cfawcett
Reged: 11/06/00
Loc: North Carolina
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Rebelscum community,
I, as well as some other affected and concerned parties, need to bring a very important issue up to this community in regards to a widespread proliferation of fake prototypes that has surfaced recently. This appears to have been going on for at least five years, but it has only been in the past few months that people have started comparing notes in order to bring the truth to the surface. A collector by the name of Scott McWilliams, who lives near Orlando, Florida, has been selling fake hardcopy prototypes and possibly wax sculptings to collectors. These include both painted and unpainted hardcopies in materials visually similar to carbalon, dynacast and other less common vintage materials, but all purported to be authentic from legitimate Kenner sources. If you are a member of other forums or clubs, or a web master, we would ask that you please disseminate this information to as many people as possible so the community can be aware to be careful when buying hardcopy prototypes.
Some of the physical evidence which has been gathered thus far is outlined below:
1. Some “Hardcopies” with parting lines which match those on production figures and which sometimes mimic production flaws.
2. Some “Hardcopies” which are not sized correctly or have limbs which are not sized proportionately to the torsos.
3. Some “Hardcopies” have muddy or fuzzy details that are otherwise crisp and precise on known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.
4. Some “Hardcopies” have specific details that are cast incorrectly that do not match the same details on known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.
5. Some “Hardcopies” appear to have been made using poor casting practices which yield numerous surface flaws quite unlike known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.
6. Some “Hardcopies” show evidence of filled foot peg holes.
7. Some “Hardcopies” show evidence of sanded off copyright dates and lettering.
8. Some “Hardcopies” have poor placement and alignment of pins between the torso and limbs which is inconsistent with known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.
9. Some “Hardcopies” appear to have been cast with materials that are unlike known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies. This is most apparent on internal material features visible inside peg holes or when looking at broken parts.
10. Some “Hardcopies” are cast in material colors that don't quite match dynacast or carbalon of known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.
11. Some painted “Hardcopies” with poor quality paint jobs that do not match the detail and fineness of known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.
12. Some painted “Hardcopies” with a different type of paint which is too glossy when compared to known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.
13. Some painted “Hardcopies” with numerous air bubbles and globs of material which is inconsistent with the Kenner practice of painting only very good castings.
14. The majority of these painted “Hardcopies” show very little to no signs of age or scratching which is almost always apparent on known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies from 25-33 years ago.
While the above is a generic description of flaws seen across many fake “Hardcopies”, examples discovered so far range in quality from being quite different from known original examples and easy to spot to being of very high quality and difficult to spot.
Some buyers have agreed to come on to this thread with their figures and post specific examples. Beyond the physical evidence, statements made indicate a pattern of lies about sources and provenance. In several cases, pieces were claimed to lead back to specific former Kenner employees, however, when contacted for independent verification, those employees claimed either to never have had the pieces, or we were able to trace the provenance elsewhere. In other cases, items were sold claiming to be pieces shown on the Star Wars Collectors Archive when in fact the ownership of the Archive piece could be traced elsewhere. In nearly every single case known thus far, secrecy about each transaction and the transfer of ownership was insisted upon. There were explicit requirements not to show items to specific authorities or collectors - people who actually have experience with items of this type and who may have been able to spot potential fraud occurring.
This post has two purposes.
First, to warn everyone in the community to be very careful when buying items like hardcopies. Not every single hardcopy sold by Scott is a fake. He did have some legitimate prototype pieces.
Second, we're trying to help collectors who may have received fake pieces. If you have a piece you think may be questionable, please contact me at hcscam@12back.com
I'm sure there will be lots of questions and I, as well as others, will attempt to answer them. I realize that some of these terms may be unknown to all collectors. Therefore, it would be prudent to get a quick lesson by reading the Lexicon at The Star Wars Collectors Archive.
http://theswca.com/lexicon.html
Thank you.
Cj
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WTB: First Shot Warok, Palitoy ESB Han Hoth, PBP Han Hoth (ESB & ROTJ)
Vintage Toy Archive: http://www.12back.com
Edited by cfawcett (09/21/10 05:04 PM)
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Rebojazz
Reged: 06/08/06
Loc: Wheeling, WV
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Chris,
Do you know if this Scott has been selling them on Ebay or here on the forums? If so, do you have an id name?
Thanks for the info!
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Steven A. Weimer,
JediconWV Co-Organizer
www.jediconwv.net
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CloudCity_Gangzr
Reged: 04/26/07
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OH Damn! Here we go again. My mind immediately raced to this thread. I was told that Jordan from HH helped him sell those Ewoks. I’m not trying to fire up the rumor mill, and I apologize if that is untrue. I hope they were real.
It seems like Scott's name has always been shrouded in controversy. The wax thing is pretty scary. Are there even enough known legit waxes to give a verdict on their legitimacy? This is horrible news, it has a billyboy feel to it.
-Chad
Edited by CloudCity_Gangzr (09/21/10 10:27 AM)
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HollywoodHeroes
Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
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Chad-
I am currently traveling right now, so please excuse the short response.
I did not help Scott sell the set of Unproduced Ewoks listed in that thread. That was Scott's deal entirely.
Scott sold some prototypes from my booth at CV, where many collectors were in attendance and were able to inspect the items firsthand and speak to Scott.When he was in the booth, Scott made himself open to questions and spent time speaking to collectors.
When personally asked about items that I could not identify or give more information on... I directed potential buyers to Scott.
The set of unproduced Ewoks was sold by Scott several months ago, on his own.
Hope this helps-
Jordan
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Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com
Edited by HollywoodHeroes (09/21/10 10:51 AM)
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JohnA
Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
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CloudCity_Gangzr wrote:
The wax thing is pretty scary. Are there even enough known legit waxes to give a verdict on their legitimacy?
There are a lot of waxes on the Archive that are currently in collections, so, yes there are legit waxes to compare. I've seen at least 25+ to compare to. There's also questionable Micro waxes and a lot of those are out there also.
I'm in talks right now with Scott. I had hoped he would be agreeable but at this point he told me it was a consipiracy to take him down and that there was nothing wrong with the pieces. I'm going to be out about $4,500. 2 pieces are confirmed fake and 2 are still being looked at but are looking fake. Other data is being looked at and tested to confirm 100% but it does not look good. I emailed Scott hoping he'd make good but he basically told me they were real, he wasn't palying with these politics and good luck to me. He told 2 other people that the ecomony is bad and people are just trying to get their money back on good pieces. That attitude is terrible. I told him he should be going after his sources and trying to get his own back instead of placing blame on people trying to clear this mess up. Every chance has been given to Scott to make good on this but he seems to want to place the blame now. Some people have been given refunds and others given trades but once it came out just how many were bad he decided to just stop replying to many and to tell others good luck. I hope he'll reconsider as this is a bad situation and potentially one worth tens of thousands of dollars. I'm not at all happy that somebody who told me he was a friend is basically telling me I'll have to live with $4,500 worth of fakes.
John
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and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character
-Shai Hulud
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Joe_O
Reged: 09/27/04
Loc: Romania
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So sorry to hear this guys, wish you all the best in getting to the bottom of it all and I hope more money can be claimed back, terrible news indeed 
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Feedback
AFA U Grade - Read
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_Robbie_
Reged: 01/26/04
Loc: N.Ireland, UK
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This is very bad. Looks like a lot of collectors are going to have to evaluate their 'prototypes'.
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Despite the high cost of living, it remains popular
ROBBIE MULLAN
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RebelChris
Reged: 12/01/06
Loc: WY
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JohnA wrote:
CloudCity_Gangzr wrote:
The wax thing is pretty scary. Are there even enough known legit waxes to give a verdict on their legitimacy?
There are a lot of waxes on the Archive that are currently in collections, so, yes there are legit waxes to compare. I've seen at least 25+ to compare to. There's also questionable Micro waxes and a lot of those are out there also.
I'm in talks right now with Scott. I had hoped he would be agreeable but at this point he told me it was a consipiracy to take him down and that there was nothing wrong with the pieces. I'm going to be out about $4,500. 2 pieces are confirmed fake and 2 are still being looked at but are looking fake. Other data is being looked at and tested to confirm 100% but it does not look good. I emailed Scott hoping he'd make good but he basically told me they were real, he wasn't palying with these politics and good luck to me. He told 2 other people that the ecomony is bad and people are just trying to get their money back on good pieces. That attitude is terrible. I told him he should be going after his sources and trying to get his own back instead of placing blame on people trying to clear this mess up. Every chance has been given to Scott to make good on this but he seems to want to place the blame now. Some people have been given refunds and others given trades but once it came out just how many were bad he decided to just stop replying to many and to tell others good luck. I hope he'll reconsider as this is a bad situation and potentially one worth tens of thousands of dollars. I'm not at all happy that somebody who told me he was a friend is basically telling me I'll have to live with $4,500 worth of fakes.
John
John, that's terrible news. 
I'm having a hard time believing that he's gone the conspiracy theory route. Ugh!
I sent some emails to CJ.
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On the lookout for Rebel Commando pre-production and other interesting items.
And if you have want to get rid of your Jar-Jar pre-production shoot me a PM 
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KevinA
Reged: 08/29/05
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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HollywoodHeroes wrote:
Chad-
I am currently traveling right now, so please excuse the short response.
I did not help Scott sell the set of Unproduced Ewoks listed in that thread. That was Scott's deal entirely.
Scott sold some prototypes from my booth at CV, where many collectors were in attendance and were able to inspect the items firsthand and speak to Scott.When he was in the booth, Scott made himself open to questions and spent time speaking to collectors.
When personally asked about items that I could not identify or give more information on... I directed potential buyers to Scott.
The set of unproduced Ewoks was sold by Scott several months ago, on his own.
Hope this helps-
Jordan
I don't know any of the parties involved in this situation and I didn't go to CV.
But you've got a guy being accused of scamming out his friends and peers...same guy being accused of being a scammer worked a booth where theft occurred.
My apologies if I am completely out to lunch here but just putting 2 and 2 together
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Broc
Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
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Include me in with the other affected parties. I bought many pieces from Scott over the last 3 years and spent several thousand dollars with him. Earlier this year some of those pieces were proved to be fake and cast off of production figures. Scott was quite accomodating and gave me quick refunds for them. Unfortunately, I've now had some other pieces that came from him examined and they have been confirmed to be fake as well. There is also one other piece still to be looked at that appears to be bad but the verdict is still out on it.
I will be out around $6,500 at this point if all pieces are deemed fake. I've been in contact with Scott recently and he gave me the same conspiracy theory story and told me he would not be giving anymore refunds. Said he was leaving the hobby and thanked me for many great years. 
Like John, I hope he will reconsider his stance on this and refund me as well as any others affected. It is not any of our fault if he was duped by his sources and he needs to make it right. This is a terrible and most unfortunate situation for not only myself but for the hobby as a whole.
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Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)
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cfawcett
Reged: 11/06/00
Loc: North Carolina
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Kevin,
I see what you're thinking, but the pieces stolen from the C5 booth were Scott's pieces.
Cj
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WTB: First Shot Warok, Palitoy ESB Han Hoth, PBP Han Hoth (ESB & ROTJ)
Vintage Toy Archive: http://www.12back.com
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BruceW
Reged: 09/25/03
Loc: NC
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Broc wrote:
Include me in with the other affected parties. I bought many pieces from Scott over the last 3 years and spent several thousand dollars with him. Earlier this year some of those pieces were proved to be fake and cast off of production figures. Scott was quite accomodating and gave me quick refunds for them. Unfortunately, I've now had some other pieces that came from him examined and they have been confirmed to be fake as well. There is also one other piece still to be looked at that appears to be bad but the verdict is still out on it.
I will be out around $6,500 at this point if all pieces are deemed fake. I've been in contact with Scott recently and he gave me the same conspiracy theory story and told me he would not be giving anymore refunds. Said he was leaving the hobby and thanked me for many great years.
Like John, I hope he will reconsider his stance on this and refund me as well as any others affected. It is not any of our fault if he was duped by his sources and he needs to make it right. This is a terrible and most unfortunate situation for not only myself but for the hobby as a whole.
Ho-lee crap! Wow, Broc (and JohnA), I'm really sorry to hear about this situation! That sucks!
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"Hel-lo what have we here?"
"Leia."
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JohnA
Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
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BruceW wrote:
Ho-lee crap! Wow, Broc (and JohnA), I'm really sorry to hear about this situation! That sucks!
Many thanks for the sympathy, Bruce, but it's way more than us, WAY more. I've talked to only a handful of people so far and this is really a LOT of money. As stated, some pieces are real and some trades and refunds were given but I don't think Scott wants to admit the gravity of this. He's being naive to think that we're all wrong. Some looked bad at first glance, I've had some in my hands that worried me right off the bat, but others looked damn good and only were realized when compared to authentic pieces. Then the differences become glaring. The pieces were obviously pulled from production pieces since details don't match legitimate hardcopies with a rock solid history. During tooling changes are often made to production pieces but all hardcopies should match since they were pulled from the one and only sculpting. If pieces match the production piece and NOT a hardcopy it's just not legit.
John
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and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character
-Shai Hulud
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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Some of the alleged fakes that I've seen are so poor that I'm surprised this didn't break sooner.
Some lessons to be learned here:
1) When a seller asks you to keep a transaction completely secret, especially from certain people, it might be good to question his motives.
2) When an individual suddenly claims to own 200 hardcopies, virtually none of which trace back to verifiable sources, regard it as a red flag.
3) Know where your stuff comes from! Most legit vintage hardcopies can be traced back to one of the following sources:
The Earth
Steve Denny
Intergalactic
Tom Neiheisel
Kim Simmons
One of Ed A's various leads
There are a lot of exceptions, of course, but those have been the major sources.
4) Multiple, complete hardcopies of the same character almost never turn up, especially for pre-ROTJ figures -- and especially not from the same source at the same time. If a seller offers you two Death Squad Commanders, it's a huge red flag. (It's even more of a red flag if those multiple copies are all in different materials).
5) Kenner only painted nice, nearly flawless hardcopies. No painted hardcopy I've ever seen has air bubbles, visible casting flaws, etc.
6) Most of the "unfinished" and/or random hardcopy parts out there came from contacts associated with the old Kenner model shop. Many of them were Ed's contacts. The other sources mostly had complete (and usually painted) hardcopies. If someone offers you random or flaw-ridden parts that cannot be traced back to a good source, regard it as a red flag. The great majority of hardcopies that made it out of Kenner were complete.
7) Hardcopies always, always have better detail than production figures. It's finer, tighter, etc. If the details on something you're looking at are bulbous or muddy, question it.
8) A protomolded figure should not have air bubbles in it. It's injection-molded plastic!
9) As far as I know, legit protomolded parts have not turned up in any quantity. Protomolded figures are virtually always complete, and they're usually fully painted. If someone offers you a protomolded head or arm -- red flag.
This whole thing is going to hit the hobby like one big growing pain.
The alleged culprits will claim they're being taken down unfairly, due to jealousy or "politics" or whatever. It's up to each of you to decide if you believe that.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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phidias_barrios
Reged: 12/14/05
Loc: los angeles
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KevinA wrote:
But you've got a guy being accused of scamming out his friends and peers...same guy being accused of being a scammer worked a booth where theft occurred.
Kevin, I think it was Scott's pieces that got stolen or misplaced at Jordan's booth during CV. A dulok shaman and scout hardcopy I believe.
I bought a Bib Fortuna hardcopy piece directly from Scott that turned out to be fake. I was one of the lucky ones that was able to get a refund from him. After that scare, I started checking the other hardcopies in my collection and found another one that looked questionable. This was an IG88 piece. I traced the ownership back to Scott for this piece as well. This piece had the date stamps sanded off the back. I was able to get a refund for this as well. The thing is, at least in my case, Scott's provenance didn't check out for my pieces. The names he gave me refuted ever selling Scott the pieces in question. One of them flat out didn't even know who he was. So again, just speaking for myself, it's hard to argue that the buck doesn't stop with him for this green harvest, brown harvest, or whatever rainbow colored stuff he sold or still has.
I thought I had all of this mess behind me but it looks like I have one more ESB piece in my collection that I didn't know came from Scott. It turns out it did in fact originate from his collection and unfortunately it has also been confirmed as fake under some special tests. I'll be seeking a resolution from the person who sold it to me.
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KevinA
Reged: 08/29/05
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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cfawcett wrote:
Kevin,
I see what you're thinking, but the pieces stolen from the C5 booth were Scott's pieces.
Cj
I'm a terrible detective! I guess it can still look suspicious given the circumstances - maybe a way to try and get money out of HH. Or a way to hide fakes when asked to see them? Anyways, I don't know Scott so I'll stop there.
Good luck figuring out this mess guys!
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DarthBerizing
Reged: 09/23/08
Loc: Dutchess County, NY
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To Broc and JohnA (so far) I can't tell you how bad I feel. I'm gutted just reading it, let alone living it.
Caveating with "Innocent until proven guilty" I'll say this:
Florida Statute of Limitations is as follows:
Fraud 4 years
Oral Contract 4 years
Writen Contract 5 years
Contract could be interepreted as the contract to deliver specific goods. His delivery of a fake should therefore deem the contract as unfulfilled.
I'd call an attorney and take a legal action if this is concretly proven to be fake. Ironically (despite both your well deserved places in the hobby) contact CIB to get a 3rd party on record to validate the claim.
Good luck though, nobody should be out the cash except the seller if this turns out to be true.
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My Feedback
http://threads.rebelscum.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3481796&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#3481796
Edited by DarthBerizing (09/21/10 01:13 PM)
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SABRESEDGE
Reged: 09/29/05
Loc: OHIO
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This is just another reason why I stay FAR away from prototype stuff. Way too many fakes. I could trust CJ and a few others that I know personally but not many more. I sincerely hope everyone affected gets some sort of reimbursement from the parties in question.
James
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Star Wars stuff is a horrible investment. Star Wars fans are always broke because that's all they buy is Ramen noodles, peanut butter and Kenny Baker autographs.
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tapuvae
Reged: 12/20/03
Loc: us
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phidias_barrios wrote:
KevinA wrote:
But you've got a guy being accused of scamming out his friends and peers...same guy being accused of being a scammer worked a booth where theft occurred.
Kevin, I think it was Scott's pieces that got stolen or misplaced at Jordan's booth during CV. A dulok shaman and scout hardcopy I believe.
I bought a Bib Fortuna hardcopy piece directly from Scott that turned out to be fake. I was one of the lucky ones that was able to get a refund from him. After that scare, I started checking the other hardcopies in my collection and found another one that looked questionable. This was an IG88 piece. I traced the ownership back to Scott for this piece as well. This piece had the date stamps sanded off the back. I was able to get a refund for this as well. The thing is, at least in my case, Scott's provenance didn't check out for my pieces. The names he gave me refuted ever selling Scott the pieces in question. One of them flat out didn't even know who he was. So again, just speaking for myself, it's hard to argue that the buck doesn't stop with him for this green harvest, brown harvest, or whatever rainbow colored stuff he sold or still has.
I thought I had all of this mess behind me but it looks like I have one more ESB piece in my collection that I didn't know came from Scott. It turns out it did in fact originate from his collection and unfortunately it has also been confirmed as fake under some special tests. I'll be seeking a resolution from the person who sold it to me.
First, sorry to hear about this, yet another area of collecting being destroyed by fakes. Second, this post brings up an interesting issue. If I bought a piece from X who bought it from Scott and then later sold the piece to Y, where does the buck stop with demanding refunds? If I in good faith sold the piece to Y not knowing the connection to Scott does that make me liable? FWIW, I own no hardcopies and have never bought or sold anything to anyone involved in this. I am speaking hypothetically.
I imagine the perp is destroying evidence rather than reading emails at this point.
Chris
Edited by tapuvae (09/21/10 01:49 PM)
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tapuvae
Reged: 12/20/03
Loc: us
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SABRESEDGE wrote:
This is just another reason why I stay FAR away from prototype stuff. Way too many fakes. I could trust CJ and a few others that I know personally but not many more. I sincerely hope everyone affected gets some sort of reimbursement from the parties in question.
James
This relates to my question below your post. If you did buy from a respected source, many of which are posting that they had been duped, who owes a refund to whom? Messy, messy.
Unfortunately, this makes provenance so important that only buying from rock solid, early sources will appease doubts, and these sources are the least likely to ever sell anything anyway.
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tapuvae
Reged: 12/20/03
Loc: us
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Are there any examples on the SWCA that can be pointed out as fakes to demonstrate some of the issues discussed in this thread? I assume once the dust settles some images will be added here but I'm afraid such info may be kept close to home to prevent better fakes in the future.
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JohnA
Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Sadly, because many of us do have good names we have to take care of friends. For example, Broc bought a piece from Scott and I bought from him and JoeY bought from me. It was proven fake a few days ago. I am refunding Joe, and Broc me. None of us think it is fair to stick somebody with a fake so, sadly, the buck is stopping at whomever purchased from Scott and hoping he will refund them. This does not seem to be the case anymore though.
I also let go one of mine in trade. That was also priven fake and now I have to try make good on that trade and I get stuck with the fake piece unless Scott refunds me. It's a mess. At least this is the way some of us are dealing. Not sure if it is the law but some of us want to make sure people are taken care of who bought/traded from/with us.
John
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and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character
-Shai Hulud
Edited by JohnA (09/21/10 03:20 PM)
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cfawcett
Reged: 11/06/00
Loc: North Carolina
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I'm certain that we'll be seeing some pictures on this thread with descriptions of the problems. I'll be posting mine later this week.
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WTB: First Shot Warok, Palitoy ESB Han Hoth, PBP Han Hoth (ESB & ROTJ)
Vintage Toy Archive: http://www.12back.com
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Shawn_K
Reged: 03/11/05
Loc: Utah
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This is very disturbing news. I hope that most, if not all of these fakes, can be identified and it works out for everyone to get their money back.
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Collection|Feedback|U Grade
WTB: Luke Hoth Coin
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Jarrod_Zutton79
Reged: 09/20/02
Loc: New England
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JohnA wrote:
Sadly, many of us do have good names and are taking care of friends. For example, Broc bought a piece from Scott and I bought from him and JoeY bought from me. It was proven fake a few days ago. I am refundung Joe, and Broc me. None of us think it is fair to stick somebody with a fake so, sadly, the buck is stopping at whomever purchased from Scott and hoping he will refund them. This does not seem to be the case anymore though.
I also let go one of mine in trade. That was also priven fake and now I have to try make good on that trade and I get stuck with the fake piece unless Scott refunds me. It's a mess. At least this is the way some of us are dealing. Not sure if it is the law but some of us want to make sure people are taken care of who bought/traded from/with us.
John
This whole situation is terrible. I am sorry for everyone who is involved. John, I think that the way that you and others are refunding each other and making right between one another is very commendable. We can all only hope that others will follow your lead and do the same, ESPECIALLY Scott.
I know it has been stated that the fakes are hardcopies and possibly wax sculptings, but does anyone know if people who bought first shots and protomolded pieces from Scott are safe? At this point I am sure anyone who has purchased or traded with him in the past (myself included) are a little nervous.
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Currently looking for Ewoks Preschool and Plush items including protos, proofs, artwork, etc.
My Feedback
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Broc
Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
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Like John said, I will be taking care of the people that bought stuff from me that has proven to be fake. I've been in contact with the collectors affected and offered full refunds. It is not their fault that I was duped by these fake pieces, so they should not be stuck with them or saddled by the hassles of trying to get a refund. I'm out around $6,500 at this point on pieces that are definitely fake and a couple that are still being examined which are not looking good at this point.
While I sold them in complete faith that the pieces were legit, I feel absolutely terrible that the pieces are in fact fake and couldnt' live with myself if I didn't do everything in my control to make it right. It never occurred me not to refund the money. It's the right and only thing to do.
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Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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Jarrod_Zutton79 wrote:
JohnA wrote:
Sadly, many of us do have good names and are taking care of friends. For example, Broc bought a piece from Scott and I bought from him and JoeY bought from me. It was proven fake a few days ago. I am refundung Joe, and Broc me. None of us think it is fair to stick somebody with a fake so, sadly, the buck is stopping at whomever purchased from Scott and hoping he will refund them. This does not seem to be the case anymore though.
I also let go one of mine in trade. That was also priven fake and now I have to try make good on that trade and I get stuck with the fake piece unless Scott refunds me. It's a mess. At least this is the way some of us are dealing. Not sure if it is the law but some of us want to make sure people are taken care of who bought/traded from/with us.
