, but I wanted to share the above info as it seems to show a pattern i.e. keep it secret, the politics of collecting, etc.

It sucks that so many people got duped but at the same time it shows how a lot of the collectors here have great character.

Deon

--------------------
Deon
Member of the 62 club!
Wanted: rare coin items
My (small) Feedback


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: tapuvae]
      #4345227 - 09/22/10 11:49 AM

tapuvae wrote:
Any reason the parting lines on legit pieces would be a different color under a black light?



When I was casting stuff, I often used a white material. The parting lines on the pieces I cast would often show up as yellow.

When you pull these things out of a mold, the underlying material is usually still curing to some extent (the pieces are literally still warm due to the chemical reaction). On the smooth surfaces, this isn't an issue. But at the parting line there is always a bit of flashing, and tearing that off exposes the underlying material. I suspect that when that hits the air, it cures really quickly, and that's what produces the darker color.

Either that or the catalyst portion of the two-part material tends to collect at the parting line for some reason.

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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CloudCity_Gangzr



Reged: 04/26/07
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Pharmdeon]
      #4345234 - 09/22/10 12:00 PM

Scott is not the source of the 'reprint' coins. He had several at one point. He also has quite an elaborate tale to explain their thickness and still proclaim them to be vintage. I have personally dug very deep into his story and found it to be false.

-Chad

--------------------
RS Feedback


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12p542



Reged: 08/17/10
Loc: New York City
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ronsalvatore]
      #4345236 - 09/22/10 12:01 PM

Terrible news to everyone. Hopefully, things will be resolved for those affected.

Now a hypothetical question: wouldn't the following be some sort of a recipe for better fakes?

ronsalvatore wrote:

5) Kenner only painted nice, nearly flawless hardcopies. No painted hardcopy I've ever seen has air bubbles, visible casting flaws, etc.

6) Most of the "unfinished" and/or random hardcopy parts out there came from contacts associated with the old Kenner model shop. Many of them were Ed's contacts. The other sources mostly had complete (and usually painted) hardcopies. If someone offers you random or flaw-ridden parts that cannot be traced back to a good source, regard it as a red flag. The great majority of hardcopies that made it out of Kenner were complete.

7) Hardcopies always, always have better detail than production figures. It's finer, tighter, etc. If the details on something you're looking at are bulbous or muddy, question it.

8) A protomolded figure should not have air bubbles in it. It's injection-molded plastic!

9) As far as I know, legit protomolded parts have not turned up in any quantity. Protomolded figures are virtually always complete, and they're usually fully painted. If someone offers you a protomolded head or arm -- red flag.




That is, in the absence of provenance and legit sources.

Edited by 12p542 (09/22/10 12:04 PM)


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acedecade75



Reged: 07/06/02
Loc: USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: 12p542]
      #4345255 - 09/22/10 12:22 PM

Here are some pictures of the bad Admiral Screed hardcopy and Morag staff:

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u196/acedecade75/SCOTT%20MCWILLIAMS%20PIECES/AdmiralScreedPaintedHardcopy.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u196/acedecade75/SCOTT%20MCWILLIAMS%20PIECES/MoragStafffHardcopyCastInGreenDynacast.jpg


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Pharmdeon



Reged: 08/24/06
Loc: in Arizona
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: CloudCity_Gangzr]
      #4345263 - 09/22/10 12:30 PM

I did not suspect he was, he claimed to know the source though. My whole point was to note the secrecy and "politics" of that situation.

Again, I hope ALL of those involved get their just dues.

--------------------
Deon
Member of the 62 club!
Wanted: rare coin items
My (small) Feedback


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Mattias_Rendahl



Reged: 09/07/04
Loc: S W E D E N
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Pharmdeon]
      #4345310 - 09/22/10 01:09 PM

I'm one of the victims as well. I got the painted and unpainted Lumat from that list plus a few carbalon parts.

One year ago I bought one painted and one unpainted Lumat from Scott. The painted one supposedly came from the Earth, today I really regret not checking that history back then, but I had no reason not to believe Scott. When rumours started I began to check my stuff more closely, I checked the provenance and the painted Lumat didn't come from the Earth. I sent him an email, Scott changes his story and said he never had said it came from the Earth. I showed him the email (which I of course have saved), he then changed the story and said it came from Intergalactic. I now looked more closely on my Lumats and realized they didn't look good. Gus and Duncan came to visit and confirmed that they didn't look good. Especially the unpainted one. I believe they were both cast from one original hard copy since they both have some identical flaws, but more about that shortly.

When I went through an old computer I found the picture of the Lumats which Scott sent me before we made the deal. I noticed the unpainted hard copy in the picture didn't match the one I had recieved. Mine had many air bubbles, looked completely wrong in color etc etc. And the one in the original picture had a broken ear and mine was complete. I contacted Scott again and asked how in the world something like that had happened. By now I was of course sure they were fake. This was back in May. Scott stopped answering my emails and I didn't hear back from him until I met him at CV. During set-up on thursday, he took me outside and gave me a box which contained "the real Lumat", I'm almost sure Scott accidentally even said exactly like that, but am not 100% sure. But it was something like that. I got quite shocked and I returned my original painted and unpainted Lumats to him which by now had been looked at by a lot of people. And I wanted the refund for the painted one. Which he said would be taken care of, but he didn't do that. I spoke to him several days but he always had excuses and ran away when I asked for my refund.

I realized I wouldn't get my money back so I started to try to get one of his legit pieces with rock solid provenance. But he said he wasn't able to do so because they were for sale in Jordan's booth and he didn't want to use those items for trades since Jordan wanted commission on that suff. Which I understood. But I kept trying and the day before he disapeared from CV he gave me a box and said I should have that instead of the painted Lumat. I was hoping it to be one of the legit pieces which were in the HH booth. But it turned out to be a Leia Poncho Hard Copy. Which on closer inspection also was fake. probably the worst fake I've ever seen and definitely cast from a production figure.

That was the end of part 1. Now I need to rush but wanted to post something today, more to come tomorrow (or later tonight if I come home in decent time).

Mattias

PS. sorry for spelling errors and maybe some details I've missed.

--------------------
Looking for all kind of prototypes, especially for Luke Farmboy, Leia Hoth, Dengar and Endor related characters

Edited by Mattias_Rendahl (09/23/10 05:23 AM)


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Delboy75



Reged: 01/15/03
Loc: England
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: JohnA]
      #4345318 - 09/22/10 01:14 PM

Wow guys this is really really sad news.

I'm in shock that someone could pull off a scam to this scale. This is huge, i really feel for everyone involved.

Its bad enough loosing huge sums of money, but having one of your most prized possesions confirmed fake must be a real heartache. Its not nice being scammed by someone you class as a friend, i just hope he refunds all parties involved (sadly tho i doubt this will be the case).

Hopefully you guys can all pull together and take this guy to the cleaners. He has made a small fortune out of these worthless fakes, harmed the proto market to the point where it will put peope off collecting them, and ripped off highly respected collectors/friends in the process.

Del

--------------------
WANTED, ESB MOC & Last 17 Tri logo with £1.59 sticker!
http://community.webshots.com/user/delboy1975


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wooten



Reged: 09/13/00
Loc: Galloway, OH
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: CloudCity_Gangzr]
      #4345324 - 09/22/10 01:21 PM

CloudCity_Gangzr wrote:
_Darren_ wrote:

I hate to be a cynic(although anybody who knows me would say the opposite)but the amounts of money we are talking about here will decimate the proto/hardcopy market forever...Most new(ish)collectors won't dare go near this very exclusive part of the hobby,now and i'm sure many who got duped will forever have a bad taste(and empty wallet)




I was thinking the same thing. I didn’t want to throw gasoline on the fire. The effects of this are potential catastrophic. It is a direct hit on the foundations of the Hardcopy market(for lack of a better word). It makes me angry.

Chad



To be honest, no new collector should just be diving into this part of the hobby anyway. It's always a good idea to get provenance and ask tons of questions, run things by experts, etc. The problem with this is there was enough legitimate stuff to create trust and less questions were asked than there should have been. It happens, and it wont happen again to be sure. Sure, everyone's credibility takes a hit here, but in the end, this should just reinforce to everyone that there isn't much of this stuff around and questions must be asked and verified whenever possible. I don't think it's a 'deal breaker' in terms of trusting the experts. I think that field may be smaller than it was before this scam, but I still think there are key people that I have 1000% faith in being able to determine if something is real or not.

In general, most of this kind of stuff came from a few solid sources direct from Kenner engineers, photographers, and designers and the community has become a little lackadaisical over the years since most of the stuff was coming from one group of guys. Over the years, things have been bought, sold and sold again and sometimes we're all guilty of taking the sellers word for it that it was from a certain person or the dubious "kenner employee". The problem was of course compounded by the secrecy of the market, which the seller certainly used to his advantage.

I applaud everyone for coming forward about this. This stuff's been questionable for some time although I had no idea the extent to which it occurred. The frustrating thing was that there was legitimate stuff involved as well. I personally only dealt with Scott one time, and I'm in the process of confirming his story on that piece. I do remember it was in response to a post here on RS about hardcopies being available. Since I started collecting again, I've been passively interested in getting a 3 3/4 hardcopy and was interested in what he had for sale. It was sort of a pain to exchange emails infrequently or be asked to call him to discuss so I never really followed through on anything.

In the end, this is a lesson to everyone and I hope that it ends up being less costly than it seems right now. To new collectors, I would say use caution as you would with any purchase. Learn your stuff, validate it and re-validate it. Don't be afraid to ask questions. If a seller wants it kept quiet, or if they have an unusual quantity of 'rare' stuff, that should be a huge red flag now if it wasn't before, even in a relatively secretive aspect of the hobby. I don't want to speak for anyone, but I think you could never go wrong asking Ron or Chris Georgoulias to verify a piece for you. Those two, along with a few others like Gus, Ed, Chris Fawcett, Tom Derby and Todd Chamberlain have handled more hardcopies than anyone else ever will. They've talked to the kenner guys at length and still have access to those original guys if needed. I would always rely on their opinion. In fact, Scott's own comments about 'the boys' being upset show how respected their opinions should be, as well as how silly it is for people to fall into the idea that any of them are motivated to do anything other than what's best for the hobby. The notion that they would not authenticate anything that didn't come from them is 'valid' only to someone concerned about the origins of their stuff.