John
This whole situation is terrible. I am sorry for everyone who is involved. John, I think that the way that you and others are refunding each other and making right between one another is very commendable. We can all only hope that others will follow your lead and do the same, ESPECIALLY Scott.
I know it has been stated that the fakes are hardcopies and possibly wax sculptings, but does anyone know if people who bought first shots and protomolded pieces from Scott are safe? At this point I am sure anyone who has purchased or traded with him in the past (myself included) are a little nervous.
If it's a legit first shot (i.e. a production-quality figure), I'm sure it's fine. It's just not possible to fake something like that.
I've definitely seen photos of a supposedly protomolded part that came from Scott, and it looked bad, with what appeared to be air pockets in the material. I'm sure it'll be looked at more closely soon.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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Shane Turgeon
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: Edmonton, Alberta
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Jarrod_Zutton79 wrote:
I know it has been stated that the fakes are hardcopies and possibly wax sculptings, but does anyone know if people who bought first shots and protomolded pieces from Scott are safe? At this point I am sure anyone who has purchased or traded with him in the past (myself included) are a little nervous.
Sadly, with Scott having had a lot of legit stuff as well, it's ALL to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. I would definitely be looking over any and all pieces, especially first shots. I have heard of and seen FSs with sanded off COOs that can be traced back to Scott.
If you're looking for sanded COOs, use whatever tools necessary including magnifying glasses and microscopes to really get a close look at the COO area(s).
--------------------
Shane Turgeon
Author: The Force in the Flesh
www.theforceintheflesh.com
www.tattoosandtoys.com
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Todd_Hudson
Reged: 02/15/03
Loc: Maui HI
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This is very sad and unfortunate news...but something had stunk for a long time.
6-7 years ago I bought what I thought was a first shot bossk from him with some other items. I had resold it later to Baldy who showed it to Chris G at Dragon Con. Chris proved it to be a fake and he could see small traces of the stamps being sanded off. Of course I refunded Baldy his money and when I brought it up to Scott he refused to refund my money. Couple years later I was at his house for a gathering with some other Orlando friends and had a chance to see alot of his hardcopies in person.
I had mentioned to Scott some things looked off especially when he had discovered a Rocket Fett Hardcopy and he said thats how some hardcopies had just looked. At this point I had probably only seen 10 hardcopies or so, I was no expert by any means but it was a gut feeling that things looked wrong.
I believe he gave me some kind of story of his next door neighbor was a past Kenner employee and that along with the Kenner phone book he had made some amazing connections and had been buying stuff from them. The story seemed strange but not impossible, looking back to much never added up. The funny thing is after that time at his house I talked to another friend in the hobby alot about what I saw and how off it looked and we both tried to get scott to sell us a hardcopy and he always went dead on communications when we tried to nail down a price. Maybe he was afraid we might bring it up or show certain people???
This really sucks and I can't believe how bad this is now and how bad I expect it to become. On another note, since funds where sent across state lines as well as Country lines my guess is this is well worse then a state crime and should be considered Federal. Has anyone tried to contact the FBI yet?
Todd
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"Now if your stealing money from your grandma and donating plasma to complete your Cheif Chirpa focus bootleg set then thats no fun and should probably be avoided."
http://WWW.TODDONMAUI.COM
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Michael_Ritter
Reged: 11/24/01
Loc: Long Island, NY
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I am gald to see this finally come to light. I had heard rumblings of this a while before CV and saw confirmation at CV. I really do feel bad for all the victims in this and hope this can be settled postively (though I doubt it unfortunately). Perhaps it might be worthwhile to contact a lawyer and/or law enforcement and see if there is any position that can be taken here. And since many of these 'prototypes' crossed state lines I assume by USPS, was there any mail fraud committed. Where are our lawyers in training, Tommy and Isaac? 
Mike
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"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!"
Looking for SWS.com's Vader's Trap print #14
Looking for R2 Prototypes MOC's & Cobot too! Also Droids R2 Original Art
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JosephY
Reged: 12/21/01
Loc: Providence RI
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JohnA wrote:
Sadly, many of us do have good names and are taking care of friends. For example, Broc bought a piece from Scott and I bought from him and JoeY bought from me. It was proven fake a few days ago. I am refundung Joe, and Broc me. None of us think it is fair to stick somebody with a fake so, sadly, the buck is stopping at whomever purchased from Scott and hoping he will refund them. This does not seem to be the case anymore though.
I also let go one of mine in trade. That was also priven fake and now I have to try make good on that trade and I get stuck with the fake piece unless Scott refunds me. It's a mess. At least this is the way some of us are dealing. Not sure if it is the law but some of us want to make sure people are taken care of who bought/traded from/with us.
John
And I'm very thankful that both you and Broc stepped up to the plate. I certianly wouldn't have thought any less of either of you if you had expected me to hold off and see how the direct situation with Scott panned out.
My .02 on the matter:
With it adding up to 5 YEARS+ of fakes coming from Scott,I personally do not believe for one second that he didn't know that they were fakes.
One thing to think about here, he works with wax and plastic resins at his job making custom ear pieces. hmmmmm. That mixed with fake prototypes coming from him. While it doesn't proove anything, it's an interesting combo.
*He had (fake) wax items, at Jordans booth, that (according to Rob A.) traced back to "Basement Bounty Hunters". These are noted and previously known fakes. Did he hope that the people that'd seen them before (like Rob) wouldn't remember the details of them?
His claims of it being hobby politics are invalid, as this has effected both collectors associated with the perceived "Inner Circle", as well as MANY collectors without long time friendships with that part of the community. There's no "political" benefit to this.
I truly hope that Scott mans up and takes care of this situation. I highly doubt it, with the kind of money that's being talked about. IF he can be charged with criminal counts of fraud, that'd certianly help the civil cases that I'm sure are on the horizon for this situation. It sucks to see many of my friends out this kind of money and the person that scammed them claiming that it's hobby jealousy.
Pathetic excuse man.
It's a dark day in the SW prototype collecting community to be sure.
Good luck guys.
Joe
--------------------
"You should be ashamed of yourself for supporting pirate Star Wars toys!"-TBFN
Wants:ANY Carded Polish, Mexican Amanaman,Loose Hungarian Vader
http://www.myspace.com/theusualsuspectsri
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Bill_Wills
Reged: 10/31/01
Loc: Monroe, OH
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Todd - I've wondered about the FBI as well. I've heard it takes a large amout of money before it will attract their attention, but I've heard some pretty big numbers thrown around. The problem is who knows how long it will take to determine the scope of the damage? And it's my understanding that there are international folks who were victimized as well which just adds to the complexity. At this point, I'm certain *lots* of evidence has been destroyed...
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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Todd_Hudson wrote:
I had mentioned to Scott some things looked off especially when he had discovered a Rocket Fett Hardcopy and he said thats how some hardcopies had just looked. At this point I had probably only seen 10 hardcopies or so, I was no expert by any means but it was a gut feeling that things looked wrong.
That supposed Rocketfett hardcopy is one of the worst (allegedly) fake prototypes I've ever laid eyes on. Just atrocious. And I only saw photos; lord knows how bad it looks in person.
And it could have been yours for only $25k!
--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
Edited by ronsalvatore (09/21/10 03:38 PM)
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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Shane Turgeon wrote:
Jarrod_Zutton79 wrote:
I know it has been stated that the fakes are hardcopies and possibly wax sculptings, but does anyone know if people who bought first shots and protomolded pieces from Scott are safe? At this point I am sure anyone who has purchased or traded with him in the past (myself included) are a little nervous.
Sadly, with Scott having had a lot of legit stuff as well, it's ALL to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. I would definitely be looking over any and all pieces, especially first shots. I have heard of and seen FSs with sanded off COOs that can be traced back to Scott.
If you're looking for sanded COOs, use whatever tools necessary including magnifying glasses and microscopes to really get a close look at the COO area(s).
I didn't even think of the COOs being sanded off. I thought you were talking about cast figures trying to pass as first shots.
I guess you should check the COO areas. But sanding of that type should be pretty obvious.
--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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Todd_Hudson
Reged: 02/15/03
Loc: Maui HI
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ronsalvatore wrote:
Todd_Hudson wrote:
I had mentioned to Scott some things looked off especially when he had discovered a Rocket Fett Hardcopy and he said thats how some hardcopies had just looked. At this point I had probably only seen 10 hardcopies or so, I was no expert by any means but it was a gut feeling that things looked wrong.
That supposed Rocketfett hardcopy is one of the worst fake prototypes I've ever laid eyes on. Just atrocious. And I only saw photos; lord knows how bad it looks in person.
And it could have been yours for only $25k!
It was pretty bad, there was access "dyncast" all around the inner tube. 25k eh? I was told he has a standing offer from someone in Japan for 50k.
I hope noone ever bought that piece
Todd
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"Now if your stealing money from your grandma and donating plasma to complete your Cheif Chirpa focus bootleg set then thats no fun and should probably be avoided."
http://WWW.TODDONMAUI.COM
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JohnA
Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Jeff's eagle eyes actually spotted the Bossk FS. It looked off and we all looked at it but Jeff confirmed it.
Todd_Hudson wrote:
25k eh? I was told he has a standing offer from someone in Japan for 50k.
I hope noone ever bought that piece
Todd
I'd heard it offered to $30k here and he told people that somebody else was going to pay him $50k for it.
John
--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character
-Shai Hulud
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Jarrod_Zutton79
Reged: 09/20/02
Loc: New England
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ronsalvatore wrote:
Shane Turgeon wrote:
Jarrod_Zutton79 wrote:
I know it has been stated that the fakes are hardcopies and possibly wax sculptings, but does anyone know if people who bought first shots and protomolded pieces from Scott are safe? At this point I am sure anyone who has purchased or traded with him in the past (myself included) are a little nervous.
Sadly, with Scott having had a lot of legit stuff as well, it's ALL to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. I would definitely be looking over any and all pieces, especially first shots. I have heard of and seen FSs with sanded off COOs that can be traced back to Scott.
If you're looking for sanded COOs, use whatever tools necessary including magnifying glasses and microscopes to really get a close look at the COO area(s).
I didn't even think of the COOs being sanded off. I thought you were talking about cast figures trying to pass as first shots.
I guess you should check the COO areas. But sanding of that type should be pretty obvious.
Thanks Shane and Ron, I am sure others will appreciate this information as well.
--------------------
Currently looking for Ewoks Preschool and Plush items including protos, proofs, artwork, etc.
My Feedback
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Shane Turgeon
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: Edmonton, Alberta
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JohnA wrote:
Jeff's eagle eyes actually spotted the Bossk FS. It looked off and we all looked at it but Jeff confirmed it.
I wasn't going to say anything but since you said it, it was actually me who spotted it.
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Shane Turgeon
Author: The Force in the Flesh
www.theforceintheflesh.com
www.tattoosandtoys.com
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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Bill_Wills wrote:
Todd - I've wondered about the FBI as well. I've heard it takes a large amout of money before it will attract their attention, but I've heard some pretty big numbers thrown around. The problem is who knows how long it will take to determine the scope of the damage? And it's my understanding that there are international folks who were victimized as well which just adds to the complexity. At this point, I'm certain *lots* of evidence has been destroyed...
Plenty of bad pieces and incriminating emails still exist.
-chris
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The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
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Todd_Hudson
Reged: 02/15/03
Loc: Maui HI
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ChrisGeorgoulias wrote:
Bill_Wills wrote:
Todd - I've wondered about the FBI as well. I've heard it takes a large amout of money before it will attract their attention, but I've heard some pretty big numbers thrown around. The problem is who knows how long it will take to determine the scope of the damage? And it's my understanding that there are international folks who were victimized as well which just adds to the complexity. At this point, I'm certain *lots* of evidence has been destroyed...
Plenty of bad pieces and incriminating emails still exist.
-chris
If payments where made via Paypal or Personal Checks that's a huge paper trail to follow as well
Todd
--------------------
"Now if your stealing money from your grandma and donating plasma to complete your Cheif Chirpa focus bootleg set then thats no fun and should probably be avoided."
http://WWW.TODDONMAUI.COM
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Todd_Hudson
Reged: 02/15/03
Loc: Maui HI
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BTW...is there a rough estimate to how many Hardcopies/Waxes and protomolds have been sold?
Todd
--------------------
"Now if your stealing money from your grandma and donating plasma to complete your Cheif Chirpa focus bootleg set then thats no fun and should probably be avoided."
http://WWW.TODDONMAUI.COM
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doc_atomic
Reged: 08/24/10
Loc: NYC
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Terrible news for you guys -- really sorry to hear about it. Getting scammed on any level sucks, but this... Not cool at all.
And as others have said, I really applaud everyone's willingness to step up to the plate to make the deals right. Legal obligations -- or lack thereof -- notwithstanding, it shows what type of people you really are that you'd go the extra mile in a situation like this.
I just hope that when the dust settles, you're able to see some compensation and get some -- if not all -- of your money back.
Good luck!
--------------------
Hi, my name is Brian.
My Feedback!
My Vintage Toy Blog!
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_Lee_
Reged: 03/16/02
Loc: United Kingdom.
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Wow 
I feel for you guys who have been duped into buying these.I hope it all pans out well for you guys in the end,and this ratbag is taken to the cleaners.
I would however like to ask a question,and it isnt meant as an attack on your expertise or whatever.How on earth,considering the vast knowledge you guys have(John,Broc,Joe etc)not spot these as fakes?Someone stated that Chris G determined one of them to be fake,so how did you guys miss it? This stinks for sure,and TBH after seeing the amount of prototypes being slabbed by AFA in the last few years,whats to say some of these fakes havent been passed as original by AFA/CIB themselves.I am of the opinion that you guys have more knowledge than all of those guys,and would take your opinion over a legit piece any day of the week but this is a very worrying time for all proto collectors.I am just stunned by the situation,and saddened for all you guys.
I promise you guys this wasnt a personal dig at you,but im thinking many people may have asked this but didnt want to incase you took it the wrong way.I didnt mention AFA/CIB to start a mud slinging competition either,i just think this could be an important factor in this.If you guys got duped,then IMO anyone can.
Again,i hope you all get this sorted.
Lee
--------------------
"And what kinda stunts did Saturday Night Fever need? Was Lighting Bear doing the dancing?"
Looking for vintage POTF Luke Stormtrooper,R2 pop up,EV9D9 and Blue Snaggletooth.
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AJ_van_Zelst
Reged: 02/01/04
Loc: The Netherlands
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I'm shocked to hear this guys. I always had great contact with him and he seemed a respected part of the communitee. He gave me a lot of info on designers of Ewoks and stuff.
I have pictures of his unproduced Ewoks, full loose and some carded. I wonder if some of those are now proven to be fakes. Also would love to know if his Logray pieces have been proven to be fake. He claimed to have 2 pieces. He has offered me Ewoks pieces in the past, but we never came to a deal (mostly to costly for me). I'm realy glad that I dogged the bullet, but feel badly for you guys.
I hope these fakes get documented well by all the parties involved. In any case, if there is legal action / criminal action, do it with all parties involved. The evidence-problem is easier solved that way.
Good luck and get the bast*rd!
-Alex
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WTB: Ewoks cartoon prototypes: firstshots, ep's, toy fair (incl. Blue Harvest), esp. * Logray *
Edited by AJ_van_Zelst (09/21/10 04:03 PM)
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Bill_Wills
Reged: 10/31/01
Loc: Monroe, OH
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No question. I'm just saying ideally in a potential felony fraud situation, the authorities are involved and search warrants are granted before the defendant knows what's afoot. But I'm glad to know corroborating emails are in existence.
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Bill_McBride
Reged: 05/01/01
Loc: Washington DC
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Shane Turgeon wrote:
Sadly, with Scott having had a lot of legit stuff as well, it's ALL to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. I would definitely be looking over any and all pieces, especially first shots. I have heard of and seen FSs with sanded off COOs that can be traced back to Scott.
If you're looking for sanded COOs, use whatever tools necessary including magnifying glasses and microscopes to really get a close look at the COO area(s).
I agree with Shane. This is part of the education process when it comes to pieces like this. Personally, I use a 10mp digital camera, and take macros of anything I want to look at. I can see details that you simply can't see otherwise.
Personally, I never dealt with him specifically for the reasons Ron mentioned. I have seen some amazing things, but no one, and I mean no one had ever come close to the rough estimate I had of pieces Scott claimed, or sold.
If anyone has any Vaders they would like to cross check with me, I can tell you what to look for. I have three protomolded figures, and they all have two similarities which are easy enough to spot once you know what to look for. (I'm obviously not going to post this publicaly. Please PM, or email me at sithtoys@aol.com)
Bill
~ I am sorry for everyone involved. I think the best thing to do is file a class action suit. Total everything up and it could be on the felony/federal level. From the numbers you guys are throwing out, it sounds like this is quite serious.
--------------------
Buying Rare and Unusual Darth Vader Items; Vintage and New
Check out The Darth Vader Toy Museum at: www.sithtoys.com
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Todd_Hudson
Reged: 02/15/03
Loc: Maui HI
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_Lee_ wrote:
Wow
I feel for you guys who have been duped into buying these.I hope it all pans out well for you guys in the end,and this ratbag is taken to the cleaners.
I would however like to ask a question,and it isnt meant as an attack on your expertise or whatever.How on earth,considering the vast knowledge you guys have(John,Broc,Joe etc)not spot these as fakes?Someone stated that Chris G determined one of them to be fake,so how did you guys miss it? This stinks for sure,and TBH after seeing the amount of prototypes being slabbed by AFA in the last few years,whats to say some of these fakes havent been passed as original by AFA/CIB themselves.I am of the opinion that you guys have more knowledge than all of those guys,and would take your opinion over a legit piece any day of the week but this is a very worrying time for all proto collectors.I am just stunned by the situation,and saddened for all you guys.
I promise you guys this wasnt a personal dig at you,but im thinking many people may have asked this but didnt want to incase you took it the wrong way.I didnt mention AFA/CIB to start a mud slinging competition either,i just think this could be an important factor in this.If you guys got duped,then IMO anyone can.
Again,i hope you all get this sorted.
Lee
Lee,
I'm just guessing here but I'm sure some of the guys who bought just gave it a nice looking over and never really thought someone they knew who has real stuff and kenner contacts would try and pull the stunt.
I doubt CIB would have certified a fake, there are only a real few experts in the field, Tom Derby, Chris G, Ron S and Eddie..maybe a few more. These guys have a true love for the whole process and have talked extensively with ex-kenner people and know all the stages of production. Like Ron said, they wouldnt have painted something that wasnt perfect. I never knew that but someone who had been talking with Kenner people for years would know this.
I know people like Bill, CJ, John, Broc and even Joe have alot of knowledge in this area so I wasnt trying to slight any of you..just that there are a few others with alot more experience in this matter.
Todd
--------------------
"Now if your stealing money from your grandma and donating plasma to complete your Cheif Chirpa focus bootleg set then thats no fun and should probably be avoided."
http://WWW.TODDONMAUI.COM
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cfawcett
Reged: 11/06/00
Loc: North Carolina
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Lee,
Many of the fakes were pretty well done - to the point it would be easy to miss if you were not suspicious and looking for something. And there hadn't really been any HC fakes of this quality in the hobby before. It comes down to the fact that no one had any real reason to question them. And Scott made sure that remained the case by always asking for secrecy. I've had my pieces for three years and the first I heard about anything of Scott's possibly being fake was at C5.
That said, I'm still smacking myself in the head, because once you know that you should be looking for something fishy, at least on my pieces, it was obvious.
Cj
--------------------
WTB: First Shot Warok, Palitoy ESB Han Hoth, PBP Han Hoth (ESB & ROTJ)
Vintage Toy Archive: http://www.12back.com
Edited by cfawcett (09/21/10 04:29 PM)
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theguiltyone
Reged: 07/15/04
Loc: London. UK
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Well, its looking like Scott ripped me a new one to the tune of a fair few $$$.
I bought a LXW repro 10 complete figure hardcopy, a protomolded head and a carbalon head.
Not a happy camper
marc
--------------------
http://community.webshots.com/user/theguiltyone
WTB: Andys PBP LXW MOC if he ever finds one (for a fraction of what he paid).
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Bill_McBride
Reged: 05/01/01
Loc: Washington DC
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tapuvae wrote:
Unfortunately, this makes provenance so important that only buying from rock solid, early sources will appease doubts, and these sources are the least likely to ever sell anything anyway.
This is something I have harped on over and over in the past. It also makes a strong point for people sharing and communicating with each other instead of being "secretive" about something that's hardly a "secret". People have to remember a lot of these magical sources are actually very well known, far outside of the scope of people they think.
Bill
--------------------
Buying Rare and Unusual Darth Vader Items; Vintage and New
Check out The Darth Vader Toy Museum at: www.sithtoys.com
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Broc
Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
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Cj hit the nail on the head with his response. Most of the pieces I received were well done and without a legit piece in hand for comparison it was missed. Considering his collection has known legit pieces as well, there just wasn't much reason to question them at the time especially with all of the secrecy he requested. He told a believable story and unfortunately it appears many of us bought it (no pun intended).
-Broc
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Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)
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Shane Turgeon
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: Edmonton, Alberta
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One other important thing to remember: Scott also sold prototypes from other toy lines and i think that any and all protos from Scott, regardless of whether they are Star Wars or not, should also be scrutinized.
Scott had previously offered me 12" GI Joe sculpts and stated he had a number of MLP first shots as well. Thankfully, i never pursued anything from him as i never felt quite right about how much stuff he had access to. Did any of our esteemed Super Powers collectors buy prototype stuff from Scott? That would seem the next logical and easiest line for him to delve into.
--------------------
Shane Turgeon
Author: The Force in the Flesh
www.theforceintheflesh.com
www.tattoosandtoys.com
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JohnA
Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
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cfawcett wrote:
Lee,
Many of the fakes were pretty well done - to the point it would be easy to miss if you were not suspicious and looking for something.
CJ's right. I had a piece that was in my collection for a while now and quite a few people saw it at my house or in pics. Broc owned it, I owned it, Joe owned it, I even sent Derby pics recently and he even said it "looked" legit in pics. I swore it was good until side by sides were done with another HC with a rock solid history. Then the it was clear that the color was off, the details were off, the part lines were off, etc. It had the details that matched a production figure and NOT the other HC. It was even bigger than a production figure but that little trick has even been figured out. With a larger size, crisper details, and a guy I thought was solid I saw no reason to examine, like Cj. Some of the pieces I saw though stunk from the first time I saw them but some, like the piece I just mentioned, are really good fakes. It took a lot to prove what they really were but once you are looking some of them become much more obvious. I'd never give a second thought to a piece I bought from Ed, Chris, Gus, Ron, or Todd and I thought the same from Scott since he has so many Kenner names that he could have spoken to. Reputation goes a long way and I, and many others, thought that his was good enough not to worry.
John
--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character
-Shai Hulud
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JohnA
Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Shane Turgeon wrote:
Did any of our esteemed Super Powers collectors buy prototype stuff from Scott? That would seem the next logical and easiest line for him to delve into.
He showed me an Aquaman "sculpt" once. That could be bad too.
John
--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character
-Shai Hulud
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_Lee_
Reged: 03/16/02
Loc: United Kingdom.
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Broc wrote:
Cj hit the nail on the head with his response. Most of the pieces I received were well done and without a legit piece in hand for comparison it was missed. Considering his collection has known legit pieces as well, there just wasn't much reason to question them at the time especially with all of the secrecy he requested. He told a believable story and unfortunately it appears many of us bought it (no pun intended).
-Broc
Broc,
In no way was my question meant in a nasty way buddy(just wanted to state that again),and Todd and CJ's responses hit the nail on the head really.I just feel for you guys,and it proves that you have really keep an eye on who your freinds are.
Again,i hope you get this turd done.
Lee
--------------------
"And what kinda stunts did Saturday Night Fever need? Was Lighting Bear doing the dancing?"
Looking for vintage POTF Luke Stormtrooper,R2 pop up,EV9D9 and Blue Snaggletooth.
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Broc
Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
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_Lee_ wrote:
Broc wrote:
Cj hit the nail on the head with his response. Most of the pieces I received were well done and without a legit piece in hand for comparison it was missed. Considering his collection has known legit pieces as well, there just wasn't much reason to question them at the time especially with all of the secrecy he requested. He told a believable story and unfortunately it appears many of us bought it (no pun intended).
-Broc
Broc,
In no way was my question meant in a nasty way buddy(just wanted to state that again),and Todd and CJ's responses hit the nail on the head really.I just feel for you guys,and it proves that you have really keep an eye on who your freinds are.
Again,i hope you get this turd done.