-John

--------------------
John Wooten
http://www.oswcc.com
http://www.theswca.com

Edited by wooten (09/24/10 08:31 AM)


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ThorOakenfelder



Reged: 06/01/05
Loc: East Mesa Arizona
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: wooten]
      #4345348 - 09/22/10 01:40 PM

wow, just wow. What a complex, convoluted, and terrible tale. It seems to me that fraud on that scale constitutes a felony, and selling fraudulent items internationally is probably a good way to get yourself into a really deep hole.

I feel bad for everyone who got scammed by this guy. Although it is fascinating when so many big guns contribute to a thread like this with info about legit pieces and such.

--------------------
Got a vintage question? have you read The FAQ?


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Leif_G



Reged: 02/01/06
Loc: BC, Canada
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: KevinA]
      #4345352 - 09/22/10 01:43 PM

KevinA wrote:
cfawcett wrote:
Kevin,

I see what you're thinking, but the pieces stolen from the C5 booth were Scott's pieces.

Cj



I'm a terrible detective! I guess it can still look suspicious given the circumstances - maybe a way to try and get money out of HH. Or a way to hide fakes when asked to see them? Anyways, I don't know Scott so I'll stop there.




Or maybe someone got taken for a ride by Scott and decided to help themselves to some compensation?

Leif

--------------------
Leif's Trade Feedback


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DarthZilla71



Reged: 01/08/08
Loc: Glendale, California
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Leif_G]
      #4345372 - 09/22/10 02:10 PM

This is really a crazy sad situation, I hope everyone involved gets their money back or some sort of "real" compensation. It makes you feel kind of sick to your stomach when you realize how long this has been going on and how many fakes have now infected this aspect of the hobby, truly sad.

-Mark

--------------------
Got Mortar Heads?
http://mortarheads.com/


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Leif_G



Reged: 02/01/06
Loc: BC, Canada
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: DarthZilla71]
      #4345387 - 09/22/10 02:25 PM

DarthZilla71 wrote:
...and how many fakes have now infected this aspect of the hobby, truly sad.




This brings up a question for me....

Presumably, people who are stuck with trying to get compensation from Scott are keeping their 'fakes' for now, until the situation has been resolved. But what happens afterward? Will people be destroying these fake items?

Leif

--------------------
Leif's Trade Feedback


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cfawcett



Reged: 11/06/00
Loc: North Carolina
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Leif_G]
      #4345412 - 09/22/10 02:44 PM

I will probably keep mine for curiosity's sake, kinda like the Blue Harvest stuff that people have kept. But I certainly would never sell them, even under the explanation that they're fakes, because once their out of my hands, they could be pawned off again as real.

Chris came up with the idea of calling this the Green Harvest based on this shirt: http://theswca.com/index.php?action=disp_item&item_id=74388

I think it's pretty apropos considering the $ involved and that dynacast is green.

Cj

--------------------
WTB: First Shot Warok, Palitoy ESB Han Hoth, PBP Han Hoth (ESB & ROTJ)

Vintage Toy Archive: http://www.12back.com

Edited by cfawcett (09/22/10 02:47 PM)


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Arnaud



Reged: 07/07/05
Loc: Paris, France
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Leif_G]
      #4345426 - 09/22/10 02:55 PM

I'm sorry to hear about this and see so many nice people victims of such a large-scale fraud.

I have never bought anything from Scott McWilliams. I never believed his stories. Still, like everybody else, I will need to check if I didn't get pieces from someone else that originated from him.

Now we may not always agree on everything here but a case like this brings us all together, even if we are not direct victims ourselves. Such a nasty attack on our hobby hurts just about everybody.

I suggest all victims unite and sue Scott together. I will gladly contribute to the legal costs of such group action even if I'm not a victim.

Now a few words to Scott McWilliams himself: if you read this, as I believe you are, this is serious fraud and the fraud will be proven. This means you will have to refund these people even if it takes your lifetime. Now the only question is, will you go to jail?

One way or another, you will have to face the consequences of your actions. Right now, the scale of it and the huge sums in question probably make you feel like your only choice is to hide and hope it all goes away. But it won't go away. This is way too serious.

So either you get the courage to talk to your victims and offer them compensation and you will have a chance at avoiding jail.

Or you don't get in touch with your victims and you will end up having to refund them AND you will go to jail.

The choice is yours.


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Leif_G



Reged: 02/01/06
Loc: BC, Canada
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: cfawcett]
      #4345430 - 09/22/10 02:58 PM

cfawcett wrote:
I will probably keep mine for curiosity's sake, kinda like the Blue Harvest stuff that people have kept. But I certainly would never sell them, even under the explanation that they're fakes, because once their out of my hands, they could be pawned off again as real.




I know this is a bit... morbid. But what about the idea of leaving some instructions to destroy it if you were to kick off, so it doesn't end up in an estate sale?

Also, could it be that these 'Green Harvest' fakes might actually become collectible the same way the 'Blue Harvest' fakes have become sought after to some extent?

Leif

--------------------
Leif's Trade Feedback


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Lee_Bullock



Reged: 09/25/02
Loc: united kingdom
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Arnaud]
      #4345454 - 09/22/10 03:17 PM

Arnaud wrote:
I'm sorry to hear about this and see so many nice people victims of such a large-scale fraud.

I have never bought anything from Scott McWilliams. I never believed his stories. Still, like everybody else, I will need to check if I didn't get pieces from someone else that originated from him.

Now we may not always agree on everything here but a case like this brings us all together, even if we are not direct victims ourselves. Such a nasty attack on our hobby hurts just about everybody.

I suggest all victims unite and sue Scott together. I will gladly contribute to the legal costs of such group action even if I'm not a victim.

Now a few words to Scott McWilliams himself: if you read this, as I believe you are, this is serious fraud and the fraud will be proven. This means you will have to refund these people even if it takes your lifetime. Now the only question is, will you go to jail?

One way or another, you will have to face the consequences of your actions. Right now, the scale of it and the huge sums in question probably make you feel like your only choice is to hide and hope it all goes away. But it won't go away. This is way too serious.

So either you get the courage to talk to your victims and offer them compensation and you will have a chance at avoiding jail.

Or you don't get in touch with your victims and you will end up having to refund them AND you will go to jail.

The choice is yours.



Kudos to you Arnaud for offering these guys to help with the legal costs - that speaks a thousand words of your commitment to the hobby - yes we may not as a comunnity always agree but in the face of such a nasty attack on the hobby - an attack on one facet of the hobby is an attack on all facets.

I just hope Scott mans up now, and not when he is trying to avoid jail time when he is bought to justice.

--------------------
PALITOY and foreign 12" wanted.
When Joe's head cracks, when that big head cracks
It's "Welcome back, Joe. Welcome back, Joe." BIG BLACK


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spoons



Reged: 02/12/06
Loc: Oxford, England
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Lee_Bullock]
      #4345461 - 09/22/10 03:25 PM

I really feel for everyone affected. I know it's small fry in comparison, but having been caught in the Billy Boy scam, I know how it feels when a centrepiece of a collection suddenly becomes a meaningless fake.

I'm sure Scott will be brought to justice eventually


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Jeff_R



Reged: 05/16/06
Loc: California
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Dave_Macleod]
      #4345520 - 09/22/10 04:25 PM



My heart goes out to you guys that have been affected by this. I can't imagine the frustration you are going through right now. I hope this guy gets what he deserves!

-Jeff

Edited by Jeff_R (09/22/10 04:31 PM)


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Todd_Hudson



Reged: 02/15/03
Loc: Maui HI
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Jeff_R]
      #4345530 - 09/22/10 04:32 PM

Jeff_R wrote:
Dave_Macleod wrote:


DO all the larger POTF coins lead back to mcwilliams too?





I was actually curious about this myself. Are there now coin hardcopies or any micro 4-ups that trace back to Scott, and would now be in question? Or is this situation limited to figure related items?

My heart goes out to you guys that have been affected by this. I can't imagine the frustration you are going through right now. I hope this guy gets what he deserves!

-Jeff



Jeff,

pretty sure no 6-ups have been faked...those would be pretty easy to tell plus I don't believe he even owns any 6-ups..unless he bought them in past couple of years.

Can't speak for 4-ups but I do remember him owning 4-ups in wax and dynacast so it wouldn't be impossible for that to have happened

Todd

--------------------
"Now if your stealing money from your grandma and donating plasma to complete your Cheif Chirpa focus bootleg set then thats no fun and should probably be avoided."
http://WWW.TODDONMAUI.COM


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JohnA



Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: CloudCity_Gangzr]
      #4345544 - 09/22/10 04:41 PM

CloudCity_Gangzr wrote:
Scott is not the source of the 'reprint' coins. He had several at one point. He also has quite an elaborate tale to explain their thickness and still proclaim them to be vintage. I have personally dug very deep into his story and found it to be false.

-Chad



Are you sure about that? I've heard he most definitely was the source. Though there is no solid proof many believe he had them made by a contact inside Osborne. There's a good chance all of those are bogus modern restrikes too and never served any purpose, even as POTF2 tests. I added that Zuckuss because I wanted the coin but I'm fairly certain it's just the coin version of a Blue Harvest HC, a filler and nothing more. If it weren't struck from the same dies I wouldn't even think about it. I've heard from more than one reliable source he had them made and the story he clings to is just like these HCs, another story to give credence to fakes.

John

--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character

-Shai Hulud


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Bobafettguy



Reged: 12/19/05
Loc: CA.
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: JohnA]
      #4345612 - 09/22/10 06:04 PM

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for the support. Thanks Arnaud - that means a lot.

--------------------
Marty - yub yub


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JohnA



Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Todd_Hudson]
      #4345686 - 09/22/10 07:39 PM

Todd_Hudson wrote:

pretty sure no 6-ups have been faked...those would be pretty easy to tell plus I don't believe he even owns any 6-ups..unless he bought them in past couple of years.




Actually, much like the fake 3PO Micro wax that Basement Bounty Hunters had, and Scott had for sale at CV, he also owns a Han SC, which is one of the known pieces that BBN also faked.