Lee
No worries at all, Lee. I know you didn't mean anything nasty or ill by your question and didn't take it that way at all. It was certainly a valid question and needed to be addressed. Furthermore, John's response above was spot on as well.
I sincerely hope he steps up and makes this right with everyone that is affected.
--------------------
Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)
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Jason_West
Reged: 03/08/02
Loc: Northern Virginia
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Wow, I am shocked at this. Needless to say, any piece Scott sold should be called into question. I have been in contact with him recently and need to update some documents after reading this. This is a dark day for our hobby and the shockwaves will be felt for a long time. I will post some saved pictures later.
--------------------
Jason West
Collection and Blog: MADBROWNZ
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michael_mensinger
Reged: 12/24/00
Loc: Wilmington, DE, USA
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Shane wrote:
Quote:
Did any of our esteemed Super Powers collectors buy prototype stuff from Scott?
I can't speak for others, but I personally have not. I can confirm that Scott owned, and may still own, some legitimate two-dimensional Super Powers pieces that easily trace back past him to a former Super Powers collector, but it wasn't a large amount of material. If anyone is concerned about the authenticity of any Super Powers material in their collection, I'm always available to help out.
- Mike
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Buying vintage prototypes, snowtrooper rarities, & Kenner employee memorabilia
Edited by michael_mensinger (09/21/10 05:41 PM)
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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_Lee_ wrote:
Wow
I feel for you guys who have been duped into buying these.I hope it all pans out well for you guys in the end,and this ratbag is taken to the cleaners.
I would however like to ask a question,and it isnt meant as an attack on your expertise or whatever.How on earth,considering the vast knowledge you guys have(John,Broc,Joe etc)not spot these as fakes?Someone stated that Chris G determined one of them to be fake,so how did you guys miss it? This stinks for sure,and TBH after seeing the amount of prototypes being slabbed by AFA in the last few years,whats to say some of these fakes havent been passed as original by AFA/CIB themselves.I am of the opinion that you guys have more knowledge than all of those guys,and would take your opinion over a legit piece any day of the week but this is a very worrying time for all proto collectors.I am just stunned by the situation,and saddened for all you guys.
I promise you guys this wasnt a personal dig at you,but im thinking many people may have asked this but didnt want to incase you took it the wrong way.I didnt mention AFA/CIB to start a mud slinging competition either,i just think this could be an important factor in this.If you guys got duped,then IMO anyone can.
Again,i hope you all get this sorted.
Lee
I first heard of Scott 6 or 7 years ago in connection with a fantastical, impossible-to-believe story about his owning hundreds of complete hardcopies. I and others assumed the story to be a complete lie. If you know where just about every hardcopy out there came from, it's pretty hard to take a guy seriously when he claims to have hundreds of previously unknown examples -- and all from a mysterious source.
But as time went on many people simply came to accept that he had 1) tons of hardcopies and 2) great Kenner leads. I don't know how he convinced folks that he was for real, but he did.
I recall asking people who the source of Scott's stuff could possibly be. Who could have that many hardcopies? And was there any reason to assume that Scott wasn't lying?
I was told that Scott had circulated photos of his stuff to some people, that he had a neighbor who used to work at Kenner, etc. The belief around the hobby was that he'd done tons of legwork in turning this stuff up. Again, none of this was ever remotely proven. But people saw that he had a lot of stuff in his display cases and figured it had to come from somewhere.
I just stopped thinking about Scott after a while. I'd never spoken to him or examined any of his hardcopies, and I wasn't much interested in buying more prototypes anyway. I figured he was exaggerating... but had nevertheless bought some nice stuff from some other collector and was now selling it. None of the guys buying from him were complaining, so...whatever.
I think he started slowly, selling things to one or two guys. And then once he was established as a seller, a lot of other guys figured he was a-ok. Getting the inside track on terrific pieces also played a part.
Also remember that no one made the cognitive leap to forgery. People thought he might be exaggerating about his collection, but apparently it never crossed anyone's mind that someone might be making this stuff from scratch....until, that is, other people started examining the pieces more closely.
Apparently, Scott asked most of his buyers not to share it with certain "known" collectors. Because these people didn't like him, had it in for him, etc.
He did sell some things to more knowledgeable guys, but it was only the nicer stuff. And I don't think those guys ever bothered to really scrutinize the pieces. They seemed ok enough.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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RebelChris
Reged: 12/01/06
Loc: WY
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Let me first say that I am completely shocked by this. I am simply stunned while I sit here reading all these accounts. I just can't fathom coming to this realization. Especially after all of these years.
I would like to ask a question though, that I feel is worth asking. What is going to be done to these fake pieces to ensure they don't spread even further and continue to hurt the community/hobby?
I know this probably can't be answered fully at this time. But I think it's important that the people who were affected by this the most, stay vigilant in making sure these don't continue to rip people off.
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On the lookout for Rebel Commando pre-production and other interesting items.
And if you have want to get rid of your Jar-Jar pre-production shoot me a PM
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tapuvae
Reged: 12/20/03
Loc: us
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On a related note, did anything ever come of the Gary Pederson (sp?) debacle. Same MO as I recall- known, trusted, experience with certain production skills...
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AJ_van_Zelst
Reged: 02/01/04
Loc: The Netherlands
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RebelChris wrote:
I would like to ask a question though, that I feel is worth asking. What is going to be done to these fake pieces to ensure they don't spread even further and continue to hurt the community/hobby?
Seeing this atleast should be a civil matter and very likely criminal, those pieces have to stay like they are. If it stays a civil matter, those items in all probability have to go back to Scott. Perhaps the only way of preventing that is with the help of Kenner/Hasbro. Seeing they own the copyright on the true figures. Else I probably see no other way of preventing these items to go back to Scott if he gives the money back. Only if it will become a criminal case the figures can be legaly destroyed, but you need a court rulling on that (atleast here in the Netherlands).
-Alex
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WTB: Ewoks cartoon prototypes: firstshots, ep's, toy fair (incl. Blue Harvest), esp. * Logray *
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Joshua_A
Reged: 05/29/08
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Firstly...is this samseventy we are talking about? If it is..hasn't his named popped up in the watchout a few times now.
I am surpised so many knowledgable collectors were stung. Especially after the Billy Boy scenario. And especially after reading Ron's breakdown of the situation and some of the rules placed by Scott when making a purchase from him.
Sorry to hear about this peoples. And thanks for the heads up.
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Always looking for Dengar related items 
U Grade FAQ
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JohnA
Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
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JohnA wrote:
I even sent Derby pics recently and he even said it "looked" legit in pics. I swore it was good until side by sides were done with another HC with a rock solid history. Then the it was clear that the color was off, the details were off, the part lines were off, etc.
I just need to make this very clear. Now that people know what to look for it's pretty easy to tell on these. The carbalon looked good at first but in person those working on identifying these (ChrisG and Tom Derby doing the bulk of this research) can ID these and even with high res pics. The real trick was knowing what to look for. The Carbalon was by far the closest in color but enough have been compared that even those can be ID'd now. If others have pieces that trace back to Scott that they question please join the group CJ mentioned and get either some pics or the pieces over to Chris and Tom.
John
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and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character
-Shai Hulud
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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Joshua_A wrote:
Firstly...is this samseventy we are talking about? If it is..hasn't his named popped up in the watchout a few times now.
I am surpised so many knowledgable collectors were stung. Especially after the Billy Boy scenario. And especially after reading Ron's breakdown of the situation and some of the rules placed by Scott when making a purchase from him.
Sorry to hear about this peoples. And thanks for the heads up.
Ever heard of an "information cascade" or an "error cascade"?
Here's a good definition, cribbed from the web:
"In medical jargon, an “error cascade” is something very specific: a series of escalating errors in diagnosis or treatment, each one amplifying the effect of the previous one... There’s a slightly different term, information cascade, which is used to describe the propagation of beliefs and attitudes through crowd psychology. Information cascades occur because humans are social animals and tend to follow the behavior of those around them."
There was a little of that going on. Once Scott was established as a good seller, who had good stuff, it was easy for others to buy this stuff without suspicion. It helped that long-time collectors with good names were helping Scott to broker stuff.
And, as John says, some of the stuff looks pretty decent.
Another thing: Some of these are actually larger than production. So whoever made them figured out a way to enlarge the molds. Chris G. discovered a way to do this, so it's not far-fetched. And enlarged molds would explain some of the bulbous, blown-out details visible on these pieces.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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Shane Turgeon
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: Edmonton, Alberta
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Joshua_A wrote:
Firstly...is this samseventy we are talking about? If it is..hasn't his named popped up in the watchout a few times now.
Totally different person. That's Scott MacDonald. This is Scott McWilliams. His RS ID was smcwillaims
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Shane Turgeon
Author: The Force in the Flesh
www.theforceintheflesh.com
www.tattoosandtoys.com
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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AJ_van_Zelst wrote:
RebelChris wrote:
I would like to ask a question though, that I feel is worth asking. What is going to be done to these fake pieces to ensure they don't spread even further and continue to hurt the community/hobby?
Seeing this atleast should be a civil matter and very likely criminal, those pieces have to stay like they are. If it stays a civil matter, those items in all probability have to go back to Scott. Perhaps the only way of preventing that is with the help of Kenner/Hasbro. Seeing they own the copyright on the true figures. Else I probably see no other way of preventing these items to go back to Scott if he gives the money back. Only if it will become a criminal case the figures can be legaly destroyed, but you need a court rulling on that (atleast here in the Netherlands).
-Alex
I'm no legal expert, but my guess is that proving anything here is going to be pretty hard.
All we know for sure is that a bunch of bogus-looking figures trace back to one guy.
At least he's refunded some folks. Hopefully he'll refund the others.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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Robbygnz
Reged: 06/26/10
Loc: Austin, Texas
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DarthBerizing wrote:
To Broc and JohnA (so far) I can't tell you how bad I feel. I'm gutted just reading it, let alone living it.
Caveating with "Innocent until proven guilty" I'll say this:
Florida Statute of Limitations is as follows:
Fraud 4 years
Oral Contract 4 years
Writen Contract 5 years
Contract could be interepreted as the contract to deliver specific goods. His delivery of a fake should therefore deem the contract as unfulfilled.
I'd call an attorney and take a legal action if this is concretly proven to be fake. Ironically (despite both your well deserved places in the hobby) contact CIB to get a 3rd party on record to validate the claim.
Good luck though, nobody should be out the cash except the seller if this turns out to be true.
im not a high end collector, but this seems like the right course of action for any failure to deliver goods. This is way outside of the jurisdiction of a small claims court. Really hope this gets sorted. best of luck.
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Trade forum Feedback|Know the dangers of U grading]
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Leif_G
Reged: 02/01/06
Loc: BC, Canada
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Jarrod_Zutton79 wrote:
This whole situation is terrible. I am sorry for everyone who is involved. John, I think that the way that you and others are refunding each other and making right between one another is very commendable.
Quoted for truth. I couldn't say it better.
It seems to me though that Scott has taken action to keep people from determining that they purchased fakes, by insisting on silence. Particularly, if he indeed asked buyers to not discuss the acquisition with certain people. That's pretty damning, and his reaction even more so.
I feel so terrible for you people whose trust has been broken in this way, by someone you considered a friend.
Leif
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Leif's Trade Feedback
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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While there will undoubtedly be many people affected beyond a core known group right now, it's important for people not to freak out about pieces they may own.
First, if you know the provenance of the piece(s) you own and they're solid and don't trace back to Scott then you are most likely fine. Although I've been surprised by the chain of ownership of some pieces floating around the hobby as it seems that some can't find stable homes. Generally people seem to ask where pieces originated or have been, but there are times when people don't release this info.
Secondly, right now this seems to apply only to hardcopies but I have seen wax "sculpings" which seemed suspect, but as far as I know those weren't among the pieces sold.
Now it seems that any piece could be suspect if the history leads back to Scott. I do know that there are legitimate things that were sold (or still owned) but that was usually the case of items that were sold by known dealers or collectors or definitely originated from them. The problem is potential copies of good pieces being introduced into the marketplace. I know of one case for sure where an item was sold based on a photo, but what was sent was a copy of that item and it did not match the original.
The pieces that I've seen firsthand were all ESB-era "hardcopy" figures although this issue goes into the other vintage SW lines as well. What struck me first was the low quality of the pieces and the poor attempt at paint jobs. There were both painted and unpainted "hardcopies" sold, often times of the same character and sometimes multiples of the same character.
In the attempts to make these look legitimate, attempts were made to replicate the color and consistency of known hardcopy casting materials. You'll see this mentioned a lot here but there is the tan "Carbalon" material and the green "Dynacast" material. The other, main, way to make the pieces look legitimate was to make them larger than production figures. When Kenner created their figures they designed and sculpted them to account for 3% shrinkage during the injection-molding process. In my experience I've found it to be around 3%-5%, usually on the limbs which were made of softer vinyl than the torso which was made of harder plastic like ABS.
At any rate, a hardcopy is a near exact copy of the original sculpting and retains all of those details. There are sculpted details on figures that were too light to be transferred to the steel production molds therefore you can find details on hardcopies that are either murky, altered, or sometimes just gone. Also it's important to note that moldmakers would hand-tweak the molds which accounts for all kinds of variations, but variations that are not present back at the sculpting stage.
So when one of these bad "hardcopies" was generally presented, the immediate signals seemed alright (color and size) but what wasn't really scrutinized enough were the similarities to production figures or the inconsistent sizing.
After some research I saw that it was rather simple to enlarge a silicone mold which meant that anything could be cast and scaled up a bit. However, maintaining a consistent scale during this process was another matter completely and some of the pieces I've examined had disproportionate features - large feet, mis-shapen limbs, etc... but it wasn't always immediately apparent especially for someone not on the lookout for it.
Then there are the parting lines themselves. The parting line is the division between both halves of a mold. Real hardcopies have parting lines from the silicone mold that they were made from, which itself was made from the original sculpting. Since one half of the mold is literally poured onto the other half, the part is encased in silicone and every feature is captured. The parting line is generally not something grossly oversized or prominent, however on many authentic parts that have turned up they were literally bad castings so they may have flaws in the parting lines. But the parting lines of an authentic hardcopy are not always strictly followed on a production figure so by comparing a known original to a suspect piece, the shape of the parting line is an important detail to scrutinize.
Now for production figures the 2 mold halves are cut separately into steel and then matched in the mold frame. The entire mold opens and closes during the injection molding process so any little mis-alignment of the halves can be seen on a production piece. You can check this for yourself by looking at random production figures and noting that some features may not line up. Say a belt is shifted at the side of the torso or a pocket on an arm (which crossed the parting line) has shifted on one side. You don't need to look at a lot of figures before you notice this fact. And once you realize that this offset is absolutely not possible on an authentic hardcopy then you are better positioned to spot a piece that has been simply cast from an injection-molded plastic production figure.
Some other obvious tells are seeing remnants of a filled-in hexagonal foot peg holes or evidence of removed copyright dates.
You'd be surprised at the differences you can see when you have a high-res photo and some insight into what pieces should look like. Also, there's no substitute for magnification and a strong light.
In the end provenance is critical, but a piece should be able to stand on its own and it's that where these are falling apart.
-chris
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The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
Edited by ChrisGeorgoulias (09/21/10 11:58 PM)
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Bantha5
Reged: 11/05/00
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"One thing to think about here, he works with wax and plastic resins at his job making custom ear pieces. hmmmmm. That mixed with fake prototypes coming from him. While it doesn't proove anything, it's an interesting combo."
JosephY, I was thinking the same thing even before I got to your post. The custom ear piece business is similar to the line of work I'm in. He would have access to the same tools and techniques I do.
The only problem is access to the correct materials, which is difficult, but not impossible. I'd be lying if I said I didn't work out in my head how to go about making a passable fake Hardcopy. I believe I have worked out everything from slightly enlarging the sculpt to sourcing the pins and materials. All it would take to move them would a good story, a credible rep and bad intentions.
Anyway, From who is involved to how long it went on, it is a very surprising story all the way around. I hope those who have been affected by this see positive results in the end. Ryan
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Leif_G
Reged: 02/01/06
Loc: BC, Canada
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Ron - I normally don't make a habit of quoting entire posts. But I wanted to say that I found your post extremely informative, and its certainly worth quoting in full.
Leif
ronsalvatore wrote:
Some of the alleged fakes that I've seen are so poor that I'm surprised this didn't break sooner.
Some lessons to be learned here:
1) When a seller asks you to keep a transaction completely secret, especially from certain people, it might be good to question his motives.
2) When an individual suddenly claims to own 200 hardcopies, virtually none of which trace back to verifiable sources, regard it as a red flag.
3) Know where your stuff comes from! Most legit vintage hardcopies can be traced back to one of the following sources:
The Earth
Steve Denny
Intergalactic
Tom Neiheisel
Kim Simmons
One of Ed A's various leads
There are a lot of exceptions, of course, but those have been the major sources.
4) Multiple, complete hardcopies of the same character almost never turn up, especially for pre-ROTJ figures -- and especially not from the same source at the same time. If a seller offers you two Death Squad Commanders, it's a huge red flag. (It's even more of a red flag if those multiple copies are all in different materials).
5) Kenner only painted nice, nearly flawless hardcopies. No painted hardcopy I've ever seen has air bubbles, visible casting flaws, etc.
6) Most of the "unfinished" and/or random hardcopy parts out there came from contacts associated with the old Kenner model shop. Many of them were Ed's contacts. The other sources mostly had complete (and usually painted) hardcopies. If someone offers you random or flaw-ridden parts that cannot be traced back to a good source, regard it as a red flag. The great majority of hardcopies that made it out of Kenner were complete.
7) Hardcopies always, always have better detail than production figures. It's finer, tighter, etc. If the details on something you're looking at are bulbous or muddy, question it.
8) A protomolded figure should not have air bubbles in it. It's injection-molded plastic!
9) As far as I know, legit protomolded parts have not turned up in any quantity. Protomolded figures are virtually always complete, and they're usually fully painted. If someone offers you a protomolded head or arm -- red flag.
This whole thing is going to hit the hobby like one big growing pain.
The alleged culprits will claim they're being taken down unfairly, due to jealousy or "politics" or whatever. It's up to each of you to decide if you believe that.
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Leif's Trade Feedback
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Jason_West
Reged: 03/08/02
Loc: Northern Virginia
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Unfortunately, the picture I have of the hardcopy jawa from CV has been watermarked with Hollywood Heroes. I did this to protect the broker of the figure. With respect to Jordan, I will not post this. Of course, I will consider this a fake. Scott sold some "prototypes" back in July 2004. A first shot vc jawa had been listed. I am 90% sure who the figure had been sold to, but will keep his name out of it. Personally speaking, I will consider that a fake to. If province is everything, then I will (personal opinion) consider all of his prototypes fakes. This might seem like I am freaking out, since I had been affected by this sham, but I think a justified stand against fakes is one I will be happy to take.
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Jason West
Collection and Blog: MADBROWNZ
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Joshua_A
Reged: 05/29/08
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ronsalvatore wrote:
Joshua_A wrote:
Firstly...is this samseventy we are talking about? If it is..hasn't his named popped up in the watchout a few times now.
I am surpised so many knowledgable collectors were stung. Especially after the Billy Boy scenario. And especially after reading Ron's breakdown of the situation and some of the rules placed by Scott when making a purchase from him.
Sorry to hear about this peoples. And thanks for the heads up.
Ever heard of an "information cascade" or an "error cascade"?
Here's a good definition, cribbed from the web:
"In medical jargon, an “error cascade” is something very specific: a series of escalating errors in diagnosis or treatment, each one amplifying the effect of the previous one... There’s a slightly different term, information cascade, which is used to describe the propagation of beliefs and attitudes through crowd psychology. Information cascades occur because humans are social animals and tend to follow the behavior of those around them."
There was a little of that going on. Once Scott was established as a good seller, who had good stuff, it was easy for others to buy this stuff without suspicion. It helped that long-time collectors with good names were helping Scott to broker stuff.
And, as John says, some of the stuff looks pretty decent.
Another thing: Some of these are actually larger than production. So whoever made them figured out a way to enlarge the molds. Chris G. discovered a way to do this, so it's not far-fetched. And enlarged molds would explain some of the bulbous, blown-out details visible on these pieces.
I can see how that could of happened here. I guess I am just a little amazed it took the discovery of the fakes to start tracing their back history a little more in depth. Or if it was already in question, why they were purchased in the first place?
AND thanks for clearing that up Shane. I didn't have time to run a search before I ran out the door this morning.
Again. Sounds like a [censored] situation to be apart of and I admire the way you guys are going about the refunds.
I will shut up now and let the people involved sort through this mess.
Best of luck with it.
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Always looking for Dengar related items
U Grade FAQ
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Ian_C
Reged: 12/23/01
Loc: Southern Ontario, Canada
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Wow guys,
Add me to the list of guys who feels truly bad for everyone taken by this scam.
What's scary to me is that this is truly the first time I can recall some of the big name players in this hobby getting taken - and it happened to several of them. Some guys I consider friends, and others I just know from board activity, but in any case, guys like John, Broc, CJ, Chris, Bill, Ron, Baldy, and Joe are among the people I truly look up to as authorities. I have learned a lot about this hobby, and most of it has come from these guys, with the acceptance that they still know a TON more than I do. Knowing a good number of this group was taken has floored me.
I hope you are all able to recover whatever money has been lost on this scam, and that if Scott did this knowingly, that he is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
One bright spot today though guys.
This was a clever scam that went on for years apparently, and was well covered by those responsible. However, it shows, once again, the strength and integrity of those affected that not only have they gone above and beyond in outing the scam, but they are united in bringing forward all evidence to educate the community, with most if not all willing to help identify any trouble pieces in other people's collections. And this doesn't even include the honorable act of reimbursing all who they unknowingly passed them forward to themselves.
Our group of vintage caretakers needs to be recognized for their work in this, and we ALL owe them a huge thank you for their work.
Ian
Edited by Ian_C (09/21/10 10:03 PM)
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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Ian_C wrote:
Wow guys,
What's scary to me is that this is truly the first time I can recall some of the big name players in this hobby getting taken - and it happened to several of them. Some guys I consider friends, and others I just know from board activity, but in any case, guys like John, Broc, CJ, Chris, Bill, Ron, Baldy, and Joe are among the people I truly look up to as authorities.
I didn't buy any of these. I had never even seen one until very recently.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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Ian_C
Reged: 12/23/01
Loc: Southern Ontario, Canada
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ronsalvatore wrote:
Ian_C wrote:
Wow guys,
What's scary to me is that this is truly the first time I can recall some of the big name players in this hobby getting taken - and it happened to several of them. Some guys I consider friends, and others I just know from board activity, but in any case, guys like John, Broc, CJ, Chris, Bill, Ron, Baldy, and Joe are among the people I truly look up to as authorities.
I didn't buy any of these. I had never even seen one until very recently.
Sorry Ron for the misunderstanding,
I meant you are the guys I look up to as authorities, along with others, and that some of you were taken. The names I mentioned were generally those of you who have either been affected directly, or have gone above and beyond in this thread with information. I didn't mean to imply that everyone I mentioned here fell for the scam. Apologies.
Ian
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Leif_G
Reged: 02/01/06
Loc: BC, Canada
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_Lee_ wrote:
...after seeing the amount of prototypes being slabbed by AFA in the last few years,whats to say some of these fakes havent been passed as original by AFA/CIB themselves.I am of the opinion that you guys have more knowledge than all of those guys,and would take your opinion over a legit piece any day of the week...
FYI, many of the people here you refer to, turn to Tom Derby at times for his expert opinion, and he owns CIB. Tom's got a far better reputation among die hard collectors than you give him credit for in that post. In fact, his refusal to authenticate certain items has contributed to certain hobby criminals being found out. Tom's not perfect, but there's no question in my mind that he has taken his authentication services very seriously, which has often led to difficulties because people get miffed when items can't be positively authenticated.
Sorry, I don't mean to come off snarky. But I don't think he deserves to have his expertise questioned in this way. In fact, no suprise to me, it seems he's been very helpful in this case as well.
Leif
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Leif's Trade Feedback
Edited by Leif_G (09/21/10 10:52 PM)
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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Ian_C wrote:
ronsalvatore wrote:
Ian_C wrote:
Wow guys,
What's scary to me is that this is truly the first time I can recall some of the big name players in this hobby getting taken - and it happened to several of them. Some guys I consider friends, and others I just know from board activity, but in any case, guys like John, Broc, CJ, Chris, Bill, Ron, Baldy, and Joe are among the people I truly look up to as authorities.
I didn't buy any of these. I had never even seen one until very recently.