John

--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character

-Shai Hulud


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JosephY



Reged: 12/21/01
Loc: Providence RI
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: JohnA]
      #4345697 - 09/22/10 07:57 PM

JohnA wrote:
Todd_Hudson wrote:

pretty sure no 6-ups have been faked...those would be pretty easy to tell plus I don't believe he even owns any 6-ups..unless he bought them in past couple of years.




Actually, much like the fake 3PO Micro wax that Basement Bounty Hunters had, and Scott had for sale at CV, he also owns a Han SC, which is one of the known pieces that BBN also faked.

John



Rob A confirmed that that the 3po wax was a BBH piece at CV.
Scott also had some micro 4 ups at CV that I heard people looking at and speculating over the potential for them to not be real at CV. I didn't really look at them as Micro's not my bag.

J

--------------------
"You should be ashamed of yourself for supporting pirate Star Wars toys!"-TBFN
Wants:ANY Carded Polish, Mexican Amanaman,Loose Hungarian Vader
http://www.myspace.com/theusualsuspectsri


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Sems_Fir



Reged: 10/25/00
Loc: Connecticut
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Uncle_Gundy]
      #4345707 - 09/22/10 08:08 PM

Uncle_Gundy wrote:
Christian wrote:








I ended up with that Chithur hardcopy head on that list

Uncle Gundy



First, I must say I did meet Scott back at C3 and spoke to him briefly as he was leaving the convention to return home. We had a friendly conversation and I have no stake in what has transpired. I have never purchased an item from Scott. I did sell him the carded Chituhr I used to own. I only have a possible theory as to how the hardcopy head to the Chithur was created.

First, when I sold the carded Chituhr, one of the hardcopy legs fell off. I have the following image as proof:



Now, if you notice in the following image, not only is the leg seperated from the figure the bubble was also starting to detach from the cardback:



If you view the below image I saved on December 1, 2003 that Scott posted of the unproduced Ewok set he had going, notice the carded Chituhr in the background, the leg has been reattached.

Based on how the bubble was coming detached from the card it would have been difficult to reattach the leg without seperating the bubble even more from the card (in my opinion). The only theory I have is that the bubble was lifted and the leg reattached. At that point in time Scott could've (I'm not stating he did) made a copy of the hardcopy head. I'm not sure if the hardcopy head Derek purchased is the same size, but it's the only theory I have. He also owned a painted example (pictured) and I also have been notified that he once owned the multi colored example first shot of Chituhr I once owned. I'm not sure if he could've made a copy of the unpainted one. Anyway, just a theory. Does anyone know if he sold the carded Chituhr or if he still has it? Derek can you post a picture of the Chituhr hardcopy head you purchased from Scott?

Robert
www.behindthetoys.com


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JMiller



Reged: 05/19/00
Loc: north Dallas suburbs
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ThorOakenfelder]
      #4345734 - 09/22/10 08:41 PM

Wow, I really feel bad for all of those that were taken. Reading this thread just makes me feel sick, and I am not even a hardcopy collector.

The scope of this is staggering and it really is shocking that YET ANOTHER 'trusted longtime seller' has apparently turned out to be a scammer. That to me is unbelievable. Just knowing that a fellow collector befriended so many and built up trust only to absolutely rip them off is truly unbelievable in every sense of the word. .

I too will gladly chip in a few $$$ if this gets elevated legally. I have been a collector for over 15 years and it really saddens me to see my beloved hobby get tarnished in such a malicious way.

--------------------
Always looking for non-US cardbacks/MOC Death Star Droids!
My Feedback


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Jason_West



Reged: 03/08/02
Loc: Northern Virginia
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: JMiller]
      #4345777 - 09/22/10 09:40 PM

Here is a list of "prototypes" Scott sold in July 2004.

lando hand painted first shot. $200 (sold)
Lumat first shot with different color bag $150
Bib Fortuna first shot production colors $165 (sold)
Five unproduced e-woks.
2- chief chirpas
2-paploo
1- Bondo
Adm. Screed
Gaff
Hand painted DT Luke
Hand painted DT Ben
stormtrooper
jawa
Tusken Raider


Personally, I will deem all of them fake. I wanted to post this list, in case someone might have purchased any of these. Unfortunately, no pictures were posted.

--------------------
Jason West
Collection and Blog: MADBROWNZ


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GanjaFett



Reged: 12/27/08
Loc: Southern US
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: JMiller]
      #4345784 - 09/22/10 09:52 PM

Very unfortunate for everyone involved. I've only been ripped off on fake production accessories, so I can't even imagine what you guys are feelings.

--------------------
WTB Fett variants~US~Foreign~Bootleg

My FeedbacK


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Todd_Hudson



Reged: 02/15/03
Loc: Maui HI
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Jason_West]
      #4345820 - 09/22/10 10:38 PM

Jason_West wrote:
Here is a list of "prototypes" Scott sold in July 2004.

lando hand painted first shot. $200 (sold)
Lumat first shot with different color bag $150
Bib Fortuna first shot production colors $165 (sold)
Five unproduced e-woks.
2- chief chirpas
2-paploo
1- Bondo
Adm. Screed
Gaff
Hand painted DT Luke
Hand painted DT Ben
stormtrooper
jawa
Tusken Raider


Personally, I will deem all of them fake. I wanted to post this list, in case someone might have purchased any of these. Unfortunately, no pictures were posted.



Just reread Jason's post...

I do believe the Lando and Lumat First shots where real, they came from me...cant say for sure about anything else.
Todd

Edited by Todd_Hudson (09/22/10 10:59 PM)


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: 12p542]
      #4345881 - 09/22/10 11:39 PM

12p542 wrote:
Terrible news to everyone. Hopefully, things will be resolved for those affected.

Now a hypothetical question: wouldn't the following be some sort of a recipe for better fakes?

ronsalvatore wrote:

5) Kenner only painted nice, nearly flawless hardcopies. No painted hardcopy I've ever seen has air bubbles, visible casting flaws, etc.

6) Most of the "unfinished" and/or random hardcopy parts out there came from contacts associated with the old Kenner model shop. Many of them were Ed's contacts. The other sources mostly had complete (and usually painted) hardcopies. If someone offers you random or flaw-ridden parts that cannot be traced back to a good source, regard it as a red flag. The great majority of hardcopies that made it out of Kenner were complete.

7) Hardcopies always, always have better detail than production figures. It's finer, tighter, etc. If the details on something you're looking at are bulbous or muddy, question it.

8) A protomolded figure should not have air bubbles in it. It's injection-molded plastic!

9) As far as I know, legit protomolded parts have not turned up in any quantity. Protomolded figures are virtually always complete, and they're usually fully painted. If someone offers you a protomolded head or arm -- red flag.




That is, in the absence of provenance and legit sources.



There's always the danger that someone will use information to cheat collectors. I don't think that means you stop sharing the information.

The bottom line is that this will happen again. Hardcopies are pretty easy to fake. Whoever made this crop seems to have gotten better over time, and I suspect the nicer examples are the result of much trial and error.

Unfortunately, if you're going to collect this stuff, fakes are just something you're going to have to deal with.

That's why I think it's important to highlight context and provenance. People cannot just assume some guy who pops up out of the blue claiming to have legit sources and over 200 hardcopies is telling the truth. Everyone needs to understand how unlikely that is.

The Star Wars toy hobby is in a weird place in general. At some point around 12 years ago prototypes became really big. All the toy collectors came to desire waxes and hardcopies. And this trend has only been exacerbated by the fact that no one seems to collect carded figures or boxed toys anymore. Everyone is after prototypes. The esoteric fringe has become the mainstream.

I'm as responsible for popularizing this stuff as anyone else...but then I don't think it's something you can attach blame to. It just kind of is what it is.

But, sadly, there is not enough of this stuff to go around. There are very few legitimate hardcopies, and even fewer wax sculpts. Certainly not enough to satisfy the demand. The whole situation is a forger's dream.

So be on your toes. Ask questions, demand that you be able to send the piece to an expert for validation, etc. And don't buy into the BS regarding hobby jealousy.

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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Black_Falcon



Reged: 03/31/04
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ronsalvatore]
      #4345951 - 09/23/10 01:23 AM

Damn what a shame - what a big old mess this is

I looked a the cabinet of prototypes at C5 - and was very interested in one of Scott's pieces in particular.

My understanding of prototypes is fair, but very limited when compared to the experts in that side of the hobby.

Celebration had just about as good a gathering of prototype collectors as we are ever likely to see in one place.
It seemed like the perfect stage to sell such pieces, to review and compare their provenance and to have experts validate them?

It was good to see for myself, the piece that I was interested in at C5.
Thank you to those of you who offered me advise and pointers on features of such prototypes, when I asked you, I appreciate your help.

I had my own reservations about this piece from the outset (aside from obvious gob-smacking value).
An apparent reluctance to allow the piece other, more knowledgeable collectors to offer their opinions, just steered me away from this prototype.
Reading this thread is making me think that was a wise decision right now.

I hope that those of you who are out of pocket from any that are fakes, are recompensed.

- Graham

--------------------
webshots
Figure-wise the Jawa has a cloth cape that was made from someone's brown sock


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Uncle_Gundy



Reged: 10/12/01
Loc: Asia
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Sems_Fir]
      #4345964 - 09/23/10 01:44 AM

Here are the pics as requested earlier









Uncle Gundy

--------------------
In case of emergency, breakdance

Edited by Uncle_Gundy (09/23/10 01:45 AM)


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gus



Reged: 11/14/01
Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Youthberg]
      #4346009 - 09/23/10 03:17 AM

Youthberg wrote:
KevinA wrote:
A little bit OT maybe, but are any of these fake prototypes featured in Gus & Duncan's prototype book? I'm asking since I guess that it was printed before anyone knew about this mess?



A couple of items slipped in there. We were aware of the scandal as we were going to print so thankfully removed some dubious items at the last minute. Unfortunately we missed two carbalon heads (CCP and AT-ST Driver) and two accessories (Morag staff and Chituhr whip) that are most likely fraudulent. All in all, it could have been a lot worse!

Gus


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gus



Reged: 11/14/01
Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Arnaud]
      #4346013 - 09/23/10 03:42 AM

Arnaud wrote:
Now a few words to Scott McWilliams himself: if you read this, as I believe you are, this is serious fraud and the fraud will be proven. This means you will have to refund these people even if it takes your lifetime. Now the only question is, will you go to jail?



Well said, Arnaud. I think Scott would be a fool to do anything else besides refunding everyone as soon as he can. If you add up the amounts, it tops even some of the well-publicized collecting scams that have hit national/international news in the past several years. I'm sure folks in the criminal justice system will take interest once damage is totaled--it's too significant to ignore. People have gone to prison for much less.

Even the best case scenario for Scott will likely involve federal investigators interviewing victims, friends, families, colleagues, and business partners, and the end of his professional reputation. He'll probably never come clean, but ironically it would be in his best interests if he thought this through...

Gus


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Mattias_Rendahl



Reged: 09/07/04
Loc: S W E D E N
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Todd_Hudson]
      #4346030 - 09/23/10 04:55 AM

Todd_Hudson wrote:
Jason_West wrote:
Here is a list of "prototypes" Scott sold in July 2004.

lando hand painted first shot. $200 (sold)
Lumat first shot with different color bag $150
Bib Fortuna first shot production colors $165 (sold)
Five unproduced e-woks.
2- chief chirpas
2-paploo
1- Bondo
Adm. Screed
Gaff
Hand painted DT Luke
Hand painted DT Ben
stormtrooper
jawa
Tusken Raider


Personally, I will deem all of them fake. I wanted to post this list, in case someone might have purchased any of these. Unfortunately, no pictures were posted.



I do believe the Lando and Lumat First shots where real, they came from me...cant say for sure about anything else.
Todd



And I now own that Lumat. Most of the items on that sale list are first shots and genuine. Like have been stated before, Scott has owned many legit pieces as well, so need to get worried about everything. And first shots are much more difficult to fake, but after this mess I would of course tripple check everything that comes from him.

The DT Luke and Ben both came from Steve Denny in the first place, then Tom brokered them via CCC, Justin Kerns bought them, then Jason Zapp, then Scott and then some other people. The Luke was last seen in Gus & Duncan's prototype book

Mattias

--------------------
Looking for all kind of prototypes, especially for Luke Farmboy, Leia Hoth, Dengar and Endor related characters


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Mattias_Rendahl



Reged: 09/07/04
Loc: S W E D E N
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Mattias_Rendahl]
      #4346035 - 09/23/10 05:43 AM

Ok, part 2.

With a new fake in my hands (painted Leia Endor HC) I tried to get hold of Scott. But he had disappeared for good. He said it came from directly from a former Kenner employee, he had even said earlier he wasn't sure about the legitimacy. So I don't understand how in the world he thought I was going to be happy with it. A terrible cast and looked to be painted by a 5 year old. I spoke to him on the phone and wanted to swop it for one of his good HC's. He had many excuses all the time, I said I could drive over to his place and return it, send it with one of his friends, send it over with a town car etc. But he never answered and I asked him to confirm his addy, which he never did either. So I had to go back to Sweden with the fake Leia Endor. It would have been so easy to give me one of his legitimate pieces in Orlando, but no. 2 weeks after I returned home, he actually answered one of my emails (after I told him that people started to ask questions and I want to be done with this mess). So he actually sent me a new hard copy with rock solid provenance which was great, it was even a more expensive HC. But I still had a few carbalon heads (AT-ST Driver, CCP, Zuckuss) which I told him I needed a refund for as well. Those heads (incl Daniels AT-AT Commander) minus the difference for the new real HC leaves me to him owning me $800.

But like John said, it's not only the money. I have sold legitimite pieces to fund stuff from Scott. I am 'fortunate' to have recieved most of my money back, but it's still a terrible situation.

What really puzzles me is why Scott had 2 unpainted hard copies of the same figure. One was so bad and looked completely different that even a proto newbie would see there was something fishy if the two were compared. And since Scott had both of them at the same time in his collection, I don't get that he wouldn't see there was something wrong with one of them. If Scott was duped, he has been really blind and naive.

Scott, I gave you a chance to come clear before this story went public. But you choose not to. I don't care about your stories etc anymore. I dont care if you have been duped. I only care about people will be getting their money back and will gladly spend more money on legal actions than you already owe me.

And oh, Scott bragged about casting resin all night during CV to fix a statue. Interesting that he told be he 1) was casting 2) had resin at home to be able to do so.

Mattias

PS. Thanks to Gus and Duncan who was the first to look at the Lumats first hand, and thanks to that we could remove them for the book. I just regret I didn't ask you guys to look at the 'carbalon' heads while you were here.

PSS. I've mentioned Jordan and HH in my posts, I just wanted to clearify that he had nothing to do with my HC dealings with Scott. He only had specific pieces in his booth (which I wanted instead of my fake items I got directly from Scott)


--------------------
Looking for all kind of prototypes, especially for Luke Farmboy, Leia Hoth, Dengar and Endor related characters

Edited by Mattias_Rendahl (09/23/10 08:03 AM)


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HollywoodHeroes



Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Mattias_Rendahl]
      #4346054 - 09/23/10 06:58 AM

Mattias_Rendahl wrote:
Ok, part 2.


PSS. I've mentioned Jordan and HH in my posts, I just wanted to clearify that he had nothing to do with my HC dealings with Scott. He only had a few legitimate pieces in his booth (which I wanted instead of my fake items I got directly from Scott)



Mattias,

Thanks for your kind words, and I appreciate it. You have been wonderful to work with post-CV.

Just curious, I hope you mean Jordan had "specific" legitimate pieces in his booth....

The way this reads, it sounds like the entire cabinet was filled with junk and you wanted the only few items that were deemed real. I remember you wanted specific characters to complete your deal with Scott.

The only item we removed from the case the second day was the Leia Bespin, which was a piece I was unable to provide information for, to collectors.

Hope this helps!

All the best-
Jordan

--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com


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sisefromm



Reged: 06/08/04
Loc: germany - cologne
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: JohnA]
      #4346066 - 09/23/10 07:51 AM

all my compassion goes to all concerned.
sadly days for the whole comunity and such a cool hobby.

so maybe the AFA system is something we should use before
selling something... it brings maybe a better price graded and the buyer knows it is legit...

ahhh so sorry to hear all this...
and great to hear Arnaud will help in a point.

--------------------
WTB: vader: proofs, errors/miscards,
meccano 12/21 moc, protos.
german related: displays, moc´s, multipack 3 packs from parker.


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Uncle_Gundy]
      #4346067 - 09/23/10 07:58 AM

Uncle_Gundy wrote:
Here are the pics as requested earlier









Uncle Gundy



That doesn't look too bad, honestly. You should send it to Chris and have him take a look at it, though.

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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Mattias_Rendahl



Reged: 09/07/04
Loc: S W E D E N
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ronsalvatore]
      #4346070 - 09/23/10 08:04 AM

Ah, sorry about that, Jordan. I've changed the post

Mattias

--------------------
Looking for all kind of prototypes, especially for Luke Farmboy, Leia Hoth, Dengar and Endor related characters


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acedecade75



Reged: 07/06/02
Loc: USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: JohnA]
      #4346091 - 09/23/10 08:40 AM

It's interesting to see hear about Scott's carded Chituhr. He tried to sell me some of his carded EWOKS awhile back in addition to the other pieces I got from him. Since this situation has come to light, I've been wonderind if they were authentic or not.

Another interesting thing is that he once mentioned to me that he knew of a second carded Morag that was not known in "the collecting circle".

On another note, did anyone besides me get an Admiral Screed from him? It sounds like he very well may have had an authentic one at some point. However, it looks like he sold me a bad one. I wonder if he might still have a real Screed.


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: acedecade75]
      #4346116 - 09/23/10 09:36 AM

acedecade75 wrote:
It's interesting to see hear about Scott's carded Chituhr. He tried to sell me some of his carded EWOKS awhile back in addition to the other pieces I got from him. Since this situation has come to light, I've been wonderind if they were authentic or not.

Another interesting thing is that he once mentioned to me that he knew of a second carded Morag that was not known in "the collecting circle".

On another note, did anyone besides me get an Admiral Screed from him? It sounds like he very well may have had an authentic one at some point. However, it looks like he sold me a bad one. I wonder if he might still have a real Screed.



My sense is that the carded Droids and Ewoks he has/had are probably fine. But someone more knowledgeable about Droids/Ewoks should respond.

However, based on Robert's info about the Chituhr, I'd want to make sure that the figure that is currently under that bubble (which has obviously been lifted at some point) is good. It's possible that the legit hardcopy was removed from the bubble, copied, and replaced with a fake. Worth investigating...

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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Bill_McBride



Reged: 05/01/01
Loc: Washington DC
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ronsalvatore]
      #4346176 - 09/23/10 10:40 AM

ronsalvatore wrote:

The Star Wars toy hobby is in a weird place in general. At some point around 12 years ago prototypes became really big. All the toy collectors came to desire waxes and hardcopies. And this trend has only been exacerbated by the fact that no one seems to collect carded figures or boxed toys anymore. Everyone is after prototypes. The esoteric fringe has become the mainstream.
I'm as responsible for popularizing this stuff as anyone else...but then I don't think it's something you can attach blame to. It just kind of is what it is.
So be on your toes. Ask questions, demand that you be able to send the piece to an expert for validation, etc. And don't buy into the BS regarding hobby jealousy.



I agree with Ron. I think people have access to, and get to see some of the rarest pieces in the hobby here and on the 'net. I think the actual rarity factor is lost in the translation. (ie. The Headman Uzay)

I don't think there is any "blame" to be had. Preproduction/Prototype material is highly desired in every collecting field I can think of. From cars, to pieces of original concept art, watches, guns, and everything in between. People collect preproduction material because 1) it's rare, and hard to find, and 2) you have a genuine passion for what you collect, and want a piece of the history behind it. Sadly, this is also the reason a lot of these pieces are subject to forgeries and fraud.

I really hate to say this, but when events like this happen we come out of it better than when we started. We know more, we are certainly more cautious, and as painful as it is; it is a very big lesson to be learned.

I did not personally deal with Scott for the reasons a lot of the other guys have pointed out. However, I will gladly join Arnaud and contribute to any legal fund that might be necessary. I am also truly sorry for anyone involved.