Sorry Ron for the misunderstanding,
I meant you are the guys I look up to as authorities, along with others, and that some of you were taken. The names I mentioned were generally those of you who have either been affected directly, or have gone above and beyond in this thread with information. I didn't mean to imply that everyone I mentioned here fell for the scam. Apologies.
Ian
No worries.
The alleged scam was mostly overlooked because no one rang the alarm. Once collectors started communicating with each other and sweating the details, it became obvious. Chris and Tom have really done the most to really investigate these things.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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Kaneda_01
Reged: 12/31/03
Loc: San Antonio
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Sorry to hear this has occurred and impacted so many members of this forum. I truly hope that this scum is held accountable for his wrong doing... and those affected pursue criminal and civil action.
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::: For sale :: feedback :
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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I think this one single photo speaks volumes. It also helps to show that buying and trying to analyze from a regular photo can be difficult.
Under normal lighting conditions, and with a fairly low-res photo, these items all look basically the same. However, when you shine a black light onto the group you get an entirely different view.
The top row are all legitimate, unpainted Carbalon pieces from various sources purchased over a span of years. The bottom row is a leg off of each different unpainted figure that I've received thus far to examine which originated from Scott. As you can see, once you see things within the context of a large group and also compare them to several legitimate pieces the differences are apparent.
I touched on the differences in the casting quality earlier, but now you can see something which is much harder to replicate. Age and period material. I believe that the formulas for Carbalon and Dynacast were changed over the years at least some type of Dynacast is still commercially available. I'm not sure what the actual material of these fakes is, but it's not the same upon close examination with the naked eye as well as feel. It's the black light though that really makes it apparent.
Authentic Dynacast pieces glow green while the Carbalon is sort of a neon mustard color with rust-colored parting lines. The fakes are basically flat and gray. All I did was to snap a normal photo using spotlights then went pitch-black in the room and took a second photo using only a black light source.
So while all of the physical flaws and irregularities in the castings alone are enough to form an opinion , the black light further shows the differences between authentic and fake.
Keep in mind that the authentic samples are from both SW and ESB yet they all have a similar look under the black light.
-chris
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The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
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tapuvae
Reged: 12/20/03
Loc: us
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Any reason the parting lines on legit pieces would be a different color under a black light?
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Ross_C
Reged: 02/28/07
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ChrisGeorgoulias wrote:
I think this one single photo speaks volumes. It also helps to show that buying and trying to analyze from a regular photo can be difficult.
Under normal lighting conditions, and with a fairly low-res photo, these items all look basically the same. However, when you shine a black light onto the group you get an entirely different view.
The top row are all legitimate, unpainted Carbalon pieces from various sources purchased over a span of years. The bottom row is a leg off of each different unpainted figure that I've received thus far to examine which originated from Scott. As you can see, once you see things within the context of a large group and also compare them to several legitimate pieces the differences are apparent.
I touched on the differences in the casting quality earlier, but now you can see something which is much harder to replicate. Age and period material. I believe that the formulas for Carbalon and Dynacast were changed over the years at least some type of Dynacast is still commercially available. I'm not sure what the actual material of these fakes is, but it's not the same upon close examination with the naked eye as well as feel. It's the black light though that really makes it apparent.
Authentic Dynacast pieces glow green while the Carbalon is sort of a neon mustard color with rust-colored parting lines. The fakes are basically flat and gray. All I did was to snap a normal photo using spotlights then went pitch-black in the room and took a second photo using only a black light source.
So while all of the physical flaws and irregularities in the castings alone are enough to form an opinion , the black light further shows the differences between authentic and fake.
Keep in mind that the authentic samples are from both SW and ESB yet they all have a similar look under the black light.
-chris
Awesome, Chris G is the Hard Copy Whisperer. I also can't get ZZ top Legs out of my head.
Looks clear as day, and black light to me now! But what are all those speckles on the table...ewww.
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I feel a great disturbance in the Hobby, as if thousands of MOCs suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced in acrylic.
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Bobafettguy
Reged: 12/19/05
Loc: CA.
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Scott McWilliams took my money with a smile. I bought original painted hard copies of Han Hoth and a Painted Biker Scout for a total of $7600 plus a couple of nice shirts from my place of work for him. People say Scott is known for his short replies on emails but when you get him on the phone he will talk your ear off. Not that it was a bad thing at the time listening to his stories of the process of how Hardcopies were made and all the other toy lines he collects. Not to mention his $50,000 turtle and his love for exotic rare animals. He was so very friendly on the phone. He even invited me to his house.
He told me the Biker Scout was the one from theswca.com. Ron mentioned about that no one would have thought somebody would be making these from scratch. I can tell you it never crossed my mind. The two things I looked for when I got the Hardcopies were the detail ( it was more detailed) and the size, they were larger than the production figures.
Here is an email from Scott : quote " At this point I am not looking to trade. I want to scale back . I am also not at a point that I want others to know I am selling any of my hard copies. Last time I sold some pieces I got two hunderd e-mails in two days time. If I sell to you all pieces need to be kept private and conf. If I sell you the biker scout it will make John A. mad. Politics in this hobbie are brutal. Some one is always going to be upset. Its not the money I am just tired after 32 years of collecting. Scott " end quote.
Scott was a collector at age 10? Ok maybe.
Thanks to Tom Derby looking out for me, I sent the pieces to him to be looked at. Chris G. also looked at them , thanks Chris. One of my main regrets is I didn't send them to him sooner.
I had a chance 10 years ago to buy hard copies but I had my hands in other SW cookie jars. If I had a real one on hand I might have noticed a problem. Last month I called and talked to Scott on the phone twice on the same day. The first was to tell him there was a problem with my hardcopies and something needed to be done. He told me he was going to call Tom and to call him back day after next. I called him back later to give him Tom's number. He answered and took the number. The day after next came, no answer, and no answer, He won't answer. That was over a month ago now. Since he won't even answer my emails, I sent him certifed letters saying I want my $7600 back. He signed for one of the letters on Sept 2nd. So much for "call me back the day after next", right Scott?
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Marty - yub yub
Edited by Bobafettguy (09/22/10 02:53 AM)
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HWR
Reged: 10/05/01
Loc: Vejle, Denmark
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I'm really shocked and sad to hear about this scam and how much money so many collectors have lost.
JohnA wrote:
Sadly, because many of us do have good names we have to take care of friends. For example, Broc bought a piece from Scott and I bought from him and JoeY bought from me. It was proven fake a few days ago. I am refunding Joe, and Broc me. None of us think it is fair to stick somebody with a fake so, sadly, the buck is stopping at whomever purchased from Scott and hoping he will refund them. This does not seem to be the case anymore though.
I also let go one of mine in trade. That was also priven fake and now I have to try make good on that trade and I get stuck with the fake piece unless Scott refunds me. It's a mess. At least this is the way some of us are dealing. Not sure if it is the law but some of us want to make sure people are taken care of who bought/traded from/with us.
John
This says a lot about you guys. This is trully a proof friendship and honor, I wish more people would act and react that way. I'm glad that the top collectors are decent people like you.
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Henrik Wulff Rasmussen
Variations Wanted (Updated 05-31-08)
Edited by HWR (09/22/10 03:52 AM)
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gus
Reged: 11/14/01
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Scott really should come forward and respond to what's been said. His lack of response is not helping his case.
Gus
Edited by gus (09/22/10 03:30 AM)
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Bjamin_S
Reged: 05/13/01
Loc: The home of backwards spinning...
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tapuvae wrote:
Any reason the parting lines on legit pieces would be a different color under a black light?
That'd be where they've been sanded I suspect.
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HFC premiers 2008.
www.swproofcards.com
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phase_3
Reged: 08/09/02
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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This is really horrible, to say the least.
I feel bad for everyone who has been ripped off by this guy.
Is there a chance that legal action can be instigated?
Surely there must be some way of recovering your money?
All the best,
Rob.
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I'm after C-9 offerless, unpunched ESB carded figures!
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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Bjamin_S wrote:
tapuvae wrote:
Any reason the parting lines on legit pieces would be a different color under a black light?
That'd be where they've been sanded I suspect.
Actually, it's not the sanding. It appears to be remnants of mold-release agent or the age of that material. As you can see, the Han Bespin legs are not sanded. Whatever it is, it's not the same on the parting line surfaces I observed on Scott's pieces and there are sanded parting lines all over on many of them. Some are not sanded.
Here's a better example of how the parting lines differ under black light. Specifically here I show a sanded surface on the bad Luke Bespin leg and how it compares to a lightly sanded Blue Snaggletooth and a Han Bespin with no sanding.
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The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
Edited by ChrisGeorgoulias (09/22/10 06:38 AM)
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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gus wrote:
Scott really should come forward and respond to what's been said. His lack of response is not helping his case.
Gus
Although it's not really different than him ducking out of Celebration V (held in his own home town) days early after people started questioning him and the pieces he was consigning with Hollywood Heroes.
Again, actions speak volumes.
-chris
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The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
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ZAC_THE_STAR_WARS_MAC
Reged: 07/09/02
Loc: Cincinnati
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Bill_Wills wrote:
Todd - I've wondered about the FBI as well. I've heard it takes a large amount of money before it will attract their attention, but I've heard some pretty big numbers thrown around. The problem is who knows how long it will take to determine the scope of the damage? And it's my understanding that there are international folks who were victimized as well which just adds to the complexity. At this point, I'm certain *lots* of evidence has been destroyed...
Sounds to me like the authorities would be interested. I am guessing he did not claim any of this income on tax's either. So if you got 3 or 4 people on here for a couple thousand I am guessing we are talking well over $10,000 and the IRS would like a phone call also.
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The things you own end up owning you
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Todd_Hudson
Reged: 02/15/03
Loc: Maui HI
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ZAC_THE_STAR_WARS_MAC wrote:
Bill_Wills wrote:
Todd - I've wondered about the FBI as well. I've heard it takes a large amount of money before it will attract their attention, but I've heard some pretty big numbers thrown around. The problem is who knows how long it will take to determine the scope of the damage? And it's my understanding that there are international folks who were victimized as well which just adds to the complexity. At this point, I'm certain *lots* of evidence has been destroyed...
Sounds to me like the authorities would be interested. I am guessing he did not claim any of this income on tax's either. So if you got 3 or 4 people on here for a couple thousand I am guessing we are talking well over $10,000 and the IRS would like a phone call also.
Would the IRS being involved unless it was proven that he actually made the items? I mean you can buy and sell items like ebay if its not a business...of course if they could prove he made the pieces then it would make sense that they could get him for tax evasion.
-Todd-
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"Now if your stealing money from your grandma and donating plasma to complete your Cheif Chirpa focus bootleg set then thats no fun and should probably be avoided."
http://WWW.TODDONMAUI.COM
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cfawcett
Reged: 11/06/00
Loc: North Carolina
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Here's some pics of mine. Some points to notice:
1. Holster not hollowed out on one piece.
2. The cowl areas do not match between the two and one of them is not like any production or hardcopy ever seen.
3. Lots of air bubbles.
4. Terrible details on the legs, especially the back of the painted one.
5. Paint job is very sloppy.
6. Right hand has the odd "bubble finger" variation only seen in production toys, proving this was cast off a production part.
7. Fails the blacklight test (one of the pieces in Chris' post above is one of the legs off my figure).
Cj
  
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WTB: First Shot Warok, Palitoy ESB Han Hoth, PBP Han Hoth (ESB & ROTJ)
Vintage Toy Archive: http://www.12back.com
Edited by cfawcett (09/22/10 08:01 AM)
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Dave_Macleod
Reged: 07/19/03
Loc: Australia
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Well the cat's out of the bag now.
Since hearing about this a few weeks ago, I had been wondering when it would be made public.
It's terrible and unfortunatly this will tarnish the hobby for years.
When I was told about the sold faked hardcopys I thought it was only a hand full of collectors affected with fake accessories , but the numbers affected and items faked seem vast and over such a period?
DO all the larger POTF coins lead back to mcwilliams too?
I truly hope all are able to get their money back.
-Dave
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WTB: -KENNER:"SO" Vader Tie(mib)-GLASSLITE:Nave Imperial(mib)-POTF COINS:Luke-Tauntaun, Greedo,
Leia-Boushh, Sail Skiff, Tusken Raider.-LILY LEDY:12" Vader & Jawa (mib)
Edited by Dave_Macleod (09/23/10 05:31 AM)
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Daniel_Bornheim
Reged: 08/16/06
Loc: Sweden
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Here´s my at-at commander head, probably a fake to, got lots of air bubbles and also leads back to Mcwilliams.
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LF: At-At driver and At-At Commander pre-production items.
Edited by Daniel_Bornheim (09/22/10 08:31 AM)
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ZAC_THE_STAR_WARS_MAC
Reged: 07/09/02
Loc: Cincinnati
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Todd_Hudson wrote:
ZAC_THE_STAR_WARS_MAC wrote:
Bill_Wills wrote:
Todd - I've wondered about the FBI as well. I've heard it takes a large amount of money before it will attract their attention, but I've heard some pretty big numbers thrown around. The problem is who knows how long it will take to determine the scope of the damage? And it's my understanding that there are international folks who were victimized as well which just adds to the complexity. At this point, I'm certain *lots* of evidence has been destroyed...
Sounds to me like the authorities would be interested. I am guessing he did not claim any of this income on tax's either. So if you got 3 or 4 people on here for a couple thousand I am guessing we are talking well over $10,000 and the IRS would like a phone call also.
Would the IRS being involved unless it was proven that he actually made the items? I mean you can buy and sell items like ebay if its not a business...of course if they could prove he made the pieces then it would make sense that they could get him for tax evasion.
-Todd-
I meant to say $100,000. You have to claim that. The general rule is that all
income is subject to tax. The IRS defines income as financial gain derived from work or labor. Income may be earned or unearned; earned income comes from services performed while examples of unearned income may be royalties from artistic works or rental income. When you make income the government taxes you by a percentage based on the amount of your income, and other factors. How does this work? First and foremost learn to be an excellent, diligent record-keeper. Keep every receipt and invoice for all purchases. I doubt he did this so he would already have 1 strike against him. Hobby expenses are deductible up to the amount of hobby income reported on the tax return. Hobby income is entered on line 21 of IRS Form 1040; the category is Other Income. But this income may be offset by your expenses. Your hobby expenses are deducted on Form 1040 Schedule A on line 22. I doubt he had much expenses to off set these huge gains.
In other words he would have owed money on this. I made a small mistake with my wife's unemployment a couple years ago and they came after that $200 like pitbulls. We have people on here throwing out big numbers. It is always best to go ahead and declare your extra income; if the IRS finds out about it anyway, you may incur penalties for paying insufficient tax in addition to the extra tax you may owe. If he dose not offer full refunds just tell him your going to make a phone call and report him. If this was happening over several years which from reading this thread I gather it was it is also fraud along with tax evasion and he is looking at a min 5 years.The failure to file a federal tax return is a misdemeanor, but a consistent pattern of failure to file for several years will constitute evidence that these failures were part of a scheme to avoid the payment of taxes. If this pattern is established, the violator may be charged with a felony under section 7201 of the INTERNAL REVENUE CODE. Really if i was one of the people that was ripped off I would not give him the chance to refund I would file a report with my local police then state then make the call to the IRS with as many other collectors names and $ spent as I could gather.
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The things you own end up owning you
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TheTuskenRaider
Reged: 06/20/10
Loc: Jundland Wastes.
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This is a terrible situation to say the least. I have to say that I feel utterly terrible for all of the collectors here who have been duped by this guys fake prototypes. Its a sad sad day when these situations come about... .
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Mos Eisley a wretched hive of scum and villainy.
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acedecade75
Reged: 07/06/02
Loc: USA
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Scott got me for $5000 on a bad Admiral Screed hardcopy and Morag staff. It think it was 2008 when I got these from him. It'sreally dissapointing. I've gotten some other stuf from him(non hardcopies) that turned out ok. I didn't think he was this desperate for money. I believe he's an ear doctor.
I have tried contacting him ,and of course, he is not responding. I hope we have more luck as group or potentialy with legal action.
I'll try to get some pictures of the fake pieces uploaded later today.
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KevinA
Reged: 08/29/05
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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I just kind of realized something. My first response was: Oh man, these guys are out thousands of dollars. And I feel for you guys on that.
I'm kind of putting myself in your shoes now and also realize it is a double whammy. You are out thousands of dollars and you just lost something(s) that was probably up there as the pride and glory in your collections.
Losing the money sucks, but the emotional realization of what you really have in your collections must really sting. What a terrible situation
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acedecade75
Reged: 07/06/02
Loc: USA
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You are right. Personaly, I would rather have an authentic Admiral Screed and Morag staff as opposed to the $5000. Though at this point, I guess the focus has to be on seeking restitution from Scott, identifying all the fake pieces, and hopefully making sure that this type of an incident does not happen again. But, collecting will continue. I still love the unproduced pieces.
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JohnA
Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
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KevinA wrote:
Losing the money sucks, but the emotional realization of what you really have in your collections must really sting. What a terrible situation
How about the fact that I sold pieces I liked to fund these and now I'll have to sell pieces I like to pay some people back who later bought or traded with me. I've just lost twice. It's not a nice place to be in.
John
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and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character
-Shai Hulud
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_Darren_
Reged: 01/27/03
Loc: UK
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Horrendous,horrible and downright deplorable!!!
I hate to be a cynic(although anybody who knows me would say the opposite)but the amounts of money we are talking about here will decimate the proto/hardcopy market forever...Most new(ish)collectors won't dare go near this very exclusive part of the hobby,now and i'm sure many who got duped will forever have a bad taste(and empty wallet)
Its the sheer cost and networking many of you had to do jumping through hoops and making contacts just to be in a "queue" that made eventually scoring one so rewarding....heck I bet the cost was nearly secondary.....
And then to find out its fake!!!
I can't imagine the disappointment!!!Or ANGER!!!
If Scott's not on his way to Mexico i'm sure,with the amounts we are talking about,you guys should co-ordinate some sort of legal case,or trip to his home demanding compensation and/or full refunds!!!
I mean,its BillyBoy all over again.....
You know having nearly completed my production run,i was considering where to go next in the hobby.....
Thankfully this came to light before chose Proto's
Best of luck to all(that were conned)in this mess...I hope(although i doubt)for a positive outcome!!
Darren.
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Iam the artist formerly known as Darth Fusion
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Youthberg
Reged: 02/02/05
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
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KevinA wrote:
I just kind of realized something. My first response was: Oh man, these guys are out thousands of dollars. And I feel for you guys on that.
I'm kind of putting myself in your shoes now and also realize it is a double whammy. You are out thousands of dollars and you just lost something(s) that was probably up there as the pride and glory in your collections.
Losing the money sucks, but the emotional realization of what you really have in your collections must really sting. What a terrible situation
My thoughts too, I really feel for you guys
A little bit OT maybe, but are any of these fake prototypes featured in Gus & Duncan's prototype book? I'm asking since I guess that it was printed before anyone knew about this mess?
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SSWC | 2-1B
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MartijnEmmelot
Reged: 08/13/02
Loc: the Netherlands
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_Darren_ wrote:
I mean,its BillyBoy all over again.....
It is more like Bill Rodgers multiplied with Pablo Artesi ... this is huge!
Truly feel bad sad and mad for all involved! Hope everybody gets what they deserve (including Scott)
~Martijn
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www.starswar.eu
Yeah,you can definetly tell they are polish.No one else would ruin star wars figures with those colors.
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Christian
Reged: 04/19/02
Loc: Somerset, UK
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FWIW I sincerely hope that Scott does repair at least the financial damage he's allegedly caused for the sake of those who have lost out. However, a scam of this scale 'could' lead to the kind of thing that Tom was referring to within the vintage TF world in his tome of a post a few days ago: irreparable damage with long lasting consequences. I sincerely hope not.
Anyway, here is a copy of a FS list I received from Scott in 2008. I guess that the more information that is in the public domain about the protos he had for FS the better (I realise that this list is perhaps only the 'tip of the iceberg').
Good luck to all who got caught up in this mess - just glad I didn't buy the painted HC Biker Scout a while back.
Regards,
Christian
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WANTED:'Premium Offer of Collector Stand' Mailaway Coupon/Paperwork from EB Set - TOP MONEY PAID!
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skye
Reged: 08/31/04
Loc: Hothchester, NY
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This is probably the worst thing ever, in terms of the hobby. Like many, I heard the whispers, but it is something else to get some idea of the scale of the thievery. The only bright side is the honor shown by the wronged parties, especially John and Broc.
( BTW, Steve and I are recording our next podcast tomorrow night, and if anyone wants to speak on this feel free to let me know. Heck, if Scott is reading this and wants a forum to speak we would give him the opportunity.)
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Star Wars Collectors Archive Podcast: Collect all 8! WAMPA WAMPA!!!
The Chewbacca Museum The Chewseum
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CloudCity_Gangzr
Reged: 04/26/07
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At this point it would foolish of Scott to reply, don’t you think? He probably cant/wont cover the financial ramifications of this exploding situation. With potential civil or criminal lawsuits on the horizon, him speaking publicly would not be wise. I’m no legal expert either, but the burden of proof is difficult here. It sounds like there is a lot of proof of sale, but proof that he intentionally defrauded us is another matter. I wasn’t a part of it but ‘us’ feels appropriate.
With all of this coming to light, and Scott playing the conspiracy card. I’m curious to know what Scott’s story was. Is he denying the process described by Chris is exclusive? I’m assuming that process is 100% consistent on all known legit HCs. Prior to his silence was he submitting that HCs were done Chris' way and some were done with an injection technique?
I’m sure he’s reading this. This is certainly not the place to discuss future legal plans, if there are to be any.
Chad
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RS Feedback
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Uncle_Gundy
Reged: 10/12/01
Loc: Asia
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Christian wrote:
I ended up with that Chithur hardcopy head on that list
Uncle Gundy 
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In case of emergency, breakdance
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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Daniel_Bornheim wrote:
Here´s my at-at commander head, probably a fake to, got lots of air bubbles and also leads back to Mcwilliams.
Detail and casting quality look poor. Hardcopies should be very smooth-surfaced and highly detailed.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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ChrisGeorgoulias wrote:
I think this one single photo speaks volumes. It also helps to show that buying and trying to analyze from a regular photo can be difficult.
Under normal lighting conditions, and with a fairly low-res photo, these items all look basically the same. However, when you shine a black light onto the group you get an entirely different view.
This blacklight stuff is awesome, but it's important to remember that the alleged fakes also show quite a few differences in detail when compared with known legit examples.
The real Bossk legs, for instance, contain lots of little details that don't show up on either the alleged fakes or the production figure.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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CloudCity_Gangzr
Reged: 04/26/07
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_Darren_ wrote:
I hate to be a cynic(although anybody who knows me would say the opposite)but the amounts of money we are talking about here will decimate the proto/hardcopy market forever...Most new(ish)collectors won't dare go near this very exclusive part of the hobby,now and i'm sure many who got duped will forever have a bad taste(and empty wallet)
I was thinking the same thing. I didn’t want to throw gasoline on the fire. The effects of this are potential catastrophic. It is a direct hit on the foundations of the Hardcopy market(for lack of a better word). It makes me angry.
Chad
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RS Feedback
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Pharmdeon
Reged: 08/24/06
Loc: in Arizona
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Dave_Macleod wrote:
DO all the larger POTF coins lead back to mcwilliams too?
-Dave
I had been debating whether or not to post this, but ...
I know that this is not the same, kind of like comparing apples and oranges -- both are fruit ...
About a year ago just prior to when the whole thick/thin coin information came out I contacted Scott via PM to see if he had any coin protos based on a reply by him in a WTB coin thread. He replied saying he did have some. It was a month or so before I could get back to him and when I did, they were all gone. He did reply that he had a silver 63rd coin that was thicker. He noted at that time that it was not a remake and "However no matter what the boys say there was never a remake". He proceeded to tell me that he found the source for these thicker coins and this source still had some dies and hobbs left. He also told me that 46 (I think it was 46) of the dies and hobbs were owned by this "source" and most of the good ones were sold in 94-95. I asked if if this person still had any left to sell. He then went into the "politics" and stated a lot of the big time coin collectors were trying to discredit this source and the thicker coins because they were "angry" that he (Scott) had tapped into their (the big coin collectors) source. I then asked if he could contact this person as I wanted to buy a set of dies/hobbs. His response was this "I will call him sometime this week and ask him about them.
If he does not mind I will put you in direct touch.
However be careful not to let the boys know because you will catch alot of flack. "
After this, all conversation with him went dead and I have not heard from him since.