Bill

~ If anyone has any suspect Vader pieces, please feel free to contact me here, or via email. The examples in my collection trace directly back to The Earth. There are certain features that these pieces share that can be matched to each other, so once you know what to look for it's fairly easy to spot.

--------------------
Buying Rare and Unusual Darth Vader Items; Vintage and New
Check out The Darth Vader Toy Museum at: www.sithtoys.com


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Darkside_Apprentice



Reged: 01/23/02
Loc: Far East
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ronsalvatore]
      #4346179 - 09/23/10 10:43 AM

And the hits keep on coming I picked up the painted bespin guard with the broken hand. I havent had the heart to take it out to give it a good once over yet. WOuld be nice if someone has history on the piece beyond Scott but Im not holding my breath. Jeez who would go out of the way to do a fake with a broken hand. and I though gave it some authenticity

--------------------
Always looking for:
vintage BESpin Security Guard White items esp. proofs/cromalins
potf2 Lando skiff and jawa prototypes.


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tapuvae



Reged: 12/20/03
Loc: us
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Darkside_Apprentice]
      #4346217 - 09/23/10 11:24 AM

Darkside_Apprentice wrote:
And the hits keep on coming I picked up the painted bespin guard with the broken hand. I havent had the heart to take it out to give it a good once over yet. WOuld be nice if someone has history on the piece beyond Scott but Im not holding my breath. Jeez who would go out of the way to do a fake with a broken hand. and I though gave it some authenticity



You've answered your own question there. Too perfect is a red flag.


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Broc



Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Darkside_Apprentice]
      #4346237 - 09/23/10 11:45 AM

Darkside_Apprentice wrote:
And the hits keep on coming I picked up the painted bespin guard with the broken hand. I havent had the heart to take it out to give it a good once over yet. WOuld be nice if someone has history on the piece beyond Scott but Im not holding my breath. Jeez who would go out of the way to do a fake with a broken hand. and I though gave it some authenticity



Greg, you may actually be one of the lucky ones. That piece traces back to a find of hardcopies and protomolds that Jordan sold at C3. I even have a pic of that find and the Black Bespin Guard with missing hand is present. To my knowledge, all of those pieces have been deemed fine. They traced back to a Kenner source through Jordan and had nothing to do with Scott as best I know.

Jordan (or anyone else), please correct me if I'm wrong.

--------------------
Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Darkside_Apprentice]
      #4346251 - 09/23/10 11:55 AM

Darkside_Apprentice wrote:
And the hits keep on coming I picked up the painted bespin guard with the broken hand. I havent had the heart to take it out to give it a good once over yet. WOuld be nice if someone has history on the piece beyond Scott but Im not holding my breath. Jeez who would go out of the way to do a fake with a broken hand. and I though gave it some authenticity



Take some good photos and/or send it to Chris G. It isn't necessarily fake. Maybe you got lucky.

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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Shane TurgeonAdministrator



Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: Edmonton, Alberta
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Bill_McBride]
      #4346259 - 09/23/10 12:01 PM

Bill_McBride wrote:

I did not personally deal with Scott for the reasons a lot of the other guys have pointed out. However, I will gladly join Arnaud and contribute to any legal fund that might be necessary. I am also truly sorry for anyone involved.




I had m own reasons for never dealing with Scott, and i'm glad i went with my gut on it all, but count me in for being willing to contribute some money towards the costs of a lawsuit or criminal investigation.

Ron, has the poster fraud case gone to court yet? It would be interesting to know the outcome of that as it shares many similarities with this fraud in terms of volume, dollar amounts and the number of well-known and knowledgeable collectors who were defrauded.

--------------------
Shane Turgeon
Author: The Force in the Flesh
www.theforceintheflesh.com
www.tattoosandtoys.com


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HollywoodHeroes



Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ronsalvatore]
      #4346260 - 09/23/10 12:01 PM


Broc-

I no longer have that photo, but give you permission to post it. It may help. That huge find was one of two I did that year. In fact, Bill and Tracey went and picked it up for me because it was simply too much to carry back on the plane.

Jordan

--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com


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Broc



Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: HollywoodHeroes]
      #4346317 - 09/23/10 01:02 PM

HollywoodHeroes wrote:

Broc-

I no longer have that photo, but give you permission to post it. It may help. That huge find was one of two I did that year. In fact, Bill and Tracey went and picked it up for me because it was simply too much to carry back on the plane.

Jordan



Thanks for the clarification Jordan and permission to post the pic. That said, I'm afraid if I post it here it will only confuse people about what pieces are real and which ones are fake. Since all of the other pics in this thread are to show the fakes, I would hate to cause more problems and confusion.

That's good to know about Bill and Tracey going to pick it up. Did you mean they picked it up directly from the Kenner source or from an office of yours or something?

--------------------
Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)


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Bill_Wills



Reged: 10/31/01
Loc: Monroe, OH
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Broc]
      #4346330 - 09/23/10 01:14 PM

Broc wrote:

Thanks for the clarification Jordan and permission to post the pic. That said, I'm afraid if I post it here it will only confuse people about what pieces are real and which ones are fake. Since all of the other pics in this thread are to show the fakes, I would hate to cause more problems and confusion.

That's good to know about Bill and Tracey going to pick it up. Did you mean they picked it up directly from the Kenner source or from an office of yours or something?



Broc - we actually went to the Kenner employee's home to pick it up. In fact, somewhere I have a pic of that whole collection I took as a group. If I can find it, I'll post it so everyone can see.


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Broc



Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Bill_Wills]
      #4346341 - 09/23/10 01:19 PM

Bill_Wills wrote:
Broc wrote:

Thanks for the clarification Jordan and permission to post the pic. That said, I'm afraid if I post it here it will only confuse people about what pieces are real and which ones are fake. Since all of the other pics in this thread are to show the fakes, I would hate to cause more problems and confusion.

That's good to know about Bill and Tracey going to pick it up. Did you mean they picked it up directly from the Kenner source or from an office of yours or something?



Broc - we actually went to the Kenner employee's home to pick it up. In fact, somewhere I have a pic of that whole collection I took as a group. If I can find it, I'll post it so everyone can see.



Thanks for the info Bill. It's much appreciated. It would be interesting to see the pic of the whole collection. Thanks in advance.

--------------------
Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)


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Bill_Wills



Reged: 10/31/01
Loc: Monroe, OH
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Broc]
      #4346342 - 09/23/10 01:21 PM

Here's the photo.



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JohnA



Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: acedecade75]
      #4346345 - 09/23/10 01:23 PM

acedecade75 wrote:

On another note, did anyone besides me get an Admiral Screed from him? It sounds like he very well may have had an authentic one at some point. However, it looks like he sold me a bad one. I wonder if he might still have a real Screed.



You, another guy from RS who can speak up if he wants but pics have been seen, I had an unpainted head and torso and another guy has a complete painted one that he said he did not buy from Scott BUT it shares the same bloated features and he's looking into the history to find out if who he purchased it from purchased from Scott. That's a LOT of Screeds.

John

--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character

-Shai Hulud


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KevinA



Reged: 08/29/05
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Bill_Wills]
      #4346348 - 09/23/10 01:27 PM

Bill_Wills wrote:






Cool, there is the 4-LOM I am after next. Kinda cool to find out its origins, I hadn't heard this story before. That pic is amazing....if any knows his whereabouts,PM please!


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Bill_Wills



Reged: 10/31/01
Loc: Monroe, OH
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Darkside_Apprentice]
      #4346350 - 09/23/10 01:27 PM

Darkside_Apprentice wrote:
And the hits keep on coming I picked up the painted bespin guard with the broken hand. I havent had the heart to take it out to give it a good once over yet. WOuld be nice if someone has history on the piece beyond Scott but Im not holding my breath. Jeez who would go out of the way to do a fake with a broken hand. and I though gave it some authenticity



Is it the one in the picture I posted? If so, you're in luck because it's 100% authentic.


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Sems_Fir



Reged: 10/25/00
Loc: Connecticut
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: acedecade75]
      #4346351 - 09/23/10 01:28 PM

acedecade75 wrote:
It's interesting to see hear about Scott's carded Chituhr. He tried to sell me some of his carded EWOKS awhile back in addition to the other pieces I got from him. Since this situation has come to light, I've been wonderind if they were authentic or not.

Another interesting thing is that he once mentioned to me that he knew of a second carded Morag that was not known in "the collecting circle".

On another note, did anyone besides me get an Admiral Screed from him? It sounds like he very well may have had an authentic one at some point. However, it looks like he sold me a bad one. I wonder if he might still have a real Screed.




I can confirm that there is a second carded Morag. Tom Derby had it for sale. I will post a pic later.

Robert


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Broc



Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Bill_Wills]
      #4346353 - 09/23/10 01:31 PM

Thanks for posting the pic, Bill. That is the same pic I have from that find. I do believe the Black Bespin Guard Greg is talking about is indeed the one in that pic.

--------------------
Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)


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HollywoodHeroes



Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Broc]
      #4346368 - 09/23/10 01:48 PM


KevinA-

That 4-LOM is already in a collection... locked up tighter than Lindsay Lohan's grip on a bag of crack. There is just no prying it away.

Feel safe in knowing its gone to a good home.

Jordan

--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com


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KevinA



Reged: 08/29/05
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: HollywoodHeroes]
      #4346393 - 09/23/10 02:09 PM

haha, thats a tight grip. Thanks Jordan. My wife and my bank account thank whoever has this locked up as well!

EDIT -

Jeez I actually did talk to the owner about this already and how it isn't going anywhere. I just forgot - too many nights of headbutts and Crown Royal!

Edited by KevinA (09/23/10 03:11 PM)


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Jason_West



Reged: 03/08/02
Loc: Northern Virginia
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Mattias_Rendahl]
      #4346494 - 09/23/10 03:34 PM

Mattias_Rendahl wrote:
Todd_Hudson wrote:
Jason_West wrote:
Here is a list of "prototypes" Scott sold in July 2004.

lando hand painted first shot. $200 (sold)
Lumat first shot with different color bag $150
Bib Fortuna first shot production colors $165 (sold)
Five unproduced e-woks.
2- chief chirpas
2-paploo
1- Bondo
Adm. Screed
Gaff
Hand painted DT Luke
Hand painted DT Ben
stormtrooper
jawa
Tusken Raider


Personally, I will deem all of them fake. I wanted to post this list, in case someone might have purchased any of these. Unfortunately, no pictures were posted.



I do believe the Lando and Lumat First shots where real, they came from me...cant say for sure about anything else.
Todd



And I now own that Lumat. Most of the items on that sale list are first shots and genuine. Like have been stated before, Scott has owned many legit pieces as well, so need to get worried about everything. And first shots are much more difficult to fake, but after this mess I would of course tripple check everything that comes from him.

The DT Luke and Ben both came from Steve Denny in the first place, then Tom brokered them via CCC, Justin Kerns bought them, then Jason Zapp, then Scott and then some other people. The Luke was last seen in Gus & Duncan's prototype book

Mattias



Mattias and Todd,

Thank you for the information. I will single out the Jawa then.

Just curious, has anyone seen pictures of the jawa from this sale?

--------------------
Jason West
Collection and Blog: MADBROWNZ


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Bill_Wills]
      #4346546 - 09/23/10 04:14 PM

Bill_Wills wrote:
Broc wrote:

Thanks for the clarification Jordan and permission to post the pic. That said, I'm afraid if I post it here it will only confuse people about what pieces are real and which ones are fake. Since all of the other pics in this thread are to show the fakes, I would hate to cause more problems and confusion.

That's good to know about Bill and Tracey going to pick it up. Did you mean they picked it up directly from the Kenner source or from an office of yours or something?



Broc - we actually went to the Kenner employee's home to pick it up. In fact, somewhere I have a pic of that whole collection I took as a group. If I can find it, I'll post it so everyone can see.



This Hollywood Heroes find (which Bill and Tracey picked up) is another one to add to my earlier list of legit sources.

Hollywood Heroes has had at least a couple of good HC finds. You should be able to use old photos of those finds to help track legit pieces that are out there.

Edited by ronsalvatore (09/23/10 06:07 PM)


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HollywoodHeroes



Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ronsalvatore]
      #4346550 - 09/23/10 04:22 PM

Ron-

Just to clarify your comments and information, this was NOT a Bill/Tracey find. This was 100% a Jordan/Hollywood Heroes deal.

I think its important to get the specifics correct when dealing with this issue. More to the point, it should be noted that Hollywood Heroes has been a major source of the legit Hardcopies found over the past years.

Hope this helps-
Jordan

--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com

Edited by HollywoodHeroes (09/23/10 04:53 PM)


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Shane Turgeon]
      #4346556 - 09/23/10 04:27 PM

Shane Turgeon wrote:
Bill_McBride wrote:

I did not personally deal with Scott for the reasons a lot of the other guys have pointed out. However, I will gladly join Arnaud and contribute to any legal fund that might be necessary. I am also truly sorry for anyone involved.




I had m own reasons for never dealing with Scott, and i'm glad i went with my gut on it all, but count me in for being willing to contribute some money towards the costs of a lawsuit or criminal investigation.

Ron, has the poster fraud case gone to court yet? It would be interesting to know the outcome of that as it shares many similarities with this fraud in terms of volume, dollar amounts and the number of well-known and knowledgeable collectors who were defrauded.



Here's a link to some info:

Link

Looks like there hasn't been much action. One claim has been stayed because the alleged mastermind filed for bankruptcy.

The poster fraud is similar in some respects, but it supposedly involved over 1 million...so a lot more money was at stake.

Also, I think it was a lot easier to "prove" that Haggard was involved in making those frauds. They identified the restorer who collaborated with him, and the evidence indicating fakery was irrefutable: a fake poster glued over another poster. I'm not sure this is as open-and-closed as that.

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: HollywoodHeroes]
      #4346625 - 09/23/10 05:21 PM

HollywoodHeroes wrote:
Ron-

Just to clarify your comments and information, this was NOT a Bill/Tracey find. This was 100% a Jordan/Hollywood Heroes deal.

I think its important to get the specifics correct when dealing with this issue. More to the point, it should be noted that Hollywood Heroes has been a major source of the legit Hardcopies found over the past years.

Hope this helps-
Jordan



Jordan,

Fair enough.

I'll even give you a pass and not make too much of the fact that you were helping Scott to sell his dodgy stuff.

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ronsalvatore]
      #4346738 - 09/23/10 07:01 PM

Here's a good round-up of info on the recent poster fraud that Shane was referring to. Similar in some respects to this situation.

http://www.originalprop.com/blog/2009/09/13/charges-of-fraud-rock-the-collectible-movie-poster-market-and-hobby/

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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Sems_Fir



Reged: 10/25/00
Loc: Connecticut
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Sems_Fir]
      #4346749 - 09/23/10 07:13 PM

Here's a couple of photos for this thread.

First, this is the image of the carded Morag Tom Derby sent to me in December of 2000. I was thinking of purchasing it as well. If memory serves me the price was the same as the Chituhr and was from Steve Denny.



The second and third images are similar to the one Bill posted earlier from the find:





Robert
www.behindthetoys.com

Edited by Sems_Fir (09/23/10 07:15 PM)


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HollywoodHeroes



Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ronsalvatore]
      #4346751 - 09/23/10 07:18 PM

Ron-

I'll address this right now and get it out in the open... this is a very strong accusation that you have made and it's simply untrue. I think you have taken a big leap saying something like this.

Inside the RS forums, many know of our somewhat rocky and shall I say "complicated" history. So, they would probably brush this off as your drudging up the past, and not think much of it.

However, there are many new readers here and new collectors who might not know of our past, and may read more into this.. and thereby think that I am somehow affiliated with selling these questionable hardcopies.

Scott took space at my booth. He was there and worked the show with collectors. I answered questions when I could. When something was not within the realm of my knowledge.. I told them so and pointed them to Scott. End of story. Furthermore, I find it even more interesting that you comment on my sales when you were not even at my booth at CV.

I would strongly suggest that you seriously rethink your accusations and keep me out of any of these hardcopy sales. This is YOUR free pass Ron... any further comments like this would be grounds for liable.

Congratulations... in one post you have just brought down the integrity of the thread. Seriously, I think you look foolish for even making a comment like this.

I have been more than honest and forthright to all collectors who have contacted me, and continue to work with many people behind the scenes. I have answered phone calls, returned E-mails, and checked dates and notes... all in the good interest of the hobby.

If anyone has any questions, they can contact me via E-mail.

Best-
Jordan

--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com

Edited by HollywoodHeroes (09/23/10 07:22 PM)


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: HollywoodHeroes]
      #4346765 - 09/23/10 07:40 PM

HollywoodHeroes wrote:
Ron-

I'll address this right now and get it out in the open... this is a very strong accusation that you have made and it's simply untrue. I think you have taken a big leap saying something like this.

Inside the RS forums, many know of our somewhat rocky and shall I say "complicated" history. So, they would probably brush this off as your drudging up the past, and not think much of it.

However, there are many new readers here and new collectors who might not know of our past, and may read more into this.. and thereby think that I am somehow affiliated with selling these questionable hardcopies.

Scott took space at my booth. He was there and worked the show with collectors. I answered questions when I could. When something was not within the realm of my knowledge.. I told them so and pointed them to Scott. End of story. Furthermore, I find it even more interesting that you comment on my sales when you were not even at my booth at CV.

I would strongly suggest that you seriously rethink your accusations and keep me out of any of these hardcopy sales. This is YOUR free pass Ron... any further comments like this would be grounds for liable.

Congratulations... in one post you have just brought down the integrity of the thread. Seriously, I think you look foolish for even making a comment like this.

I have been more than honest and forthright to all collectors who have contacted me, and continue to work with many people behind the scenes. I have answered phone calls, returned E-mails, and checked dates and notes... all in the good interest of the hobby.

If anyone has any questions, they can contact me via E-mail.

Best-
Jordan



I think everyone at CV saw that he had stuff at your booth, Jordan. It was front and center.

Are you alleging that I'm lying about this?

I'll take you at your word that you had no involvement beyond presenting his stuff in your display case.

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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Bill_McBride



Reged: 05/01/01
Loc: Washington DC
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: tapuvae]
      #4346774 - 09/23/10 07:53 PM

tapuvae wrote:
Darkside_Apprentice wrote:
And the hits keep on coming I picked up the painted bespin guard with the broken hand. I havent had the heart to take it out to give it a good once over yet. WOuld be nice if someone has history on the piece beyond Scott but Im not holding my breath. Jeez who would go out of the way to do a fake with a broken hand. and I though gave it some authenticity



You've answered your own question there. Too perfect is a red flag.



Actually, the opposite is true. Authentic HC's main feature is the level of detail or "sharpness". If there was an imperfection in the original part, it would simply be discarded, or filled in (as with some 4-ups). Even the single limbs and various parts I have seen are, without exception, razor sharp in detail.

I also feel for you with a questionable piece such as the BG. It came from a now "suspect" source, and I can certainly appreciate the emotion that goes behind that. I would really encourage everyone to use the resources which are being openly provided to you. Specifically, Chris and Tom are working on these first hand. You can also post pics here, and as you can see you will get feedback.

I know this situation is a Godzilla-sized PITA, but the approach to resolving this should be as detailed, and thorough as possible. So instead of people rushing to conclusions, or generalizations, let's keep our head(s) on.
There are also people here which are more than happy to give any assistance that someone would require, or have the resources to at least point them in the right direction.

Bill

--------------------
Buying Rare and Unusual Darth Vader Items; Vintage and New
Check out The Darth Vader Toy Museum at: www.sithtoys.com


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jaymassive619



Reged: 04/10/08
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Mattias_Rendahl]
      #4346778 - 09/23/10 07:58 PM

I have to say this thread has been deeply distressing and i genuinely hope everyone can pull together on this and make sure that this guy is held accountable for this terrible scam

I wanted to post earlier but I guess I just could find the words to express my sadness for all the guys’ effected many of whom have helped me on numerous occasions as well as folk I consider friends and also some of the hobbies biggest contributors who I have nothing but the highest respect for.

I also want to note that people like JohnA who are shouldering the cost for items they sold on unwittingly deserve the high respect and also guys like Arnuad offering to chip into legal costs even though he wasn’t effected is a testament to them. I genuinely feel that the strong sense of community vintage star wars collectors have will ultimately help people pull through this terrible mess.