Now, I do not know Scott at all except for the series of PMs ... seemed nice enough, even gave me his number to call him to discuss the coins. I can not comment on the hardcopy situation at all as I did not buy anything from Scott, but I wanted to share the above info as it seems to show a pattern i.e. keep it secret, the politics of collecting, etc.
It sucks that so many people got duped but at the same time it shows how a lot of the collectors here have great character.
Deon
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Deon
Member of the 62 club!
Wanted: rare coin items
My (small) Feedback
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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tapuvae wrote:
Any reason the parting lines on legit pieces would be a different color under a black light?
When I was casting stuff, I often used a white material. The parting lines on the pieces I cast would often show up as yellow.
When you pull these things out of a mold, the underlying material is usually still curing to some extent (the pieces are literally still warm due to the chemical reaction). On the smooth surfaces, this isn't an issue. But at the parting line there is always a bit of flashing, and tearing that off exposes the underlying material. I suspect that when that hits the air, it cures really quickly, and that's what produces the darker color.
Either that or the catalyst portion of the two-part material tends to collect at the parting line for some reason.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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CloudCity_Gangzr
Reged: 04/26/07
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Scott is not the source of the 'reprint' coins. He had several at one point. He also has quite an elaborate tale to explain their thickness and still proclaim them to be vintage. I have personally dug very deep into his story and found it to be false.
-Chad
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RS Feedback
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12p542
Reged: 08/17/10
Loc: New York City
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Terrible news to everyone. Hopefully, things will be resolved for those affected.
Now a hypothetical question: wouldn't the following be some sort of a recipe for better fakes?
ronsalvatore wrote:
5) Kenner only painted nice, nearly flawless hardcopies. No painted hardcopy I've ever seen has air bubbles, visible casting flaws, etc.
6) Most of the "unfinished" and/or random hardcopy parts out there came from contacts associated with the old Kenner model shop. Many of them were Ed's contacts. The other sources mostly had complete (and usually painted) hardcopies. If someone offers you random or flaw-ridden parts that cannot be traced back to a good source, regard it as a red flag. The great majority of hardcopies that made it out of Kenner were complete.
7) Hardcopies always, always have better detail than production figures. It's finer, tighter, etc. If the details on something you're looking at are bulbous or muddy, question it.
8) A protomolded figure should not have air bubbles in it. It's injection-molded plastic!
9) As far as I know, legit protomolded parts have not turned up in any quantity. Protomolded figures are virtually always complete, and they're usually fully painted. If someone offers you a protomolded head or arm -- red flag.
That is, in the absence of provenance and legit sources.
Edited by 12p542 (09/22/10 12:04 PM)
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acedecade75
Reged: 07/06/02
Loc: USA
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Here are some pictures of the bad Admiral Screed hardcopy and Morag staff:
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u196/acedecade75/SCOTT%20MCWILLIAMS%20PIECES/AdmiralScreedPaintedHardcopy.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u196/acedecade75/SCOTT%20MCWILLIAMS%20PIECES/MoragStafffHardcopyCastInGreenDynacast.jpg
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Pharmdeon
Reged: 08/24/06
Loc: in Arizona
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I did not suspect he was, he claimed to know the source though. My whole point was to note the secrecy and "politics" of that situation.
Again, I hope ALL of those involved get their just dues.
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Deon
Member of the 62 club!
Wanted: rare coin items
My (small) Feedback
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Mattias_Rendahl
Reged: 09/07/04
Loc: S W E D E N
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I'm one of the victims as well. I got the painted and unpainted Lumat from that list plus a few carbalon parts.
One year ago I bought one painted and one unpainted Lumat from Scott. The painted one supposedly came from the Earth, today I really regret not checking that history back then, but I had no reason not to believe Scott. When rumours started I began to check my stuff more closely, I checked the provenance and the painted Lumat didn't come from the Earth. I sent him an email, Scott changes his story and said he never had said it came from the Earth. I showed him the email (which I of course have saved), he then changed the story and said it came from Intergalactic. I now looked more closely on my Lumats and realized they didn't look good. Gus and Duncan came to visit and confirmed that they didn't look good. Especially the unpainted one. I believe they were both cast from one original hard copy since they both have some identical flaws, but more about that shortly.
When I went through an old computer I found the picture of the Lumats which Scott sent me before we made the deal. I noticed the unpainted hard copy in the picture didn't match the one I had recieved. Mine had many air bubbles, looked completely wrong in color etc etc. And the one in the original picture had a broken ear and mine was complete. I contacted Scott again and asked how in the world something like that had happened. By now I was of course sure they were fake. This was back in May. Scott stopped answering my emails and I didn't hear back from him until I met him at CV. During set-up on thursday, he took me outside and gave me a box which contained "the real Lumat", I'm almost sure Scott accidentally even said exactly like that, but am not 100% sure. But it was something like that. I got quite shocked and I returned my original painted and unpainted Lumats to him which by now had been looked at by a lot of people. And I wanted the refund for the painted one. Which he said would be taken care of, but he didn't do that. I spoke to him several days but he always had excuses and ran away when I asked for my refund.
I realized I wouldn't get my money back so I started to try to get one of his legit pieces with rock solid provenance. But he said he wasn't able to do so because they were for sale in Jordan's booth and he didn't want to use those items for trades since Jordan wanted commission on that suff. Which I understood. But I kept trying and the day before he disapeared from CV he gave me a box and said I should have that instead of the painted Lumat. I was hoping it to be one of the legit pieces which were in the HH booth. But it turned out to be a Leia Poncho Hard Copy. Which on closer inspection also was fake. probably the worst fake I've ever seen and definitely cast from a production figure.
That was the end of part 1. Now I need to rush but wanted to post something today, more to come tomorrow (or later tonight if I come home in decent time).
Mattias
PS. sorry for spelling errors and maybe some details I've missed.
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Looking for all kind of prototypes, especially for Luke Farmboy, Leia Hoth, Dengar and Endor related characters
Edited by Mattias_Rendahl (09/23/10 05:23 AM)
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Delboy75
Reged: 01/15/03
Loc: England
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Wow guys this is really really sad news.
I'm in shock that someone could pull off a scam to this scale. This is huge, i really feel for everyone involved.
Its bad enough loosing huge sums of money, but having one of your most prized possesions confirmed fake must be a real heartache. Its not nice being scammed by someone you class as a friend, i just hope he refunds all parties involved (sadly tho i doubt this will be the case).
Hopefully you guys can all pull together and take this guy to the cleaners. He has made a small fortune out of these worthless fakes, harmed the proto market to the point where it will put peope off collecting them, and ripped off highly respected collectors/friends in the process.
Del
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WANTED, ESB MOC & Last 17 Tri logo with Ł1.59 sticker!
http://community.webshots.com/user/delboy1975
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wooten
Reged: 09/13/00
Loc: Galloway, OH
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CloudCity_Gangzr wrote:
_Darren_ wrote:
I hate to be a cynic(although anybody who knows me would say the opposite)but the amounts of money we are talking about here will decimate the proto/hardcopy market forever...Most new(ish)collectors won't dare go near this very exclusive part of the hobby,now and i'm sure many who got duped will forever have a bad taste(and empty wallet)
I was thinking the same thing. I didn’t want to throw gasoline on the fire. The effects of this are potential catastrophic. It is a direct hit on the foundations of the Hardcopy market(for lack of a better word). It makes me angry.
Chad
To be honest, no new collector should just be diving into this part of the hobby anyway. It's always a good idea to get provenance and ask tons of questions, run things by experts, etc. The problem with this is there was enough legitimate stuff to create trust and less questions were asked than there should have been. It happens, and it wont happen again to be sure. Sure, everyone's credibility takes a hit here, but in the end, this should just reinforce to everyone that there isn't much of this stuff around and questions must be asked and verified whenever possible. I don't think it's a 'deal breaker' in terms of trusting the experts. I think that field may be smaller than it was before this scam, but I still think there are key people that I have 1000% faith in being able to determine if something is real or not.
In general, most of this kind of stuff came from a few solid sources direct from Kenner engineers, photographers, and designers and the community has become a little lackadaisical over the years since most of the stuff was coming from one group of guys. Over the years, things have been bought, sold and sold again and sometimes we're all guilty of taking the sellers word for it that it was from a certain person or the dubious "kenner employee". The problem was of course compounded by the secrecy of the market, which the seller certainly used to his advantage.
I applaud everyone for coming forward about this. This stuff's been questionable for some time although I had no idea the extent to which it occurred. The frustrating thing was that there was legitimate stuff involved as well. I personally only dealt with Scott one time, and I'm in the process of confirming his story on that piece. I do remember it was in response to a post here on RS about hardcopies being available. Since I started collecting again, I've been passively interested in getting a 3 3/4 hardcopy and was interested in what he had for sale. It was sort of a pain to exchange emails infrequently or be asked to call him to discuss so I never really followed through on anything.
In the end, this is a lesson to everyone and I hope that it ends up being less costly than it seems right now. To new collectors, I would say use caution as you would with any purchase. Learn your stuff, validate it and re-validate it. Don't be afraid to ask questions. If a seller wants it kept quiet, or if they have an unusual quantity of 'rare' stuff, that should be a huge red flag now if it wasn't before, even in a relatively secretive aspect of the hobby. I don't want to speak for anyone, but I think you could never go wrong asking Ron or Chris Georgoulias to verify a piece for you. Those two, along with a few others like Gus, Ed, Chris Fawcett, Tom Derby and Todd Chamberlain have handled more hardcopies than anyone else ever will. They've talked to the kenner guys at length and still have access to those original guys if needed. I would always rely on their opinion. In fact, Scott's own comments about 'the boys' being upset show how respected their opinions should be, as well as how silly it is for people to fall into the idea that any of them are motivated to do anything other than what's best for the hobby. The notion that they would not authenticate anything that didn't come from them is 'valid' only to someone concerned about the origins of their stuff.
-John
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John Wooten
http://www.oswcc.com
http://www.theswca.com
Edited by wooten (09/24/10 08:31 AM)
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ThorOakenfelder
Reged: 06/01/05
Loc: East Mesa Arizona
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wow, just wow. What a complex, convoluted, and terrible tale. It seems to me that fraud on that scale constitutes a felony, and selling fraudulent items internationally is probably a good way to get yourself into a really deep hole.
I feel bad for everyone who got scammed by this guy. Although it is fascinating when so many big guns contribute to a thread like this with info about legit pieces and such.
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Got a vintage question? have you read The FAQ?
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Leif_G
Reged: 02/01/06
Loc: BC, Canada
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KevinA wrote:
cfawcett wrote:
Kevin,
I see what you're thinking, but the pieces stolen from the C5 booth were Scott's pieces.
Cj
I'm a terrible detective! I guess it can still look suspicious given the circumstances - maybe a way to try and get money out of HH. Or a way to hide fakes when asked to see them? Anyways, I don't know Scott so I'll stop there.
Or maybe someone got taken for a ride by Scott and decided to help themselves to some compensation?
Leif
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Leif's Trade Feedback
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DarthZilla71
Reged: 01/08/08
Loc: Glendale, California
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This is really a crazy sad situation, I hope everyone involved gets their money back or some sort of "real" compensation. It makes you feel kind of sick to your stomach when you realize how long this has been going on and how many fakes have now infected this aspect of the hobby, truly sad.
-Mark
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Got Mortar Heads?
http://mortarheads.com/
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Leif_G
Reged: 02/01/06
Loc: BC, Canada
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DarthZilla71 wrote:
...and how many fakes have now infected this aspect of the hobby, truly sad.
This brings up a question for me....
Presumably, people who are stuck with trying to get compensation from Scott are keeping their 'fakes' for now, until the situation has been resolved. But what happens afterward? Will people be destroying these fake items?
Leif
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Leif's Trade Feedback
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cfawcett
Reged: 11/06/00
Loc: North Carolina
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I will probably keep mine for curiosity's sake, kinda like the Blue Harvest stuff that people have kept. But I certainly would never sell them, even under the explanation that they're fakes, because once their out of my hands, they could be pawned off again as real.
Chris came up with the idea of calling this the Green Harvest based on this shirt: http://theswca.com/index.php?action=disp_item&item_id=74388
I think it's pretty apropos considering the $ involved and that dynacast is green.
Cj
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WTB: First Shot Warok, Palitoy ESB Han Hoth, PBP Han Hoth (ESB & ROTJ)
Vintage Toy Archive: http://www.12back.com
Edited by cfawcett (09/22/10 02:47 PM)
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Arnaud
Reged: 07/07/05
Loc: Paris, France
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I'm sorry to hear about this and see so many nice people victims of such a large-scale fraud.
I have never bought anything from Scott McWilliams. I never believed his stories. Still, like everybody else, I will need to check if I didn't get pieces from someone else that originated from him.
Now we may not always agree on everything here but a case like this brings us all together, even if we are not direct victims ourselves. Such a nasty attack on our hobby hurts just about everybody.
I suggest all victims unite and sue Scott together. I will gladly contribute to the legal costs of such group action even if I'm not a victim.
Now a few words to Scott McWilliams himself: if you read this, as I believe you are, this is serious fraud and the fraud will be proven. This means you will have to refund these people even if it takes your lifetime. Now the only question is, will you go to jail?
One way or another, you will have to face the consequences of your actions. Right now, the scale of it and the huge sums in question probably make you feel like your only choice is to hide and hope it all goes away. But it won't go away. This is way too serious.
So either you get the courage to talk to your victims and offer them compensation and you will have a chance at avoiding jail.
Or you don't get in touch with your victims and you will end up having to refund them AND you will go to jail.
The choice is yours.
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Leif_G
Reged: 02/01/06
Loc: BC, Canada
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cfawcett wrote:
I will probably keep mine for curiosity's sake, kinda like the Blue Harvest stuff that people have kept. But I certainly would never sell them, even under the explanation that they're fakes, because once their out of my hands, they could be pawned off again as real.
I know this is a bit... morbid. But what about the idea of leaving some instructions to destroy it if you were to kick off, so it doesn't end up in an estate sale?
Also, could it be that these 'Green Harvest' fakes might actually become collectible the same way the 'Blue Harvest' fakes have become sought after to some extent?
Leif
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Leif's Trade Feedback
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Lee_Bullock
Reged: 09/25/02
Loc: united kingdom
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Arnaud wrote:
I'm sorry to hear about this and see so many nice people victims of such a large-scale fraud.
I have never bought anything from Scott McWilliams. I never believed his stories. Still, like everybody else, I will need to check if I didn't get pieces from someone else that originated from him.
Now we may not always agree on everything here but a case like this brings us all together, even if we are not direct victims ourselves. Such a nasty attack on our hobby hurts just about everybody.
I suggest all victims unite and sue Scott together. I will gladly contribute to the legal costs of such group action even if I'm not a victim.
Now a few words to Scott McWilliams himself: if you read this, as I believe you are, this is serious fraud and the fraud will be proven. This means you will have to refund these people even if it takes your lifetime. Now the only question is, will you go to jail?
One way or another, you will have to face the consequences of your actions. Right now, the scale of it and the huge sums in question probably make you feel like your only choice is to hide and hope it all goes away. But it won't go away. This is way too serious.
So either you get the courage to talk to your victims and offer them compensation and you will have a chance at avoiding jail.
Or you don't get in touch with your victims and you will end up having to refund them AND you will go to jail.
The choice is yours.
Kudos to you Arnaud for offering these guys to help with the legal costs - that speaks a thousand words of your commitment to the hobby - yes we may not as a comunnity always agree but in the face of such a nasty attack on the hobby - an attack on one facet of the hobby is an attack on all facets.
I just hope Scott mans up now, and not when he is trying to avoid jail time when he is bought to justice.
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PALITOY and foreign 12" wanted.
When Joe's head cracks, when that big head cracks
It's "Welcome back, Joe. Welcome back, Joe." BIG BLACK
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spoons
Reged: 02/12/06
Loc: Oxford, England
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I really feel for everyone affected. I know it's small fry in comparison, but having been caught in the Billy Boy scam, I know how it feels when a centrepiece of a collection suddenly becomes a meaningless fake.
I'm sure Scott will be brought to justice eventually
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Jeff_R
Reged: 05/16/06
Loc: California
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My heart goes out to you guys that have been affected by this. I can't imagine the frustration you are going through right now. I hope this guy gets what he deserves!
-Jeff
Edited by Jeff_R (09/22/10 04:31 PM)
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Todd_Hudson
Reged: 02/15/03
Loc: Maui HI
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Jeff_R wrote:
Dave_Macleod wrote:
DO all the larger POTF coins lead back to mcwilliams too?
I was actually curious about this myself. Are there now coin hardcopies or any micro 4-ups that trace back to Scott, and would now be in question? Or is this situation limited to figure related items?
My heart goes out to you guys that have been affected by this. I can't imagine the frustration you are going through right now. I hope this guy gets what he deserves!
-Jeff
Jeff,
pretty sure no 6-ups have been faked...those would be pretty easy to tell plus I don't believe he even owns any 6-ups..unless he bought them in past couple of years.
Can't speak for 4-ups but I do remember him owning 4-ups in wax and dynacast so it wouldn't be impossible for that to have happened
Todd
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"Now if your stealing money from your grandma and donating plasma to complete your Cheif Chirpa focus bootleg set then thats no fun and should probably be avoided."
http://WWW.TODDONMAUI.COM
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JohnA
Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
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CloudCity_Gangzr wrote:
Scott is not the source of the 'reprint' coins. He had several at one point. He also has quite an elaborate tale to explain their thickness and still proclaim them to be vintage. I have personally dug very deep into his story and found it to be false.
-Chad
Are you sure about that? I've heard he most definitely was the source. Though there is no solid proof many believe he had them made by a contact inside Osborne. There's a good chance all of those are bogus modern restrikes too and never served any purpose, even as POTF2 tests. I added that Zuckuss because I wanted the coin but I'm fairly certain it's just the coin version of a Blue Harvest HC, a filler and nothing more. If it weren't struck from the same dies I wouldn't even think about it. I've heard from more than one reliable source he had them made and the story he clings to is just like these HCs, another story to give credence to fakes.
John
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and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character
-Shai Hulud
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Bobafettguy
Reged: 12/19/05
Loc: CA.
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I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for the support. Thanks Arnaud - that means a lot.
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Marty - yub yub
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JohnA
Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Todd_Hudson wrote:
pretty sure no 6-ups have been faked...those would be pretty easy to tell plus I don't believe he even owns any 6-ups..unless he bought them in past couple of years.
Actually, much like the fake 3PO Micro wax that Basement Bounty Hunters had, and Scott had for sale at CV, he also owns a Han SC, which is one of the known pieces that BBN also faked.
John
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and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character
-Shai Hulud
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JosephY
Reged: 12/21/01
Loc: Providence RI
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JohnA wrote:
Todd_Hudson wrote:
pretty sure no 6-ups have been faked...those would be pretty easy to tell plus I don't believe he even owns any 6-ups..unless he bought them in past couple of years.
Actually, much like the fake 3PO Micro wax that Basement Bounty Hunters had, and Scott had for sale at CV, he also owns a Han SC, which is one of the known pieces that BBN also faked.
John
Rob A confirmed that that the 3po wax was a BBH piece at CV.
Scott also had some micro 4 ups at CV that I heard people looking at and speculating over the potential for them to not be real at CV. I didn't really look at them as Micro's not my bag.
J
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"You should be ashamed of yourself for supporting pirate Star Wars toys!"-TBFN
Wants:ANY Carded Polish, Mexican Amanaman,Loose Hungarian Vader
http://www.myspace.com/theusualsuspectsri
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Sems_Fir
Reged: 10/25/00
Loc: Connecticut
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Uncle_Gundy wrote:
Christian wrote:
I ended up with that Chithur hardcopy head on that list
Uncle Gundy
First, I must say I did meet Scott back at C3 and spoke to him briefly as he was leaving the convention to return home. We had a friendly conversation and I have no stake in what has transpired. I have never purchased an item from Scott. I did sell him the carded Chituhr I used to own. I only have a possible theory as to how the hardcopy head to the Chithur was created.
First, when I sold the carded Chituhr, one of the hardcopy legs fell off. I have the following image as proof:
Now, if you notice in the following image, not only is the leg seperated from the figure the bubble was also starting to detach from the cardback:
If you view the below image I saved on December 1, 2003 that Scott posted of the unproduced Ewok set he had going, notice the carded Chituhr in the background, the leg has been reattached. 
Based on how the bubble was coming detached from the card it would have been difficult to reattach the leg without seperating the bubble even more from the card (in my opinion). The only theory I have is that the bubble was lifted and the leg reattached. At that point in time Scott could've (I'm not stating he did) made a copy of the hardcopy head. I'm not sure if the hardcopy head Derek purchased is the same size, but it's the only theory I have. He also owned a painted example (pictured) and I also have been notified that he once owned the multi colored example first shot of Chituhr I once owned. I'm not sure if he could've made a copy of the unpainted one. Anyway, just a theory. Does anyone know if he sold the carded Chituhr or if he still has it? Derek can you post a picture of the Chituhr hardcopy head you purchased from Scott?
Robert
www.behindthetoys.com
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JMiller
Reged: 05/19/00
Loc: north Dallas suburbs
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Wow, I really feel bad for all of those that were taken. Reading this thread just makes me feel sick, and I am not even a hardcopy collector.
The scope of this is staggering and it really is shocking that YET ANOTHER 'trusted longtime seller' has apparently turned out to be a scammer. That to me is unbelievable. Just knowing that a fellow collector befriended so many and built up trust only to absolutely rip them off is truly unbelievable in every sense of the word. .
I too will gladly chip in a few $$$ if this gets elevated legally. I have been a collector for over 15 years and it really saddens me to see my beloved hobby get tarnished in such a malicious way.
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Always looking for non-US cardbacks/MOC Death Star Droids!
My Feedback
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Jason_West
Reged: 03/08/02
Loc: Northern Virginia
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Here is a list of "prototypes" Scott sold in July 2004.
lando hand painted first shot. $200 (sold)
Lumat first shot with different color bag $150
Bib Fortuna first shot production colors $165 (sold)
Five unproduced e-woks.
2- chief chirpas
2-paploo
1- Bondo
Adm. Screed
Gaff
Hand painted DT Luke
Hand painted DT Ben
stormtrooper
jawa
Tusken Raider
Personally, I will deem all of them fake. I wanted to post this list, in case someone might have purchased any of these. Unfortunately, no pictures were posted.
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Jason West
Collection and Blog: MADBROWNZ
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GanjaFett
Reged: 12/27/08
Loc: Southern US
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Very unfortunate for everyone involved. I've only been ripped off on fake production accessories, so I can't even imagine what you guys are feelings.
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WTB Fett variants~US~Foreign~Bootleg
My FeedbacK
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Todd_Hudson
Reged: 02/15/03
Loc: Maui HI
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Jason_West wrote:
Here is a list of "prototypes" Scott sold in July 2004.
lando hand painted first shot. $200 (sold)
Lumat first shot with different color bag $150
Bib Fortuna first shot production colors $165 (sold)
Five unproduced e-woks.
2- chief chirpas
2-paploo
1- Bondo
Adm. Screed
Gaff
Hand painted DT Luke
Hand painted DT Ben
stormtrooper
jawa
Tusken Raider
Personally, I will deem all of them fake. I wanted to post this list, in case someone might have purchased any of these. Unfortunately, no pictures were posted.
Just reread Jason's post...
I do believe the Lando and Lumat First shots where real, they came from me...cant say for sure about anything else.
Todd
Edited by Todd_Hudson (09/22/10 10:59 PM)
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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12p542 wrote:
Terrible news to everyone. Hopefully, things will be resolved for those affected.
Now a hypothetical question: wouldn't the following be some sort of a recipe for better fakes?
ronsalvatore wrote:
5) Kenner only painted nice, nearly flawless hardcopies. No painted hardcopy I've ever seen has air bubbles, visible casting flaws, etc.
6) Most of the "unfinished" and/or random hardcopy parts out there came from contacts associated with the old Kenner model shop. Many of them were Ed's contacts. The other sources mostly had complete (and usually painted) hardcopies. If someone offers you random or flaw-ridden parts that cannot be traced back to a good source, regard it as a red flag. The great majority of hardcopies that made it out of Kenner were complete.
7) Hardcopies always, always have better detail than production figures. It's finer, tighter, etc. If the details on something you're looking at are bulbous or muddy, question it.
8) A protomolded figure should not have air bubbles in it. It's injection-molded plastic!
9) As far as I know, legit protomolded parts have not turned up in any quantity. Protomolded figures are virtually always complete, and they're usually fully painted. If someone offers you a protomolded head or arm -- red flag.
That is, in the absence of provenance and legit sources.
There's always the danger that someone will use information to cheat collectors. I don't think that means you stop sharing the information.
The bottom line is that this will happen again. Hardcopies are pretty easy to fake. Whoever made this crop seems to have gotten better over time, and I suspect the nicer examples are the result of much trial and error.
Unfortunately, if you're going to collect this stuff, fakes are just something you're going to have to deal with.
That's why I think it's important to highlight context and provenance. People cannot just assume some guy who pops up out of the blue claiming to have legit sources and over 200 hardcopies is telling the truth. Everyone needs to understand how unlikely that is.
The Star Wars toy hobby is in a weird place in general. At some point around 12 years ago prototypes became really big. All the toy collectors came to desire waxes and hardcopies. And this trend has only been exacerbated by the fact that no one seems to collect carded figures or boxed toys anymore. Everyone is after prototypes. The esoteric fringe has become the mainstream.
I'm as responsible for popularizing this stuff as anyone else...but then I don't think it's something you can attach blame to. It just kind of is what it is.
But, sadly, there is not enough of this stuff to go around. There are very few legitimate hardcopies, and even fewer wax sculpts. Certainly not enough to satisfy the demand. The whole situation is a forger's dream.
So be on your toes. Ask questions, demand that you be able to send the piece to an expert for validation, etc. And don't buy into the BS regarding hobby jealousy.
--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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Black_Falcon
Reged: 03/31/04
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Damn what a shame - what a big old mess this is 
I looked a the cabinet of prototypes at C5 - and was very interested in one of Scott's pieces in particular.
My understanding of prototypes is fair, but very limited when compared to the experts in that side of the hobby.
Celebration had just about as good a gathering of prototype collectors as we are ever likely to see in one place.
It seemed like the perfect stage to sell such pieces, to review and compare their provenance and to have experts validate them?
It was good to see for myself, the piece that I was interested in at C5.
Thank you to those of you who offered me advise and pointers on features of such prototypes, when I asked you, I appreciate your help.
I had my own reservations about this piece from the outset (aside from obvious gob-smacking value).
An apparent reluctance to allow the piece other, more knowledgeable collectors to offer their opinions, just steered me away from this prototype.
Reading this thread is making me think that was a wise decision right now.
I hope that those of you who are out of pocket from any that are fakes, are recompensed.
- Graham
--------------------
webshots
Figure-wise the Jawa has a cloth cape that was made from someone's brown sock
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Uncle_Gundy
Reged: 10/12/01
Loc: Asia
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Here are the pics as requested earlier
Uncle Gundy
--------------------
In case of emergency, breakdance
Edited by Uncle_Gundy (09/23/10 01:45 AM)
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gus
Reged: 11/14/01
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Youthberg wrote:
KevinA wrote:
A little bit OT maybe, but are any of these fake prototypes featured in Gus & Duncan's prototype book? I'm asking since I guess that it was printed before anyone knew about this mess?
A couple of items slipped in there. We were aware of the scandal as we were going to print so thankfully removed some dubious items at the last minute. Unfortunately we missed two carbalon heads (CCP and AT-ST Driver) and two accessories (Morag staff and Chituhr whip) that are most likely fraudulent. All in all, it could have been a lot worse!
Gus
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gus
Reged: 11/14/01
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Arnaud wrote:
Now a few words to Scott McWilliams himself: if you read this, as I believe you are, this is serious fraud and the fraud will be proven. This means you will have to refund these people even if it takes your lifetime. Now the only question is, will you go to jail?
Well said, Arnaud. I think Scott would be a fool to do anything else besides refunding everyone as soon as he can. If you add up the amounts, it tops even some of the well-publicized collecting scams that have hit national/international news in the past several years. I'm sure folks in the criminal justice system will take interest once damage is totaled--it's too significant to ignore. People have gone to prison for much less.
Even the best case scenario for Scott will likely involve federal investigators interviewing victims, friends, families, colleagues, and business partners, and the end of his professional reputation. He'll probably never come clean, but ironically it would be in his best interests if he thought this through...
Gus
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Mattias_Rendahl
Reged: 09/07/04
Loc: S W E D E N
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Todd_Hudson wrote:
Jason_West wrote:
Here is a list of "prototypes" Scott sold in July 2004.
lando hand painted first shot. $200 (sold)
Lumat first shot with different color bag $150
Bib Fortuna first shot production colors $165 (sold)
Five unproduced e-woks.
2- chief chirpas
2-paploo
1- Bondo
Adm. Screed
Gaff
Hand painted DT Luke
Hand painted DT Ben
stormtrooper
jawa
Tusken Raider
Personally, I will deem all of them fake. I wanted to post this list, in case someone might have purchased any of these. Unfortunately, no pictures were posted.
I do believe the Lando and Lumat First shots where real, they came from me...cant say for sure about anything else.
Todd
And I now own that Lumat. Most of the items on that sale list are first shots and genuine. Like have been stated before, Scott has owned many legit pieces as well, so need to get worried about everything. And first shots are much more difficult to fake, but after this mess I would of course tripple check everything that comes from him.
The DT Luke and Ben both came from Steve Denny in the first place, then Tom brokered them via CCC, Justin Kerns bought them, then Jason Zapp, then Scott and then some other people. The Luke was last seen in Gus & Duncan's prototype book
Mattias
--------------------
Looking for all kind of prototypes, especially for Luke Farmboy, Leia Hoth, Dengar and Endor related characters
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Mattias_Rendahl
Reged: 09/07/04
Loc: S W E D E N
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Ok, part 2.
With a new fake in my hands (painted Leia Endor HC) I tried to get hold of Scott. But he had disappeared for good. He said it came from directly from a former Kenner employee, he had even said earlier he wasn't sure about the legitimacy. So I don't understand how in the world he thought I was going to be happy with it. A terrible cast and looked to be painted by a 5 year old. I spoke to him on the phone and wanted to swop it for one of his good HC's. He had many excuses all the time, I said I could drive over to his place and return it, send it with one of his friends, send it over with a town car etc. But he never answered and I asked him to confirm his addy, which he never did either. So I had to go back to Sweden with the fake Leia Endor. It would have been so easy to give me one of his legitimate pieces in Orlando, but no. 2 weeks after I returned home, he actually answered one of my emails (after I told him that people started to ask questions and I want to be done with this mess). So he actually sent me a new hard copy with rock solid provenance which was great, it was even a more expensive HC. But I still had a few carbalon heads (AT-ST Driver, CCP, Zuckuss) which I told him I needed a refund for as well. Those heads (incl Daniels AT-AT Commander) minus the difference for the new real HC leaves me to him owning me $800.
But like John said, it's not only the money. I have sold legitimite pieces to fund stuff from Scott. I am 'fortunate' to have recieved most of my money back, but it's still a terrible situation.
What really puzzles me is why Scott had 2 unpainted hard copies of the same figure. One was so bad and looked completely different that even a proto newbie would see there was something fishy if the two were compared. And since Scott had both of them at the same time in his collection, I don't get that he wouldn't see there was something wrong with one of them. If Scott was duped, he has been really blind and naive.
Scott, I gave you a chance to come clear before this story went public. But you choose not to. I don't care about your stories etc anymore. I dont care if you have been duped. I only care about people will be getting their money back and will gladly spend more money on legal actions than you already owe me.
And oh, Scott bragged about casting resin all night during CV to fix a statue. Interesting that he told be he 1) was casting 2) had resin at home to be able to do so.
Mattias
PS. Thanks to Gus and Duncan who was the first to look at the Lumats first hand, and thanks to that we could remove them for the book. I just regret I didn't ask you guys to look at the 'carbalon' heads while you were here.
PSS. I've mentioned Jordan and HH in my posts, I just wanted to clearify that he had nothing to do with my HC dealings with Scott. He only had specific pieces in his booth (which I wanted instead of my fake items I got directly from Scott)
--------------------
Looking for all kind of prototypes, especially for Luke Farmboy, Leia Hoth, Dengar and Endor related characters
Edited by Mattias_Rendahl (09/23/10 08:03 AM)
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HollywoodHeroes
Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
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Mattias_Rendahl wrote:
Ok, part 2.
PSS. I've mentioned Jordan and HH in my posts, I just wanted to clearify that he had nothing to do with my HC dealings with Scott. He only had a few legitimate pieces in his booth (which I wanted instead of my fake items I got directly from Scott)
Mattias,
Thanks for your kind words, and I appreciate it. You have been wonderful to work with post-CV.
Just curious, I hope you mean Jordan had "specific" legitimate pieces in his booth....
The way this reads, it sounds like the entire cabinet was filled with junk and you wanted the only few items that were deemed real. I remember you wanted specific characters to complete your deal with Scott.
The only item we removed from the case the second day was the Leia Bespin, which was a piece I was unable to provide information for, to collectors.
Hope this helps!
All the best-
Jordan
--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com
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sisefromm
Reged: 06/08/04
Loc: germany - cologne
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all my compassion goes to all concerned.
sadly days for the whole comunity and such a cool hobby.
so maybe the AFA system is something we should use before
selling something... it brings maybe a better price graded and the buyer knows it is legit...
ahhh so sorry to hear all this...
and great to hear Arnaud will help in a point.
--------------------
WTB: vader: proofs, errors/miscards,
meccano 12/21 moc, protos.
german related: displays, moc´s, multipack 3 packs from parker.
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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Uncle_Gundy wrote:
Here are the pics as requested earlier
Uncle Gundy
That doesn't look too bad, honestly. You should send it to Chris and have him take a look at it, though.
--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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Mattias_Rendahl
Reged: 09/07/04
Loc: S W E D E N
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Ah, sorry about that, Jordan. I've changed the post
Mattias
--------------------
Looking for all kind of prototypes, especially for Luke Farmboy, Leia Hoth, Dengar and Endor related characters
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acedecade75
Reged: 07/06/02
Loc: USA
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It's interesting to see hear about Scott's carded Chituhr. He tried to sell me some of his carded EWOKS awhile back in addition to the other pieces I got from him. Since this situation has come to light, I've been wonderind if they were authentic or not.
Another interesting thing is that he once mentioned to me that he knew of a second carded Morag that was not known in "the collecting circle".
On another note, did anyone besides me get an Admiral Screed from him? It sounds like he very well may have had an authentic one at some point. However, it looks like he sold me a bad one. I wonder if he might still have a real Screed.
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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acedecade75 wrote:
It's interesting to see hear about Scott's carded Chituhr. He tried to sell me some of his carded EWOKS awhile back in addition to the other pieces I got from him. Since this situation has come to light, I've been wonderind if they were authentic or not.
Another interesting thing is that he once mentioned to me that he knew of a second carded Morag that was not known in "the collecting circle".
On another note, did anyone besides me get an Admiral Screed from him? It sounds like he very well may have had an authentic one at some point. However, it looks like he sold me a bad one. I wonder if he might still have a real Screed.
My sense is that the carded Droids and Ewoks he has/had are probably fine. But someone more knowledgeable about Droids/Ewoks should respond.
However, based on Robert's info about the Chituhr, I'd want to make sure that the figure that is currently under that bubble (which has obviously been lifted at some point) is good. It's possible that the legit hardcopy was removed from the bubble, copied, and replaced with a fake. Worth investigating...
--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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Bill_McBride
Reged: 05/01/01
Loc: Washington DC
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ronsalvatore wrote:
The Star Wars toy hobby is in a weird place in general. At some point around 12 years ago prototypes became really big. All the toy collectors came to desire waxes and hardcopies. And this trend has only been exacerbated by the fact that no one seems to collect carded figures or boxed toys anymore. Everyone is after prototypes. The esoteric fringe has become the mainstream.
I'm as responsible for popularizing this stuff as anyone else...but then I don't think it's something you can attach blame to. It just kind of is what it is.
So be on your toes. Ask questions, demand that you be able to send the piece to an expert for validation, etc. And don't buy into the BS regarding hobby jealousy.
I agree with Ron. I think people have access to, and get to see some of the rarest pieces in the hobby here and on the 'net. I think the actual rarity factor is lost in the translation. (ie. The Headman Uzay)
I don't think there is any "blame" to be had. Preproduction/Prototype material is highly desired in every collecting field I can think of. From cars, to pieces of original concept art, watches, guns, and everything in between. People collect preproduction material because 1) it's rare, and hard to find, and 2) you have a genuine passion for what you collect, and want a piece of the history behind it. Sadly, this is also the reason a lot of these pieces are subject to forgeries and fraud.
I really hate to say this, but when events like this happen we come out of it better than when we started. We know more, we are certainly more cautious, and as painful as it is; it is a very big lesson to be learned.
I did not personally deal with Scott for the reasons a lot of the other guys have pointed out. However, I will gladly join Arnaud and contribute to any legal fund that might be necessary. I am also truly sorry for anyone involved.
Bill
~ If anyone has any suspect Vader pieces, please feel free to contact me here, or via email. The examples in my collection trace directly back to The Earth. There are certain features that these pieces share that can be matched to each other, so once you know what to look for it's fairly easy to spot.
--------------------
Buying Rare and Unusual Darth Vader Items; Vintage and New
Check out The Darth Vader Toy Museum at: www.sithtoys.com
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Darkside_Apprentice
Reged: 01/23/02
Loc: Far East
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And the hits keep on coming I picked up the painted bespin guard with the broken hand. I havent had the heart to take it out to give it a good once over yet. WOuld be nice if someone has history on the piece beyond Scott but Im not holding my breath. Jeez who would go out of the way to do a fake with a broken hand. and I though gave it some authenticity
--------------------
Always looking for:
vintage BESpin Security Guard White items esp. proofs/cromalins
potf2 Lando skiff and jawa prototypes.
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tapuvae
Reged: 12/20/03
Loc: us
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Darkside_Apprentice wrote:
And the hits keep on coming I picked up the painted bespin guard with the broken hand. I havent had the heart to take it out to give it a good once over yet. WOuld be nice if someone has history on the piece beyond Scott but Im not holding my breath. Jeez who would go out of the way to do a fake with a broken hand. and I though gave it some authenticity
You've answered your own question there. Too perfect is a red flag.
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Broc
Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
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Darkside_Apprentice wrote:
And the hits keep on coming I picked up the painted bespin guard with the broken hand. I havent had the heart to take it out to give it a good once over yet. WOuld be nice if someone has history on the piece beyond Scott but Im not holding my breath. Jeez who would go out of the way to do a fake with a broken hand. and I though gave it some authenticity
Greg, you may actually be one of the lucky ones. That piece traces back to a find of hardcopies and protomolds that Jordan sold at C3. I even have a pic of that find and the Black Bespin Guard with missing hand is present. To my knowledge, all of those pieces have been deemed fine. They traced back to a Kenner source through Jordan and had nothing to do with Scott as best I know.
Jordan (or anyone else), please correct me if I'm wrong.
--------------------
Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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Darkside_Apprentice wrote:
And the hits keep on coming I picked up the painted bespin guard with the broken hand. I havent had the heart to take it out to give it a good once over yet. WOuld be nice if someone has history on the piece beyond Scott but Im not holding my breath. Jeez who would go out of the way to do a fake with a broken hand. and I though gave it some authenticity
Take some good photos and/or send it to Chris G. It isn't necessarily fake. Maybe you got lucky.
--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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Shane Turgeon
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: Edmonton, Alberta
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Bill_McBride wrote:
I did not personally deal with Scott for the reasons a lot of the other guys have pointed out. However, I will gladly join Arnaud and contribute to any legal fund that might be necessary. I am also truly sorry for anyone involved.
I had m own reasons for never dealing with Scott, and i'm glad i went with my gut on it all, but count me in for being willing to contribute some money towards the costs of a lawsuit or criminal investigation.
Ron, has the poster fraud case gone to court yet? It would be interesting to know the outcome of that as it shares many similarities with this fraud in terms of volume, dollar amounts and the number of well-known and knowledgeable collectors who were defrauded.
--------------------
Shane Turgeon
Author: The Force in the Flesh
www.theforceintheflesh.com
www.tattoosandtoys.com
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HollywoodHeroes
Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
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Broc-
I no longer have that photo, but give you permission to post it. It may help. That huge find was one of two I did that year. In fact, Bill and Tracey went and picked it up for me because it was simply too much to carry back on the plane.
Jordan
--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com
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Broc
Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
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HollywoodHeroes wrote:
Broc-
I no longer have that photo, but give you permission to post it. It may help. That huge find was one of two I did that year. In fact, Bill and Tracey went and picked it up for me because it was simply too much to carry back on the plane.
Jordan
Thanks for the clarification Jordan and permission to post the pic. That said, I'm afraid if I post it here it will only confuse people about what pieces are real and which ones are fake. Since all of the other pics in this thread are to show the fakes, I would hate to cause more problems and confusion.
That's good to know about Bill and Tracey going to pick it up. Did you mean they picked it up directly from the Kenner source or from an office of yours or something?
--------------------
Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)
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Bill_Wills
Reged: 10/31/01
Loc: Monroe, OH
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Broc wrote:
Thanks for the clarification Jordan and permission to post the pic. That said, I'm afraid if I post it here it will only confuse people about what pieces are real and which ones are fake. Since all of the other pics in this thread are to show the fakes, I would hate to cause more problems and confusion.
That's good to know about Bill and Tracey going to pick it up. Did you mean they picked it up directly from the Kenner source or from an office of yours or something?
Broc - we actually went to the Kenner employee's home to pick it up. In fact, somewhere I have a pic of that whole collection I took as a group. If I can find it, I'll post it so everyone can see.
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Broc
Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
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Bill_Wills wrote:
Broc wrote:
Thanks for the clarification Jordan and permission to post the pic. That said, I'm afraid if I post it here it will only confuse people about what pieces are real and which ones are fake. Since all of the other pics in this thread are to show the fakes, I would hate to cause more problems and confusion.
That's good to know about Bill and Tracey going to pick it up. Did you mean they picked it up directly from the Kenner source or from an office of yours or something?
Broc - we actually went to the Kenner employee's home to pick it up. In fact, somewhere I have a pic of that whole collection I took as a group. If I can find it, I'll post it so everyone can see.
Thanks for the info Bill. It's much appreciated. It would be interesting to see the pic of the whole collection. Thanks in advance.
--------------------
Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)
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Bill_Wills
Reged: 10/31/01
Loc: Monroe, OH
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Here's the photo.
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JohnA
Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
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acedecade75 wrote:
On another note, did anyone besides me get an Admiral Screed from him? It sounds like he very well may have had an authentic one at some point. However, it looks like he sold me a bad one. I wonder if he might still have a real Screed.
You, another guy from RS who can speak up if he wants but pics have been seen, I had an unpainted head and torso and another guy has a complete painted one that he said he did not buy from Scott BUT it shares the same bloated features and he's looking into the history to find out if who he purchased it from purchased from Scott. That's a LOT of Screeds.
John
--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character
-Shai Hulud
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KevinA
Reged: 08/29/05
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Bill_Wills wrote:
Cool, there is the 4-LOM I am after next. Kinda cool to find out its origins, I hadn't heard this story before. That pic is amazing....if any knows his whereabouts,PM please!
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Bill_Wills
Reged: 10/31/01
Loc: Monroe, OH
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Darkside_Apprentice wrote:
And the hits keep on coming I picked up the painted bespin guard with the broken hand. I havent had the heart to take it out to give it a good once over yet. WOuld be nice if someone has history on the piece beyond Scott but Im not holding my breath. Jeez who would go out of the way to do a fake with a broken hand. and I though gave it some authenticity
Is it the one in the picture I posted? If so, you're in luck because it's 100% authentic.
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Sems_Fir
Reged: 10/25/00
Loc: Connecticut
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acedecade75 wrote:
It's interesting to see hear about Scott's carded Chituhr. He tried to sell me some of his carded EWOKS awhile back in addition to the other pieces I got from him. Since this situation has come to light, I've been wonderind if they were authentic or not.
Another interesting thing is that he once mentioned to me that he knew of a second carded Morag that was not known in "the collecting circle".
On another note, did anyone besides me get an Admiral Screed from him? It sounds like he very well may have had an authentic one at some point. However, it looks like he sold me a bad one. I wonder if he might still have a real Screed.
I can confirm that there is a second carded Morag. Tom Derby had it for sale. I will post a pic later.
Robert
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Broc
Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
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Thanks for posting the pic, Bill. That is the same pic I have from that find. I do believe the Black Bespin Guard Greg is talking about is indeed the one in that pic.
--------------------
Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)
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HollywoodHeroes
Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
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KevinA-
That 4-LOM is already in a collection... locked up tighter than Lindsay Lohan's grip on a bag of crack. There is just no prying it away.
Feel safe in knowing its gone to a good home.
Jordan
--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com
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KevinA
Reged: 08/29/05
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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haha, thats a tight grip. Thanks Jordan. My wife and my bank account thank whoever has this locked up as well!
EDIT -
Jeez I actually did talk to the owner about this already and how it isn't going anywhere. I just forgot - too many nights of headbutts and Crown Royal!
Edited by KevinA (09/23/10 03:11 PM)
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Jason_West
Reged: 03/08/02
Loc: Northern Virginia
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Mattias_Rendahl wrote:
Todd_Hudson wrote:
Jason_West wrote:
Here is a list of "prototypes" Scott sold in July 2004.
lando hand painted first shot. $200 (sold)
Lumat first shot with different color bag $150
Bib Fortuna first shot production colors $165 (sold)
Five unproduced e-woks.
2- chief chirpas
2-paploo
1- Bondo
Adm. Screed
Gaff
Hand painted DT Luke
Hand painted DT Ben
stormtrooper
jawa
Tusken Raider
Personally, I will deem all of them fake. I wanted to post this list, in case someone might have purchased any of these. Unfortunately, no pictures were posted.
I do believe the Lando and Lumat First shots where real, they came from me...cant say for sure about anything else.
Todd
And I now own that Lumat. Most of the items on that sale list are first shots and genuine. Like have been stated before, Scott has owned many legit pieces as well, so need to get worried about everything. And first shots are much more difficult to fake, but after this mess I would of course tripple check everything that comes from him.
The DT Luke and Ben both came from Steve Denny in the first place, then Tom brokered them via CCC, Justin Kerns bought them, then Jason Zapp, then Scott and then some other people. The Luke was last seen in Gus & Duncan's prototype book
Mattias
Mattias and Todd,
Thank you for the information. I will single out the Jawa then.
Just curious, has anyone seen pictures of the jawa from this sale?
--------------------
Jason West
Collection and Blog: MADBROWNZ
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
|
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Bill_Wills wrote:
Broc wrote:
Thanks for the clarification Jordan and permission to post the pic. That said, I'm afraid if I post it here it will only confuse people about what pieces are real and which ones are fake. Since all of the other pics in this thread are to show the fakes, I would hate to cause more problems and confusion.
That's good to know about Bill and Tracey going to pick it up. Did you mean they picked it up directly from the Kenner source or from an office of yours or something?
Broc - we actually went to the Kenner employee's home to pick it up. In fact, somewhere I have a pic of that whole collection I took as a group. If I can find it, I'll post it so everyone can see.
This Hollywood Heroes find (which Bill and Tracey picked up) is another one to add to my earlier list of legit sources.
Hollywood Heroes has had at least a couple of good HC finds. You should be able to use old photos of those finds to help track legit pieces that are out there.
Edited by ronsalvatore (09/23/10 06:07 PM)
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HollywoodHeroes
Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
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Ron-
Just to clarify your comments and information, this was NOT a Bill/Tracey find. This was 100% a Jordan/Hollywood Heroes deal.
I think its important to get the specifics correct when dealing with this issue. More to the point, it should be noted that Hollywood Heroes has been a major source of the legit Hardcopies found over the past years.
Hope this helps-
Jordan
--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com
Edited by HollywoodHeroes (09/23/10 04:53 PM)
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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Shane Turgeon wrote:
Bill_McBride wrote:
I did not personally deal with Scott for the reasons a lot of the other guys have pointed out. However, I will gladly join Arnaud and contribute to any legal fund that might be necessary. I am also truly sorry for anyone involved.
I had m own reasons for never dealing with Scott, and i'm glad i went with my gut on it all, but count me in for being willing to contribute some money towards the costs of a lawsuit or criminal investigation.
Ron, has the poster fraud case gone to court yet? It would be interesting to know the outcome of that as it shares many similarities with this fraud in terms of volume, dollar amounts and the number of well-known and knowledgeable collectors who were defrauded.