To just respond to Jordan I want to start by apologising if I make incorrect assumptions. (If I have I will happily amend my post to reflect confirm facts)

Can I just clarify Jordan did Scott sell some of these fakes through Hollywood Heroes at C5 again I may be off base but weren’t some of them listed via the HH website prior to the event and that you were acting in effect as a broker on some of these items i.e. taking a percent of the sales for advertising them and the HH Brand effectively adding legitimacy / security to the products on offer?

If the above is true (again I’m only going off what I have read and seen so far and also speaking with collectors who attended C5) then surely HH would have a moral responsibility to refund customers affected and then chase Scott to recoup the costs?

In effect it’s similar to what JohnA and others have done (although they certainly didn’t have to in their cases). Accountings for the fact that if these items were sold through / brokered by your business wouldn’t that mean this is the only fair course of action?

Again I will add if I have got things mixed up or incorrect I apologise and will certainly amend this post if required.

Cheers Jay

--------------------
Want to know about Weapon and Accessory Variants? Have you tried The Imperial Gunnery



Edited by jaymassive619 (09/23/10 08:02 PM)


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HollywoodHeroes



Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ronsalvatore]
      #4346779 - 09/23/10 07:59 PM

Yes Ron-

A questionable piece was removed the second day when it was brought to me attention by another collector. This was done first thing in the morning.

My involvement was minimal. I purchased a case specifically for Scott to display his items. Scott set them in the case at at the beginning of the show, and cleared them at the end of the day.

I did not look closely at any of the items, because I had no reason to doubt them at the show. When I personally handled items, it was little more than taking them out of the case and presenting them to collectors.

Most importantly, when someone asked questions such as "Jordan, whats the story with that item," or "Hey, can you tell me what that is exactly?" I referred them to Scott. I remember saying that I sounded like a broken record player stating the same thing over and over... "talk to Scott, you would have to ask Scott that question."

Pieces were looked at carefully by collectors. At times, up to three different people would look at the same item. All were satisfied with what they were purchasing... all seemed content and happy.

In short: Hollywood Heroes offered retail space to a client. For the record... FOUR additional collectors/Kenner clients showcased their items at the Hollywood Heroes booth. There were items from the current 12" line and micro lines, as well as vintage plush and prototype items.

I think its unfair saying that by allowing someone retail space to sell their wares, that I knowingly and willfully had involvement in the selling of these hardcopies.

One final note... to the best of my knowledge (and I am sure that I would have heard differently by now) everyone was happy with their purchases from the Hollywood Heroes booth. I know people saw Scott privately off the show floor.. but that is a different deal.

I hope this clears up any confusion for anyone. If there are any collectors who need me or wish to contact me please do so : jordan@hollywoodheroes.com

Thanks so much
Jordan

--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com


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HollywoodHeroes



Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: HollywoodHeroes]
      #4346786 - 09/23/10 08:03 PM



Hi Jay-

Thanks for your questions, I would love to answer them.

No. To the best of my knowledge no dubious hardcopies were sold at CV. If they were I:

A. Would have heard about them by now.
b. Would have granted full refunds.

If memory serves me, there were only a few hardcopies showcased in the glass booth: Weequay, Wicket, Tie Pilot, Bald Emperor, Lando

I think that's it.

Hollywood Heroes brokered a Luke Bespin about 5 years ago for another collector. It has been traced back to Scott and we are granting a full refund, no questions asked.

Hope this helps!

All the best-
Jordan

--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com


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jaymassive619



Reged: 04/10/08
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: HollywoodHeroes]
      #4346805 - 09/23/10 08:14 PM

HollywoodHeroes wrote:


Hi Jay-

Thanks for your questions, I would love to answer them.

No. To the best of my knowledge no dubious hardcopies were sold at CV. If they were I:

A. Would have heard about them by now.
b. Would have granted full refunds.

If memory serves me, there were only a few hardcopies showcased in the glass booth: Weequay, Wicket, Tie Pilot, Bald Emperor, Lando

I think that's it.

Hollywood Heroes brokered a Luke Bespin about 5 years ago for another collector. It has been traced back to Scott and we are granting a full refund, no questions asked.

Hope this helps!

All the best-
Jordan




Thanks Jordan for the reply buddy many will agree with something as explosive as this rumor mills / discussions etc can end up in overdrive at times which is why i felt is was best to ask / clarify these points directly

Its good to hear that if anyone was effected with items that you brokered then Hollywood Heroes adopts a no questions asked refund policy and the fact you put right a deal that you brokered 5 years ago is testement to the sounds principles that Hollywood Heroes stands for

Cheers Jay

--------------------
Want to know about Weapon and Accessory Variants? Have you tried The Imperial Gunnery



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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: HollywoodHeroes]
      #4346813 - 09/23/10 08:25 PM

HollywoodHeroes wrote:
Yes Ron-

A questionable piece was removed the second day when it was brought to me attention by another collector. This was done first thing in the morning.

My involvement was minimal. I purchased a case specifically for Scott to display his items. Scott set them in the case at at the beginning of the show, and cleared them at the end of the day.

I did not look closely at any of the items, because I had no reason to doubt them at the show. When I personally handled items, it was little more than taking them out of the case and presenting them to collectors.

Most importantly, when someone asked questions such as "Jordan, whats the story with that item," or "Hey, can you tell me what that is exactly?" I referred them to Scott. I remember saying that I sounded like a broken record player stating the same thing over and over... "talk to Scott, you would have to ask Scott that question."

Pieces were looked at carefully by collectors. At times, up to three different people would look at the same item. All were satisfied with what they were purchasing... all seemed content and happy.

In short: Hollywood Heroes offered retail space to a client. For the record... FOUR additional collectors/Kenner clients showcased their items at the Hollywood Heroes booth. There were items from the current 12" line and micro lines, as well as vintage plush and prototype items.

I think its unfair saying that by allowing someone retail space to sell their wares, that I knowingly and willfully had involvement in the selling of these hardcopies.

One final note... to the best of my knowledge (and I am sure that I would have heard differently by now) everyone was happy with their purchases from the Hollywood Heroes booth. I know people saw Scott privately off the show floor.. but that is a different deal.

I hope this clears up any confusion for anyone. If there are any collectors who need me or wish to contact me please do so : jordan@hollywoodheroes.com

Thanks so much
Jordan



Like I said. I'll take you at your word. I legitimately don't think you were involved at all in the forgery aspects of this. I think it's more likely you got suckered along with everyone else.

But I think you're doing yourself a disservice as a known dealer when you disassociate yourself from the clients you have represented and the items those clients have offered for sale via your services -- even if those services involved nothing more than the provision of display real estate.

Surely you vet the clients and products you represent, right? I think that's what your customers assume. I also assume that you, your clients and your customers attach some kind of significance to the HH brand.

I'm really not trying to give you a hard time (okay, I am a little bit); I'm mostly trying to point out that your "no involvement" position doesn't square with your rep as a well-known dealer. I, for one, expect well-known dealers to stand up for their clients, their services and their products.

Anyway, I do hope that you'll go out of your way to set the record straight with anyone who saw that stuff at your booth or on your site and was persuaded to believe it was legit. It might be a good idea to point those individuals to this thread so they can get brushed up.

I also trust that if you're still in contact with Scott and/or are in possession of some of his stuff, you'll do everything you can to make things right.

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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tapuvae



Reged: 12/20/03
Loc: us
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Bill_McBride]
      #4346815 - 09/23/10 08:27 PM

Bill_McBride wrote:
tapuvae wrote:
Darkside_Apprentice wrote:
And the hits keep on coming I picked up the painted bespin guard with the broken hand. I havent had the heart to take it out to give it a good once over yet. WOuld be nice if someone has history on the piece beyond Scott but Im not holding my breath. Jeez who would go out of the way to do a fake with a broken hand. and I though gave it some authenticity



You've answered your own question there. Too perfect is a red flag.



Actually, the opposite is true. Authentic HC's main feature is the level of detail or "sharpness". If there was an imperfection in the original part, it would simply be discarded, or filled in (as with some 4-ups). Even the single limbs and various parts I have seen are, without exception, razor sharp in detail.

I also feel for you with a questionable piece such as the BG. It came from a now "suspect" source, and I can certainly appreciate the emotion that goes behind that. I would really encourage everyone to use the resources which are being openly provided to you. Specifically, Chris and Tom are working on these first hand. You can also post pics here, and as you can see you will get feedback.

I know this situation is a Godzilla-sized PITA, but the approach to resolving this should be as detailed, and thorough as possible. So instead of people rushing to conclusions, or generalizations, let's keep our head(s) on.
There are also people here which are more than happy to give any assistance that someone would require, or have the resources to at least point them in the right direction.

Bill



For the sake of clarity I was referring to the condition of an item not its quality. The missing hand, that is something that makes for a good story if you are trying to sell something fake. Its like foxing a piece or sun striking it on purpose, add a little vinegar, etc. Anyway, in this case it looks like the missing hand is good.

Edited by tapuvae (09/23/10 08:32 PM)


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Jetson



Reged: 09/09/09
Loc: Saratoga Springs, NY
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Michael_Ritter]
      #4346818 - 09/23/10 08:30 PM

Michael_Ritter wrote:
I am gald to see this finally come to light. I had heard rumblings of this a while before CV and saw confirmation at CV. I really do feel bad for all the victims in this and hope this can be settled postively (though I doubt it unfortunately). Perhaps it might be worthwhile to contact a lawyer and/or law enforcement and see if there is any position that can be taken here. And since many of these 'prototypes' crossed state lines I assume by USPS, was there any mail fraud committed. Where are our lawyers in training, Tommy and Isaac?

Mike



Truly sorry to hear about this situation, especially since I love following prototypes. The situation makes me ill.

Now that I have gotten through the thread more, I can edit this message to say that I for one would contribute to any legal fund as I believe Arnaud and Bill have suggested. The reason I would be willing to contribute is that things like this situation affect the hobby and us all in general. If we took someone's head off (not literally of course) it should send a message to others who would pull this kind of crap.

I would even do a monthly amount.