Here's a link to some info:
Link
Looks like there hasn't been much action. One claim has been stayed because the alleged mastermind filed for bankruptcy.
The poster fraud is similar in some respects, but it supposedly involved over 1 million...so a lot more money was at stake.
Also, I think it was a lot easier to "prove" that Haggard was involved in making those frauds. They identified the restorer who collaborated with him, and the evidence indicating fakery was irrefutable: a fake poster glued over another poster. I'm not sure this is as open-and-closed as that.
--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
|
|
HollywoodHeroes wrote:
Ron-
Just to clarify your comments and information, this was NOT a Bill/Tracey find. This was 100% a Jordan/Hollywood Heroes deal.
I think its important to get the specifics correct when dealing with this issue. More to the point, it should be noted that Hollywood Heroes has been a major source of the legit Hardcopies found over the past years.
Hope this helps-
Jordan
Jordan,
Fair enough.
I'll even give you a pass and not make too much of the fact that you were helping Scott to sell his dodgy stuff.
--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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Here's a good round-up of info on the recent poster fraud that Shane was referring to. Similar in some respects to this situation.
http://www.originalprop.com/blog/2009/09/13/charges-of-fraud-rock-the-collectible-movie-poster-market-and-hobby/
--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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Sems_Fir
Reged: 10/25/00
Loc: Connecticut
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Here's a couple of photos for this thread.
First, this is the image of the carded Morag Tom Derby sent to me in December of 2000. I was thinking of purchasing it as well. If memory serves me the price was the same as the Chituhr and was from Steve Denny.
The second and third images are similar to the one Bill posted earlier from the find:
Robert
www.behindthetoys.com
Edited by Sems_Fir (09/23/10 07:15 PM)
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HollywoodHeroes
Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
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Ron-
I'll address this right now and get it out in the open... this is a very strong accusation that you have made and it's simply untrue. I think you have taken a big leap saying something like this.
Inside the RS forums, many know of our somewhat rocky and shall I say "complicated" history. So, they would probably brush this off as your drudging up the past, and not think much of it.
However, there are many new readers here and new collectors who might not know of our past, and may read more into this.. and thereby think that I am somehow affiliated with selling these questionable hardcopies.
Scott took space at my booth. He was there and worked the show with collectors. I answered questions when I could. When something was not within the realm of my knowledge.. I told them so and pointed them to Scott. End of story. Furthermore, I find it even more interesting that you comment on my sales when you were not even at my booth at CV.
I would strongly suggest that you seriously rethink your accusations and keep me out of any of these hardcopy sales. This is YOUR free pass Ron... any further comments like this would be grounds for liable.
Congratulations... in one post you have just brought down the integrity of the thread. Seriously, I think you look foolish for even making a comment like this.
I have been more than honest and forthright to all collectors who have contacted me, and continue to work with many people behind the scenes. I have answered phone calls, returned E-mails, and checked dates and notes... all in the good interest of the hobby.
If anyone has any questions, they can contact me via E-mail.
Best-
Jordan
--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com
Edited by HollywoodHeroes (09/23/10 07:22 PM)
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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HollywoodHeroes wrote:
Ron-
I'll address this right now and get it out in the open... this is a very strong accusation that you have made and it's simply untrue. I think you have taken a big leap saying something like this.
Inside the RS forums, many know of our somewhat rocky and shall I say "complicated" history. So, they would probably brush this off as your drudging up the past, and not think much of it.
However, there are many new readers here and new collectors who might not know of our past, and may read more into this.. and thereby think that I am somehow affiliated with selling these questionable hardcopies.
Scott took space at my booth. He was there and worked the show with collectors. I answered questions when I could. When something was not within the realm of my knowledge.. I told them so and pointed them to Scott. End of story. Furthermore, I find it even more interesting that you comment on my sales when you were not even at my booth at CV.
I would strongly suggest that you seriously rethink your accusations and keep me out of any of these hardcopy sales. This is YOUR free pass Ron... any further comments like this would be grounds for liable.
Congratulations... in one post you have just brought down the integrity of the thread. Seriously, I think you look foolish for even making a comment like this.
I have been more than honest and forthright to all collectors who have contacted me, and continue to work with many people behind the scenes. I have answered phone calls, returned E-mails, and checked dates and notes... all in the good interest of the hobby.
If anyone has any questions, they can contact me via E-mail.
Best-
Jordan
I think everyone at CV saw that he had stuff at your booth, Jordan. It was front and center.
Are you alleging that I'm lying about this?
I'll take you at your word that you had no involvement beyond presenting his stuff in your display case.
--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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Bill_McBride
Reged: 05/01/01
Loc: Washington DC
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tapuvae wrote:
Darkside_Apprentice wrote:
And the hits keep on coming I picked up the painted bespin guard with the broken hand. I havent had the heart to take it out to give it a good once over yet. WOuld be nice if someone has history on the piece beyond Scott but Im not holding my breath. Jeez who would go out of the way to do a fake with a broken hand. and I though gave it some authenticity
You've answered your own question there. Too perfect is a red flag.
Actually, the opposite is true. Authentic HC's main feature is the level of detail or "sharpness". If there was an imperfection in the original part, it would simply be discarded, or filled in (as with some 4-ups). Even the single limbs and various parts I have seen are, without exception, razor sharp in detail.
I also feel for you with a questionable piece such as the BG. It came from a now "suspect" source, and I can certainly appreciate the emotion that goes behind that. I would really encourage everyone to use the resources which are being openly provided to you. Specifically, Chris and Tom are working on these first hand. You can also post pics here, and as you can see you will get feedback.
I know this situation is a Godzilla-sized PITA, but the approach to resolving this should be as detailed, and thorough as possible. So instead of people rushing to conclusions, or generalizations, let's keep our head(s) on.
There are also people here which are more than happy to give any assistance that someone would require, or have the resources to at least point them in the right direction.
Bill
--------------------
Buying Rare and Unusual Darth Vader Items; Vintage and New
Check out The Darth Vader Toy Museum at: www.sithtoys.com
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jaymassive619
Reged: 04/10/08
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I have to say this thread has been deeply distressing and i genuinely hope everyone can pull together on this and make sure that this guy is held accountable for this terrible scam
I wanted to post earlier but I guess I just could find the words to express my sadness for all the guys’ effected many of whom have helped me on numerous occasions as well as folk I consider friends and also some of the hobbies biggest contributors who I have nothing but the highest respect for.
I also want to note that people like JohnA who are shouldering the cost for items they sold on unwittingly deserve the high respect and also guys like Arnuad offering to chip into legal costs even though he wasn’t effected is a testament to them. I genuinely feel that the strong sense of community vintage star wars collectors have will ultimately help people pull through this terrible mess.
To just respond to Jordan I want to start by apologising if I make incorrect assumptions. (If I have I will happily amend my post to reflect confirm facts)
Can I just clarify Jordan did Scott sell some of these fakes through Hollywood Heroes at C5 again I may be off base but weren’t some of them listed via the HH website prior to the event and that you were acting in effect as a broker on some of these items i.e. taking a percent of the sales for advertising them and the HH Brand effectively adding legitimacy / security to the products on offer?
If the above is true (again I’m only going off what I have read and seen so far and also speaking with collectors who attended C5) then surely HH would have a moral responsibility to refund customers affected and then chase Scott to recoup the costs?
In effect it’s similar to what JohnA and others have done (although they certainly didn’t have to in their cases). Accountings for the fact that if these items were sold through / brokered by your business wouldn’t that mean this is the only fair course of action?
Again I will add if I have got things mixed up or incorrect I apologise and will certainly amend this post if required.
Cheers Jay
--------------------
Want to know about Weapon and Accessory Variants? Have you tried The Imperial Gunnery
Edited by jaymassive619 (09/23/10 08:02 PM)
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HollywoodHeroes
Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
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Yes Ron-
A questionable piece was removed the second day when it was brought to me attention by another collector. This was done first thing in the morning.
My involvement was minimal. I purchased a case specifically for Scott to display his items. Scott set them in the case at at the beginning of the show, and cleared them at the end of the day.
I did not look closely at any of the items, because I had no reason to doubt them at the show. When I personally handled items, it was little more than taking them out of the case and presenting them to collectors.
Most importantly, when someone asked questions such as "Jordan, whats the story with that item," or "Hey, can you tell me what that is exactly?" I referred them to Scott. I remember saying that I sounded like a broken record player stating the same thing over and over... "talk to Scott, you would have to ask Scott that question."
Pieces were looked at carefully by collectors. At times, up to three different people would look at the same item. All were satisfied with what they were purchasing... all seemed content and happy.
In short: Hollywood Heroes offered retail space to a client. For the record... FOUR additional collectors/Kenner clients showcased their items at the Hollywood Heroes booth. There were items from the current 12" line and micro lines, as well as vintage plush and prototype items.
I think its unfair saying that by allowing someone retail space to sell their wares, that I knowingly and willfully had involvement in the selling of these hardcopies.
One final note... to the best of my knowledge (and I am sure that I would have heard differently by now) everyone was happy with their purchases from the Hollywood Heroes booth. I know people saw Scott privately off the show floor.. but that is a different deal.
I hope this clears up any confusion for anyone. If there are any collectors who need me or wish to contact me please do so : jordan@hollywoodheroes.com
Thanks so much
Jordan
--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com
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HollywoodHeroes
Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
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Hi Jay-
Thanks for your questions, I would love to answer them.
No. To the best of my knowledge no dubious hardcopies were sold at CV. If they were I:
A. Would have heard about them by now.
b. Would have granted full refunds.
If memory serves me, there were only a few hardcopies showcased in the glass booth: Weequay, Wicket, Tie Pilot, Bald Emperor, Lando
I think that's it.
Hollywood Heroes brokered a Luke Bespin about 5 years ago for another collector. It has been traced back to Scott and we are granting a full refund, no questions asked.
Hope this helps!
All the best-
Jordan
--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com
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jaymassive619
Reged: 04/10/08
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HollywoodHeroes wrote:
Hi Jay-
Thanks for your questions, I would love to answer them.
No. To the best of my knowledge no dubious hardcopies were sold at CV. If they were I:
A. Would have heard about them by now.
b. Would have granted full refunds.
If memory serves me, there were only a few hardcopies showcased in the glass booth: Weequay, Wicket, Tie Pilot, Bald Emperor, Lando
I think that's it.
Hollywood Heroes brokered a Luke Bespin about 5 years ago for another collector. It has been traced back to Scott and we are granting a full refund, no questions asked.
Hope this helps!
All the best-
Jordan
Thanks Jordan for the reply buddy many will agree with something as explosive as this rumor mills / discussions etc can end up in overdrive at times which is why i felt is was best to ask / clarify these points directly
Its good to hear that if anyone was effected with items that you brokered then Hollywood Heroes adopts a no questions asked refund policy and the fact you put right a deal that you brokered 5 years ago is testement to the sounds principles that Hollywood Heroes stands for
Cheers Jay
--------------------
Want to know about Weapon and Accessory Variants? Have you tried The Imperial Gunnery
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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HollywoodHeroes wrote:
Yes Ron-
A questionable piece was removed the second day when it was brought to me attention by another collector. This was done first thing in the morning.
My involvement was minimal. I purchased a case specifically for Scott to display his items. Scott set them in the case at at the beginning of the show, and cleared them at the end of the day.
I did not look closely at any of the items, because I had no reason to doubt them at the show. When I personally handled items, it was little more than taking them out of the case and presenting them to collectors.
Most importantly, when someone asked questions such as "Jordan, whats the story with that item," or "Hey, can you tell me what that is exactly?" I referred them to Scott. I remember saying that I sounded like a broken record player stating the same thing over and over... "talk to Scott, you would have to ask Scott that question."
Pieces were looked at carefully by collectors. At times, up to three different people would look at the same item. All were satisfied with what they were purchasing... all seemed content and happy.
In short: Hollywood Heroes offered retail space to a client. For the record... FOUR additional collectors/Kenner clients showcased their items at the Hollywood Heroes booth. There were items from the current 12" line and micro lines, as well as vintage plush and prototype items.
I think its unfair saying that by allowing someone retail space to sell their wares, that I knowingly and willfully had involvement in the selling of these hardcopies.
One final note... to the best of my knowledge (and I am sure that I would have heard differently by now) everyone was happy with their purchases from the Hollywood Heroes booth. I know people saw Scott privately off the show floor.. but that is a different deal.
I hope this clears up any confusion for anyone. If there are any collectors who need me or wish to contact me please do so : jordan@hollywoodheroes.com
Thanks so much
Jordan
Like I said. I'll take you at your word. I legitimately don't think you were involved at all in the forgery aspects of this. I think it's more likely you got suckered along with everyone else.
But I think you're doing yourself a disservice as a known dealer when you disassociate yourself from the clients you have represented and the items those clients have offered for sale via your services -- even if those services involved nothing more than the provision of display real estate.
Surely you vet the clients and products you represent, right? I think that's what your customers assume. I also assume that you, your clients and your customers attach some kind of significance to the HH brand.
I'm really not trying to give you a hard time (okay, I am a little bit); I'm mostly trying to point out that your "no involvement" position doesn't square with your rep as a well-known dealer. I, for one, expect well-known dealers to stand up for their clients, their services and their products.
Anyway, I do hope that you'll go out of your way to set the record straight with anyone who saw that stuff at your booth or on your site and was persuaded to believe it was legit. It might be a good idea to point those individuals to this thread so they can get brushed up.
I also trust that if you're still in contact with Scott and/or are in possession of some of his stuff, you'll do everything you can to make things right.
--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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tapuvae
Reged: 12/20/03
Loc: us
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Bill_McBride wrote:
tapuvae wrote:
Darkside_Apprentice wrote:
And the hits keep on coming I picked up the painted bespin guard with the broken hand. I havent had the heart to take it out to give it a good once over yet. WOuld be nice if someone has history on the piece beyond Scott but Im not holding my breath. Jeez who would go out of the way to do a fake with a broken hand. and I though gave it some authenticity
You've answered your own question there. Too perfect is a red flag.
Actually, the opposite is true. Authentic HC's main feature is the level of detail or "sharpness". If there was an imperfection in the original part, it would simply be discarded, or filled in (as with some 4-ups). Even the single limbs and various parts I have seen are, without exception, razor sharp in detail.
I also feel for you with a questionable piece such as the BG. It came from a now "suspect" source, and I can certainly appreciate the emotion that goes behind that. I would really encourage everyone to use the resources which are being openly provided to you. Specifically, Chris and Tom are working on these first hand. You can also post pics here, and as you can see you will get feedback.
I know this situation is a Godzilla-sized PITA, but the approach to resolving this should be as detailed, and thorough as possible. So instead of people rushing to conclusions, or generalizations, let's keep our head(s) on.
There are also people here which are more than happy to give any assistance that someone would require, or have the resources to at least point them in the right direction.
Bill
For the sake of clarity I was referring to the condition of an item not its quality. The missing hand, that is something that makes for a good story if you are trying to sell something fake. Its like foxing a piece or sun striking it on purpose, add a little vinegar, etc. Anyway, in this case it looks like the missing hand is good.
Edited by tapuvae (09/23/10 08:32 PM)
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Jetson
Reged: 09/09/09
Loc: Saratoga Springs, NY
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Michael_Ritter wrote:
I am gald to see this finally come to light. I had heard rumblings of this a while before CV and saw confirmation at CV. I really do feel bad for all the victims in this and hope this can be settled postively (though I doubt it unfortunately). Perhaps it might be worthwhile to contact a lawyer and/or law enforcement and see if there is any position that can be taken here. And since many of these 'prototypes' crossed state lines I assume by USPS, was there any mail fraud committed. Where are our lawyers in training, Tommy and Isaac?
Mike
Truly sorry to hear about this situation, especially since I love following prototypes. The situation makes me ill.
Now that I have gotten through the thread more, I can edit this message to say that I for one would contribute to any legal fund as I believe Arnaud and Bill have suggested. The reason I would be willing to contribute is that things like this situation affect the hobby and us all in general. If we took someone's head off (not literally of course) it should send a message to others who would pull this kind of crap.
I would even do a monthly amount.
Regards,
JT
--------------------
Disclaimer: No vintage MOCs (or baggies) were harmed during the preparation of this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe3TWZ_3qRg&feature=player_embedded#!
[url=http://powerofthetoys.com/afa]
Edited by Jetson (09/23/10 09:00 PM)
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Ty
Reged: 06/29/00
Loc: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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I really wanted to reply to this thread as well but I don't really have anything to add other than that I feel the same as others who have posted their anger/disgust/disappointment over this situation, this is the kind of thing that we cannot just "forgive and forget"; it hurts the entire hobby which in turn effects us all in some capacity, and those that it is directly effecting, I'm really sorry this [censored] is happening to you. This community is like a family, we've all been here now for quite a long time and pretty much 97%+ of the people I've dealt with are hardworking honest people who'd hand over their shirt should the situation warrant it. Anyhow, point is I hope there is some resolution to all of this. Whenever someone I know gets screwed over I take it rather personally and will not stand for it. Refunds and major apologies are owed here, anything less is not enough. I'm not even sure if that would be enough, but it'd be a good start.
You can't just whip up a batch of fake prototypes, sell them and expect not to get caught.
--------------------
Reeyees-Tessek
tjr82@hotmail.com
...Impatiently waiting for the 30th anniversary of ROTJ! I want more toys!
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tapuvae
Reged: 12/20/03
Loc: us
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ronsalvatore wrote:
HollywoodHeroes wrote:
Yes Ron-
A questionable piece was removed the second day when it was brought to me attention by another collector. This was done first thing in the morning.
My involvement was minimal. I purchased a case specifically for Scott to display his items. Scott set them in the case at at the beginning of the show, and cleared them at the end of the day.
I did not look closely at any of the items, because I had no reason to doubt them at the show. When I personally handled items, it was little more than taking them out of the case and presenting them to collectors.
Most importantly, when someone asked questions such as "Jordan, whats the story with that item," or "Hey, can you tell me what that is exactly?" I referred them to Scott. I remember saying that I sounded like a broken record player stating the same thing over and over... "talk to Scott, you would have to ask Scott that question."
Pieces were looked at carefully by collectors. At times, up to three different people would look at the same item. All were satisfied with what they were purchasing... all seemed content and happy.
In short: Hollywood Heroes offered retail space to a client. For the record... FOUR additional collectors/Kenner clients showcased their items at the Hollywood Heroes booth. There were items from the current 12" line and micro lines, as well as vintage plush and prototype items.
I think its unfair saying that by allowing someone retail space to sell their wares, that I knowingly and willfully had involvement in the selling of these hardcopies.
One final note... to the best of my knowledge (and I am sure that I would have heard differently by now) everyone was happy with their purchases from the Hollywood Heroes booth. I know people saw Scott privately off the show floor.. but that is a different deal.
I hope this clears up any confusion for anyone. If there are any collectors who need me or wish to contact me please do so : jordan@hollywoodheroes.com
Thanks so much
Jordan
Like I said. I'll take you at your word. I legitimately don't think you were involved at all in the forgery aspects of this. I think it's more likely you got suckered along with everyone else.
But I think you're doing yourself a disservice as a known dealer when you disassociate yourself from the clients you have represented and the items those clients have offered for sale via your services -- even if those services involved nothing more than the provision of display real estate.
Surely you vet the clients and products you represent, right? I think that's what your customers assume. I also assume that you, your clients and your customers attach some kind of significance to the HH brand.
I'm really not trying to give you a hard time (okay, I am a little bit); I'm mostly trying to point out that your "no involvement" position doesn't square with your rep as a well-known dealer. I, for one, expect well-known dealers to stand up for their clients, their services and their products.
Anyway, I do hope that you'll go out of your way to set the record straight with anyone who saw that stuff at your booth or on your site and was persuaded to believe it was legit. It might be a good idea to point those individuals to this thread so they can get brushed up.
I also trust that if you're still in contact with Scott and/or are in possession of some of his stuff, you'll do everything you can to make things right.
In other collecting arenas big shows are vetted by a committee of, get this, other dealers at the show. It is very political and can get nasty when people pull other people's pieces to protect the client base that attends. That is the promoter protecting their brand.
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Ty
Reged: 06/29/00
Loc: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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And my post was not pointed at you Jordan. It was aimed straight at Scott.
--------------------
Reeyees-Tessek
tjr82@hotmail.com
...Impatiently waiting for the 30th anniversary of ROTJ! I want more toys!
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phidias_barrios
Reged: 12/14/05
Loc: los angeles
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HollywoodHeroes wrote:
Hollywood Heroes brokered a Luke Bespin about 5 years ago for another collector. It has been traced back to Scott and we are granting a full refund, no questions asked.
Hope this helps!
All the best-
Jordan
Just to let everyone know, this was the ESB hardcopy I was referring to in my earlier response to this thread.
I bought it from Jordan last year not knowing it traced back to Scott. One of its legs is pictured in ChrisG's black light pic.
I appreciate that Jordan and I are resolving the situation.
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HollywoodHeroes
Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
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Ron-
Fair enough.
I do believe that everyone who purchased a significant dollar amount at the show.. has been here. I mean, it was like a RS reunion at the HH booth. Everyone knew everyone else.
And yes.. I am in contact with Scott every single day. For the record... I consider him a friend. I enjoy speaking with him and the company of his family. And, while not many folks are saying nice things about him currently.. I will say this. When I called him and expressed my frustration over my lack of quality vintage toys for the show all he said was.. "Tell me what you need.. I'm there... take all my playsets and ships" He offered to help, and was spot on with his committment.
Right now, Hollywood Heroes is focusing on brokering the remainder of Scott's collection. It may take months, it may take years.
While I can't go into too many details I will say that my hands are somewhat tied, legally, as to what is to be sold and where.
I walk a proverbial tightrope everyday of morality and legality. On one hand, I have the masses of collectors who are looking for satisfaction. On the other hand, I have a frustrated client is wants his collection sold.
Legally, I can not decide who gets the money. It has to go to Scott or his benefactors of choice. This is not Robin Hood, and I can not steal from the Rich and give to the Poor.
I know what you're thinking... I'm putting a TARGET on my back.
Trust me, right now, Hollywood Heroes is the only viable outlet for this collection. If it does not go through our company... it will never see the light of day.
This is complete honesty and transparency here people... this is truth. My plan is sell the collection and advise Scott on what to do with the money. However, I can't make him.
And Ron yes, I do believe you know that I am working diligently behind the scenes with all parties to somehow make this community whole again.
Best to all,
Jordan
--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com
Edited by HollywoodHeroes (09/23/10 08:47 PM)
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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phidias_barrios wrote:
HollywoodHeroes wrote:
Hollywood Heroes brokered a Luke Bespin about 5 years ago for another collector. It has been traced back to Scott and we are granting a full refund, no questions asked.
Hope this helps!
All the best-
Jordan
Just to let everyone know, this was the ESB hardcopy I was referring to in my earlier response to this thread.
I bought it from Jordan last year not knowing it traced back to Scott. One of its legs is pictured in ChrisG's black light pic.
I appreciate that Jordan and I are resolving the situation.
Glad to know Jordan gave you a refund. Definitely the right thing to do.
--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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CloudCity_Gangzr
Reged: 04/26/07
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HollywoodHeroes wrote:
I walk a proverbial tightrope everyday of morality and legality. On one hand, I have the masses of collectors who are looking for satisfaction. On the other hand, I have a frustrated client is wants his collection sold.
Seems like an easy choice to me.
HollywoodHeroes wrote:
Legally, I can not decide who gets the money. It has to go to Scott or his benefactors of choice. This is not Robin Hood, and I can not steal from the Rich and give to the Poor.
Yeah? Do you think Scott is going to call the police?
HollywoodHeroes wrote:
I know what you're thinking... I'm putting a TARGET on my back.
You did, indeed. I have always associated you with Scott and that association has nothing to do with C5.
-Chad
Edited by CloudCity_Gangzr (09/23/10 09:33 PM)
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HollywoodHeroes
Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
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Chad-
I respect your feelings.
The fact remains, that I am still going to do everything in my power to make sure folks come out of this whole.