Regards,
JT

--------------------
Disclaimer: No vintage MOCs (or baggies) were harmed during the preparation of this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe3TWZ_3qRg&feature=player_embedded#!
[url=http://powerofthetoys.com/afa]

Edited by Jetson (09/23/10 09:00 PM)


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Ty



Reged: 06/29/00
Loc: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: HollywoodHeroes]
      #4346820 - 09/23/10 08:31 PM

I really wanted to reply to this thread as well but I don't really have anything to add other than that I feel the same as others who have posted their anger/disgust/disappointment over this situation, this is the kind of thing that we cannot just "forgive and forget"; it hurts the entire hobby which in turn effects us all in some capacity, and those that it is directly effecting, I'm really sorry this [censored] is happening to you. This community is like a family, we've all been here now for quite a long time and pretty much 97%+ of the people I've dealt with are hardworking honest people who'd hand over their shirt should the situation warrant it. Anyhow, point is I hope there is some resolution to all of this. Whenever someone I know gets screwed over I take it rather personally and will not stand for it. Refunds and major apologies are owed here, anything less is not enough. I'm not even sure if that would be enough, but it'd be a good start.

You can't just whip up a batch of fake prototypes, sell them and expect not to get caught.

--------------------
Reeyees-Tessek
tjr82@hotmail.com

...Impatiently waiting for the 30th anniversary of ROTJ! I want more toys!


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tapuvae



Reged: 12/20/03
Loc: us
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: ronsalvatore]
      #4346821 - 09/23/10 08:33 PM

ronsalvatore wrote:
HollywoodHeroes wrote:
Yes Ron-

A questionable piece was removed the second day when it was brought to me attention by another collector. This was done first thing in the morning.

My involvement was minimal. I purchased a case specifically for Scott to display his items. Scott set them in the case at at the beginning of the show, and cleared them at the end of the day.

I did not look closely at any of the items, because I had no reason to doubt them at the show. When I personally handled items, it was little more than taking them out of the case and presenting them to collectors.

Most importantly, when someone asked questions such as "Jordan, whats the story with that item," or "Hey, can you tell me what that is exactly?" I referred them to Scott. I remember saying that I sounded like a broken record player stating the same thing over and over... "talk to Scott, you would have to ask Scott that question."

Pieces were looked at carefully by collectors. At times, up to three different people would look at the same item. All were satisfied with what they were purchasing... all seemed content and happy.

In short: Hollywood Heroes offered retail space to a client. For the record... FOUR additional collectors/Kenner clients showcased their items at the Hollywood Heroes booth. There were items from the current 12" line and micro lines, as well as vintage plush and prototype items.

I think its unfair saying that by allowing someone retail space to sell their wares, that I knowingly and willfully had involvement in the selling of these hardcopies.

One final note... to the best of my knowledge (and I am sure that I would have heard differently by now) everyone was happy with their purchases from the Hollywood Heroes booth. I know people saw Scott privately off the show floor.. but that is a different deal.

I hope this clears up any confusion for anyone. If there are any collectors who need me or wish to contact me please do so : jordan@hollywoodheroes.com

Thanks so much
Jordan



Like I said. I'll take you at your word. I legitimately don't think you were involved at all in the forgery aspects of this. I think it's more likely you got suckered along with everyone else.

But I think you're doing yourself a disservice as a known dealer when you disassociate yourself from the clients you have represented and the items those clients have offered for sale via your services -- even if those services involved nothing more than the provision of display real estate.

Surely you vet the clients and products you represent, right? I think that's what your customers assume. I also assume that you, your clients and your customers attach some kind of significance to the HH brand.

I'm really not trying to give you a hard time (okay, I am a little bit); I'm mostly trying to point out that your "no involvement" position doesn't square with your rep as a well-known dealer. I, for one, expect well-known dealers to stand up for their clients, their services and their products.

Anyway, I do hope that you'll go out of your way to set the record straight with anyone who saw that stuff at your booth or on your site and was persuaded to believe it was legit. It might be a good idea to point those individuals to this thread so they can get brushed up.

I also trust that if you're still in contact with Scott and/or are in possession of some of his stuff, you'll do everything you can to make things right.



In other collecting arenas big shows are vetted by a committee of, get this, other dealers at the show. It is very political and can get nasty when people pull other people's pieces to protect the client base that attends. That is the promoter protecting their brand.


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Ty



Reged: 06/29/00
Loc: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: Ty]
      #4346826 - 09/23/10 08:37 PM

And my post was not pointed at you Jordan. It was aimed straight at Scott.

--------------------
Reeyees-Tessek
tjr82@hotmail.com

...Impatiently waiting for the 30th anniversary of ROTJ! I want more toys!


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phidias_barrios



Reged: 12/14/05
Loc: los angeles
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: HollywoodHeroes]
      #4346827 - 09/23/10 08:38 PM

HollywoodHeroes wrote:


Hollywood Heroes brokered a Luke Bespin about 5 years ago for another collector. It has been traced back to Scott and we are granting a full refund, no questions asked.

Hope this helps!

All the best-
Jordan



Just to let everyone know, this was the ESB hardcopy I was referring to in my earlier response to this thread.

I bought it from Jordan last year not knowing it traced back to Scott. One of its legs is pictured in ChrisG's black light pic.

I appreciate that Jordan and I are resolving the situation.


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HollywoodHeroes



Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: tapuvae]
      #4346833 - 09/23/10 08:40 PM

Ron-

Fair enough.

I do believe that everyone who purchased a significant dollar amount at the show.. has been here. I mean, it was like a RS reunion at the HH booth. Everyone knew everyone else.

And yes.. I am in contact with Scott every single day. For the record... I consider him a friend. I enjoy speaking with him and the company of his family. And, while not many folks are saying nice things about him currently.. I will say this. When I called him and expressed my frustration over my lack of quality vintage toys for the show all he said was.. "Tell me what you need.. I'm there... take all my playsets and ships" He offered to help, and was spot on with his committment.

Right now, Hollywood Heroes is focusing on brokering the remainder of Scott's collection. It may take months, it may take years.

While I can't go into too many details I will say that my hands are somewhat tied, legally, as to what is to be sold and where.

I walk a proverbial tightrope everyday of morality and legality. On one hand, I have the masses of collectors who are looking for satisfaction. On the other hand, I have a frustrated client is wants his collection sold.

Legally, I can not decide who gets the money. It has to go to Scott or his benefactors of choice. This is not Robin Hood, and I can not steal from the Rich and give to the Poor.

I know what you're thinking... I'm putting a TARGET on my back.

Trust me, right now, Hollywood Heroes is the only viable outlet for this collection. If it does not go through our company... it will never see the light of day.

This is complete honesty and transparency here people... this is truth. My plan is sell the collection and advise Scott on what to do with the money. However, I can't make him.

And Ron yes, I do believe you know that I am working diligently behind the scenes with all parties to somehow make this community whole again.

Best to all,
Jordan

--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com

Edited by HollywoodHeroes (09/23/10 08:47 PM)


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ronsalvatore



Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: phidias_barrios]
      #4346834 - 09/23/10 08:42 PM

phidias_barrios wrote:
HollywoodHeroes wrote:


Hollywood Heroes brokered a Luke Bespin about 5 years ago for another collector. It has been traced back to Scott and we are granting a full refund, no questions asked.

Hope this helps!

All the best-
Jordan



Just to let everyone know, this was the ESB hardcopy I was referring to in my earlier response to this thread.

I bought it from Jordan last year not knowing it traced back to Scott. One of its legs is pictured in ChrisG's black light pic.

I appreciate that Jordan and I are resolving the situation.



Glad to know Jordan gave you a refund. Definitely the right thing to do.

--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!


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CloudCity_Gangzr



Reged: 04/26/07
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: HollywoodHeroes]
      #4346858 - 09/23/10 09:27 PM

HollywoodHeroes wrote:

I walk a proverbial tightrope everyday of morality and legality. On one hand, I have the masses of collectors who are looking for satisfaction. On the other hand, I have a frustrated client is wants his collection sold.



Seems like an easy choice to me.

HollywoodHeroes wrote:
Legally, I can not decide who gets the money. It has to go to Scott or his benefactors of choice. This is not Robin Hood, and I can not steal from the Rich and give to the Poor.



Yeah? Do you think Scott is going to call the police?

HollywoodHeroes wrote:
I know what you're thinking... I'm putting a TARGET on my back.



You did, indeed. I have always associated you with Scott and that association has nothing to do with C5.

-Chad

Edited by CloudCity_Gangzr (09/23/10 09:33 PM)


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HollywoodHeroes



Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: CloudCity_Gangzr]
      #4346868 - 09/23/10 09:43 PM

Chad-

I respect your feelings.

The fact remains, that I am still going to do everything in my power to make sure folks come out of this whole.

Best to you,
Jordan

--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com


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michael_mensingerModerator



Reged: 12/24/00
Loc: Wilmington, DE, USA
Re: Please read - Message on fake prototypes [Re: HollywoodHeroes]
      #4346869 - 09/23/10 09:43 PM

Jordan wrote:

Quote:
If memory serves me, there were only a few hardcopies showcased in the glass booth: Weequay, Wicket, Tie Pilot, Bald Emperor, Lando



Jordan, in addition to what you've listed the following 3 3/4" figure hardcopies were also present in the case at Celebration 5:

- Nikto Unpainted Hardcopy (dynacast) (missing head)
- Leia Hoth Unpainted Hardcopy (carbalon) (missing head, but had clear first shot head)
- Lobot Unpainted Hardcopy (carbalon) (missing right arm)
- Luke Jedi - Alternate Sculpt - Unpainted Hardcopy (dynacast)(no head)
- Luke Bespin Painted Hardcopy (with swatches)

Of those five additions I've added to your list, I can absolutely trace three of the examples (Nikto, Leia Hoth, and Luke Jedi) of the five additions back to collectors who owned them before Scott, so those three should not be of concern. I can probably trace the Lobot back, but would need photos specifically showing the left leg's foot from the front and side view of the left leg. I can also trace most of the ones from your original list of five back to owners prior to Scott's ownership.

- Mike

--------------------
Buying vintage prototypes, snowtrooper rarities, & Kenner employee memorabilia

Edited by michael_mensinger (09/23/10 10:06 PM)