Best to you,
Jordan
--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com
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michael_mensinger
Reged: 12/24/00
Loc: Wilmington, DE, USA
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Jordan wrote:
Quote:
If memory serves me, there were only a few hardcopies showcased in the glass booth: Weequay, Wicket, Tie Pilot, Bald Emperor, Lando
Jordan, in addition to what you've listed the following 3 3/4" figure hardcopies were also present in the case at Celebration 5:
- Nikto Unpainted Hardcopy (dynacast) (missing head)
- Leia Hoth Unpainted Hardcopy (carbalon) (missing head, but had clear first shot head)
- Lobot Unpainted Hardcopy (carbalon) (missing right arm)
- Luke Jedi - Alternate Sculpt - Unpainted Hardcopy (dynacast)(no head)
- Luke Bespin Painted Hardcopy (with swatches)
Of those five additions I've added to your list, I can absolutely trace three of the examples (Nikto, Leia Hoth, and Luke Jedi) of the five additions back to collectors who owned them before Scott, so those three should not be of concern. I can probably trace the Lobot back, but would need photos specifically showing the left leg's foot from the front and side view of the left leg. I can also trace most of the ones from your original list of five back to owners prior to Scott's ownership.
- Mike
--------------------
Buying vintage prototypes, snowtrooper rarities, & Kenner employee memorabilia
Edited by michael_mensinger (09/23/10 10:06 PM)
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HollywoodHeroes
Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
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Yes Mike, you are correct. Now, if memory serves me correct... the Leia Hoth was given to another collector via private trade.
Luke Bespin is not being sold.
Nikto from what I am told belonged to Huckabone. Luke Jedi belonged to another RS member. Weequay is Tracey, Lando is from my find back in mid 90s'...
Bald Emperor is from well known Earth sale yes?
Jordan
--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com
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CLONERZ
Reged: 03/23/04
Loc: united kingdom
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Can anyone please help with confirmation of originality on the protomoulded pieces brokered by Hollywood Heroes, or are they likely fakes too? Can anyone help clarify originality on a protomould, and help to differentiate a fake from an original, any key points and features to look for? Help appreciated. Jordan, can you clarify beyond a doubt the protomoulds are all well and good?
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WANTED: Vintage Luke skywalker hoth hardcopy,
POTF,ROTJ,ESB,and SW first shots,
Any Luke Hoth protos or first shots.
Vintage prototypes of any kind
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HollywoodHeroes
Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
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Hey-
To date, and to the best of my knowledge... no protomolded figures have come into question. They all looked fine at CV, and many people handled them. In fact, some were sold after CV as well.
It's tough to fake the protomolded stuff.
I do believe that all the protomolded figures were good. Yes, if you find out otherwise... and purchased from Hollywood Heroes, I will refund your money.
Jordan
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Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com
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wooten
Reged: 09/13/00
Loc: Galloway, OH
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JosephY wrote:
JohnA wrote:
Todd_Hudson wrote:
pretty sure no 6-ups have been faked...those would be pretty easy to tell plus I don't believe he even owns any 6-ups..unless he bought them in past couple of years.
Actually, much like the fake 3PO Micro wax that Basement Bounty Hunters had, and Scott had for sale at CV, he also owns a Han SC, which is one of the known pieces that BBN also faked.
John
Rob A confirmed that that the 3po wax was a BBH piece at CV.
Scott also had some micro 4 ups at CV that I heard people looking at and speculating over the potential for them to not be real at CV. I didn't really look at them as Micro's not my bag.
J
The following 4ups were in the case at CV
Bacta C3PO
Falcon R2D2
Luke Falling
Luke (no hand)
Han Stormtrooper
Stormtrooper painted and unpainted set
Rebel Soldier (carbalon)
There may have been another rebel solider. It's my understanding that all of them were Scott's save the R2D2, which belonged to another collector (and that happens to be the one I bought). Since I'm very interested in micro items, I handled all of them and I believe they were all ok save the 'carbalon' rebel soldier. I once owned a Vader that was obtained directly from a Kenner employee and this soldier was similar in color, but the material didn't feel right at all. Without doing more extensive testing, I couldn't say absolutely 100% for sure that it wasn't authentic, but my gut said it wasn't based on what I saw with my eyes. Believe me, I want a carbalon 4up quite a bit, but there's just no way I could feel ok about getting that piece. Everything else among the 4ups there seemed ok in color, texture and markings and I would've probably bought one of them on Sunday had the stuff remained at the booth.
For the record, any old timers will know that Jordan and I went at it quite a bit in the past. I had a question about a piece in my current collection, as well as a piece I owned and recently sold, both of which originated with Jordan at CIV. One of those I bought directly from Scott, so I had some concern, even though I felt good about the pieces based on my own eyes. To be safe, I contacted the guy I bought the other one from, who then contacted Jordan and within a couple hours, Jordan was responding to me. He couldn't have been more forthcoming and helpful in exchanging information about the pieces with me.
-John
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John Wooten
http://www.oswcc.com
http://www.theswca.com
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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HollywoodHeroes wrote:
Ron-
Fair enough.
I do believe that everyone who purchased a significant dollar amount at the show.. has been here. I mean, it was like a RS reunion at the HH booth. Everyone knew everyone else.
And yes.. I am in contact with Scott every single day. For the record... I consider him a friend. I enjoy speaking with him and the company of his family. And, while not many folks are saying nice things about him currently.. I will say this. When I called him and expressed my frustration over my lack of quality vintage toys for the show all he said was.. "Tell me what you need.. I'm there... take all my playsets and ships" He offered to help, and was spot on with his committment.
Right now, Hollywood Heroes is focusing on brokering the remainder of Scott's collection. It may take months, it may take years.
While I can't go into too many details I will say that my hands are somewhat tied, legally, as to what is to be sold and where.
I walk a proverbial tightrope everyday of morality and legality. On one hand, I have the masses of collectors who are looking for satisfaction. On the other hand, I have a frustrated client is wants his collection sold.
Legally, I can not decide who gets the money. It has to go to Scott or his benefactors of choice. This is not Robin Hood, and I can not steal from the Rich and give to the Poor.
I know what you're thinking... I'm putting a TARGET on my back.
Trust me, right now, Hollywood Heroes is the only viable outlet for this collection. If it does not go through our company... it will never see the light of day.
This is complete honesty and transparency here people... this is truth. My plan is sell the collection and advise Scott on what to do with the money. However, I can't make him.
And Ron yes, I do believe you know that I am working diligently behind the scenes with all parties to somehow make this community whole again.
Best to all,
Jordan
Very encouraging words to hear.
-chris
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The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
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Todd_Chamberlain
Reged: 11/16/01
Loc: Midwest
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As sorry as I was over the past few weeks to hear about the problems people have had with their transactions with Scott, I'm glad this is finally out in the open. As others have noted, although there can be appropriate limits to information sharing, it seems that Scott was able to leverage some of this to his advantage to keep this going so long. I understand people's desire to keep some things close to the vest, but it's important that people can feel there are fellow collectors to whom they can turn for advice when buying things outside their general experience. Collectors in all realms (posters, loose figures, MOC) rely on information that others have collected to increase their ability to pursue their interests.
This is hard blow to one segment of the collecting community, but I don't think it's fatal. Even if someone else comes along with better techniques, there are ways to check things out if one is really looking. Despite the high dollar amounts involved, I think the minimal amount of forgery in this area in the past caused people to let their guards down. With a little more attention to detail and sharing of information, these kinds of problems can hopefully be minimized in the future. Personally, I find it much more daunting to have to check each and ever accessory in a loose figure collection for authenticity when I can't confirm it's an intact vintage source.
Todd
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Todd Chamberlain
todd@toychamber.com
Collecting vintage Star Wars action figure items, Lili Ledy, vintage store displays, food-related promo items & misc.
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Sems_Fir
Reged: 10/25/00
Loc: Connecticut
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One more image to add to this thread is courtesy of the imperialgunnery. They posted an image of HH's booth and here's the picture. Of note, I see Joe Y had stuff for sale. 
Did anyone take pictures of what was displayed for sale?
Robert
www.behindthetoys.com
Edited by Sems_Fir (09/23/10 11:00 PM)
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Todd_Chamberlain
Reged: 11/16/01
Loc: Midwest
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HollywoodHeroes wrote:
Ron-
I'll address this right now and get it out in the open... this is a very strong accusation that you have made and it's simply untrue. I think you have taken a big leap saying something like this.
Inside the RS forums, many know of our somewhat rocky and shall I say "complicated" history. So, they would probably brush this off as your drudging up the past, and not think much of it.
However, there are many new readers here and new collectors who might not know of our past, and may read more into this.. and thereby think that I am somehow affiliated with selling these questionable hardcopies.
Scott took space at my booth. He was there and worked the show with collectors. I answered questions when I could. When something was not within the realm of my knowledge.. I told them so and pointed them to Scott. End of story. Furthermore, I find it even more interesting that you comment on my sales when you were not even at my booth at CV.
I would strongly suggest that you seriously rethink your accusations and keep me out of any of these hardcopy sales. This is YOUR free pass Ron... any further comments like this would be grounds for liable.
Congratulations... in one post you have just brought down the integrity of the thread. Seriously, I think you look foolish for even making a comment like this.
I have been more than honest and forthright to all collectors who have contacted me, and continue to work with many people behind the scenes. I have answered phone calls, returned E-mails, and checked dates and notes... all in the good interest of the hobby.
If anyone has any questions, they can contact me via E-mail.
Best-
Jordan
Jordan, to be very clear, I have heard nothing that has led me to believe you were knowingly involved in efforts by Scott to defraud buyers. I commend you for doing the right thing in getting Phidias his refund, and based on this I accept your word that you're trying to make this right for all Scott's buyers with problems. It seems disingenuous, though, to claim you had no involvement in trying to help Scott sell these pieces under the auspices of Hollywood Heroes. Several of the questionable pieces were posted on your site (now removed) before CV , which was linked from this Rebelscum thread as things being sold by Hollywood Heroes, with no reference to Scott. For me, if you really do question the authenticity of some of these pieces now, it would seem more credible if you simply acknowledged that you could have been more careful. Several experienced collectors have conceded in this thread that they were fooled on the authenticity of these pieces. It seems like you want to have it both ways: full credit for having pieces for sale if they're legitimate, and complete distance from them if they're found problematic. It seemed pretty clear from everyone I talked to that you were trying to help Scott sell these pieces, and that's all Ron said you were doing. To win a libel case, you'd have to prove his statement was false, and that seems like a hard case to make.
Todd
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Todd Chamberlain
todd@toychamber.com
Collecting vintage Star Wars action figure items, Lili Ledy, vintage store displays, food-related promo items & misc.
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Uncle_Gundy
Reged: 10/12/01
Loc: Asia
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http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=656453478#!/album.php?aid=199111&id=656453478
more pictures can be found in my album above
Uncle Gundy
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In case of emergency, breakdance
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michael_mensinger
Reged: 12/24/00
Loc: Wilmington, DE, USA
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Hi Jordan,
The info you typed looks correct to me, Jordan.
The photo that Bill showed earlier in this thread of Jordan's prototype find clearly shows the painted Lando. One can tell they are the same based on the white scuff near the left knee, which is clearly visibile in some of Derek's photos as well as the original find photos. When attempting to link painted hardcopies to origin photos (photos taken of various finds), it's always good to look for any kind of indentifying paint scrapes, etc.
After viewing Derek's photos, I can additionally confirm the Lobot as being one that traces back past Scott to Sandy Rivers & Chris G, which is shown here on the Archive. Again minor characteristics, in Lobot's case the filled casting flaw in the left foot, serve as excellent indentifying marks clearly visible in both Derek's photos and the Archive's.
I mention these two pieces as specific examples to help collectors that haven't been exposed to hardcopy material on a regular basis begin taking note of what might seem like minor characteristics of a certain piece in order to help match photographic provenance.
- Mike
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Buying vintage prototypes, snowtrooper rarities, & Kenner employee memorabilia
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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Before even breaking out the black light, it's important to look at the details of a piece as they can be enough to discern real from fraudulent. The black light then exposes yet another big difference.
Here are some photo comparisons of the bad Bossk figure, showing the fake hardcopy, an authentic hardcopy, and a production figure. The details on the authentic hardcopy are very crisp whereas on the fake they are distorted or lacking in detail.
You also get a glimpse into what can change between the original sculpting (hence an authentic hardcopy) and the final production figure. Details are lost in the process and things are changed by moldmakers. This is why there are so many tiny variations that people notice when they scrutinize action figures.
Note especially the circular feature on each leg and how the fake hardcopy is just like the production figure. Also the details of the torso are off. Lines aren't always straight or clean and overall it's just more muddy or blurry (for lack of a better term). Note the actual cross shape on the sternum of the authentic hardcopy as well as the look of the straps on the back. The lines are very clean and symmetric.
In regards to the legs they have disproportionately large feet and the bandoliers around the calves are wavy and crooked. On the authentic hardcopy the bandolier strap is nice and straight and the shape of the ammo is very consistent and clean. Compare those to the fake one and the difference is very apparent.
In order to get the size to be different from a production figure the mold was scaled up and that's almost surely where the distortion comes from. Beginning with a production figure is already a disadvantage, but scaling that up just makes it worse as you can see.
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The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
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CanadianCollectR
Reged: 10/12/02
Loc: Toronto, Canada
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What a terrible turn of events. I'm sorry for anyone who has been affected, and I too would donate money towards legal costs.
Here's hoping that justice is served swiftly and everyone gets their money back.
-Mike
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===================================
Figure & Vehicle of the Week Master List
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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Just to add to what Mike wrote, I can personally vouch for both the Lobot as well as the Leia Hoth shown in the photo as they once belonged to me and I got them directly from a former Kenner employee.
As I said initially, not every single item associated with Scott is being questioned but it's important to check the ownership history. In fact, this whole thing might be a good teaching tool for people to keep records of critical pieces. Nobody really cares where a 12-back Stormtrooper might trace back to, but with prototype material it's always wise to establish a provenance back to a legitimate source.
At a minimum I think it's important for people to know at least the year they obtained a piece and the previous owner. Personally I like to note the month as well and if I know a history then I'll write a brief chain of previous owners trying to tie a piece back as far as possible.
While you might not care about this (although I'd advise otherwise) the next owner might really care and not having this info could cost you a sale. These types of items really demand record-keeping at least at a basic level because it's their history with Kenner which is important.
I know it's not always possible to know this history, but you wouldn't believe what kind of info you'll pick up simply from talking with other collectors because they might know and are often willing to share.
-chris
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The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
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Creeping_Fear
Reged: 02/05/06
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Gimme a month or 2 and I can throw in some $$ to help with the legal funds guys.
Whomever is spearheading this PM me and I wll contact you when I can get some funds together to help
Out of darkness light will come and honor and love for the hobby will prevail!
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Fear the Lord!
My Feedback (245 transactions)
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Shane Turgeon
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: Edmonton, Alberta
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In addition to all of the information Chris has been posting about the level of detail in the differences between the HC stage, production and the fakes, people with pieces in question need to be especially thorough when looking over questionable pieces which may have originated from Scott.
As the owners of the pieces in question have yet to post in this thread, i will respect their anonymity and not mention exactly which item i'm referring to, but i spent close to an hour inspecting an unproduced Ewok accessory under bright light and a magnifying glass and in order to mask the reduction in detail from the casting of, what was presumed to be, a FS accessory, the perpetrator of this fraud used a razor blade or scalpel to carve some of the detail back in over the reduced details after the fact.
At first glance, it's tough to notice but upon close inspection, it's obvious that these details weren't created when the piece was cast and were done after the fact with a sharp object. Again, i can't stress enough the importance of discussing or sending questionable items to Chris or Tom to inspect. There were three of us going over that accessory for what was likely more than a couple of hours, all told, and it took all of our experience to determine that it was bogus.
So, in short, if some details are there but look off, look closely for evidence of the detail being added after the fact.
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Shane Turgeon
Author: The Force in the Flesh
www.theforceintheflesh.com
www.tattoosandtoys.com
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oceans11
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: sacramento
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Heard about this at CV as people started talking, and more and more came forth. These get togethers are really cool, but it seems they've also served to bring forth scams perpetrated by members of the community. CIV had rumblings of Billyboy and CV has the Scott McWilliams fiasco. If this trend continues, I fear for future Celebration events.
On a more serious note...
I have had one dealing with Scott. That was for my grail piece of the Top Toys Hard Copy Stormtrooper. Scott played middle man to the owner of the piece and myself, and helped the deal go through. This piece is thought to be legit as it originated prior to Scott. Yes, it did come from Pablo (may he rest in peace ), but it's still generally considered to be legit, and has rested in the hands of at least one other respected member of the community.
In the process of this purchase, Scott was very happy to show me a pic of the Kenner hard copy Stormtrooper that he had; of course asking that it not be shared with anyone.
It was not a great picture as it was unpainted and was black; supposedly making it hard to photograph. Weird I thought when I got the e-mail, as I knew most hard copies were dynacast (green) or carbalon (brown). I asked if it had been painted, and he stated that they hadn't. A bit after I had completed the purchase of the Top Toys one, Scott e-mailed me stating that he actually had two of the Kenner hard copies, they were identical, and was thinking of selling one. He offered it to me for $10,000.00; which was way too expensive for my modest budget. I thought it was strange that all of a sudden he had two of these figures. Legit.. not legit.. not so sure as the pic is pretty much c rap. I do find it odd that there would be two identical unpainted Kenner one's floating around. In light of this, I'm glad I didn't go after it (which I contemplated when I had sold my house and had some money; while in the middle of buying my new one).
In this he also sent me a pic of a shelf with a couple of micro Stormtrooper 4 ups, and some green dynacast hard copies, showing off what he had. (also possibly to dissuade any suspicion). He asked me not to show this off, but as this has come to light.. here it is:
I'm sorry to hear about this round of b.s. as it has affected some people here that are my friends. I'm hoping this get's sorted.
Don
who has another post coming in a moment about another aspect of this...
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Always looking for stormtrooper items-bootlegs, pre production, moc, foreign, etc
"In any other town they'd be the bad guys..."
Never confuse movement with action.
~ Ernest Hemingway ~
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oceans11
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: sacramento
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Ok, seperate posting as this tackles another aspect of this story, that I have opinion on. Not trying to sling any mud around here, and I have no personal stake in these proceedings, other than having friends screwed over by this deal. I also don't feel particularly "politcally correct" or like playing politics, so I'll tacke this as I normally do... bluntly and straight on.
I was at CV. Hollywood Heroes was at CV. I don't know Jordan personally, and I have absolutely no problems with him. I know he's helped out a few people I know and he's had some great items for sale in the past that were totally legit. That being said... Hollywood Heroes, being a respectble company, had allowed Scott to utilize some of their sales space in order to move his items. Whatever financial business arrangements were part of this agreement is none of my business. What this situation does is that it allows Scott to move fraudulent items under the guise of being "backed" by Hollywood Heroes. The mere presence of the Hollywood Heroes name lends credibility to items in their booth. I'm not saying that Jordan knowingly had any part of this scam. It's possible, and even probable, from all accouts that he didn't. Jordan's credibility is not in question here. I do believe that he should have had more of an active involvement in verifying that items being sold in his booth were actually what they were represented as, and not fraudulent. Especially for the dollar amounts associated with the hard copy figures.
Yes, it's true that a lot of Rebelscum members were there looking at these items on a daily basis. I'll even take Jordan at his word that he was steering people towards Scott for questions about his items. The aspect of this is that, while the Rebelscum community knows Jordan and Scott and knew that these items were being sold by Scott, the rest of the convention goers don't. These items were viewed by a large audience of people walking by, and were probably perceived as being "sold by Hollywood Heroes" because they were in Jordan's booth.
I am sure that Jordan will back anything that he sells. That also isn't in question. It's just my observation that these hard copies were used to promote Hollywood Heroes in the weeks leading up to the event, were advertised by Hollywood Heroes as being for sale in their booth at the event, and then when there are problems with legitmacy of them.. Hollywood Heroes washes their hands of the whole thing.
The other statement that causes me to ponder, while it's a bit late at night out here, is that Jordan in an earlier post, makes the statement that he considers Scott a friend, and is talking to him practically every day. Whilst I am sure that details are not for public consumption, Jordan claims to be trying to work things out behind the scenes and brokering Scott's collection.
I am sure that if any of my "friends" ever took advantage of our friendship and put my business (if I had one) in a spot where it's credibility was questioned, I would not be so sure of our friendship. Nor would I be quick to state to a community of people that he has taken thousands of dollars from through fraudulent means, that I consider him to be a friend and was having regular communication with him. Especially when he has failed to communicate with so many people who are trying to get in touch with him about their fake items. I would also want to punch them in the throat, but that's just me.
Hope that s crewing over all the members of the community, and people who considered him to be a friend, was worth it.
Don
really hoping that the sale of the collection is going into a fund to repay the tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars that will probably be needed in restitution.
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Always looking for stormtrooper items-bootlegs, pre production, moc, foreign, etc
"In any other town they'd be the bad guys..."
Never confuse movement with action.
~ Ernest Hemingway ~
Edited by oceans11 (09/24/10 02:39 AM)
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Darkside_Apprentice
Reged: 01/23/02
Loc: Far East
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I'd like to thank everyone who responded to my posts and it looks like my bespin guard is the real deal The money loss is one thing but I would have been gutted that something I felt was more unusual in the run of the character turned out to be fake.
I know this episode has reminded the entire community to be more 'vigilant' when purchasing protos in the future but it really is a sad day imho that we have to be on the 'look out' over the items we purchase in a hobby that is suppose to be fun. When I bought this item from Scott, I never dealt with him before and asked around re his rep. I got solid replies coupled with his 'impressive' collection that never in a million years would I doubt the legitimacy of his items. It's the same when I purchase from the more well known members on the boards, I rest easy in the transaction as there is no reason to doubt them.
Tapuvae - I actually hesitated when considering the bespin guard cause of the broken hand. But it did have a very crisp paint job and after sending pics to someone more knowledgeable decided to take the plunge.
BillWills - Yes yes yes it is the black bespin guard from the pic you posted. Thank you so much for posting it and it goes a long way to helping me verify what I got is not a fake.
Broc - dude thanks for the replies and looks like you are right that it was part of that early HC find before ending up in Scott's hands.
Jordan (HollywoodHeroes) - also thanks for confirming that was part of the early find by HH instead of 'originating' from Scott. I dont suppose you know where the white bespin guard went to do you?
My heart goes out to those with confirmed 'fake' pieces and definitely count me in to contribute towards any fund to help those who have suffered losses to seek legal recourse. I dont know bout the others but I was also a victim of the billyboy 'fakes' which I took over from someone else. No recourse there so maybe I caught a break this time round. Maybe we should go back to collecting basics - MOC production stuff 
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Always looking for:
vintage BESpin Security Guard White items esp. proofs/cromalins
potf2 Lando skiff and jawa prototypes.
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Leif_G
Reged: 02/01/06
Loc: BC, Canada
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Jordan - I have to respect your candor, and that you want to stand by a friend. You're probably right that helping Scott sell his collection might also be to the long term benefit of those who have lost money, and the hobby as a whole.
But I've been wondering something... Scott hasn't said anything in his own defense, that I've read. Apparently he's told some that other people are out to get him by ruining his reputation. It would seem to me that this would be the time for him to be more specific about this allegation, that is... if it's not BS. Or maybe explain why he still thinks these fake pieces are legitimate, despite evidence to the contrary. Do you think there's any chance he's going to step up and explain himself? Right now, his silence seems to be convicting him.
Leif
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Leif's Trade Feedback
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HollywoodHeroes
Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
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Leif and all,
Thanks for the comments and encouragement. You've said some wonderful and supportive things.. as well as encouraged a honest and open discussion. I appreciate it.
I fully admit that CV was not the optimal scenario (with regards to how I would have liked to control the sales). I have stated before that I did not look at Scotts stuff, not even in passing.
I apologize to the community for not taking the time to do this.
At any given point, there were up to five different people sticking their hands into that glass cabinet. I remember turning to someone else after the show saying, "That didnt go as smoothly as I hoped."
Next time, it will be different.
The fact of the matter is this; I dont know how much Star Wars pre-production stuff Scott has left. I know that I am focusing on his production items... because they are sealed and in very good condition.
To date, the the Rebelscum community has been very supportive. I appreciate this. I will continue to do everything to make this right... to the best of my power.
Todd-You are correct, we pulled some pieces from the site when people starting questioning them. Others, however, were sold. As I've stated before, I do not believe the protomolded items to be dubious in any way. If new information comes to light and I find out otherwise... they too will be removed.
Leif- I dont know why Scott has not addressed the issues personally. I am THE ONLY person he still speaks to. He says he has not seen this thread, nor will he look. I asked him if he wanted to know what it said, and he told me that he did not wish to hear about it.
I will say this, if I feel that the future credibility of Hollywood Heroes is going to come into question because of this brokerage deal... I'm out. I have worked way too hard over the past decade building a credible and trusted source in the community for prototypes, movie props and production toys. I have been honest and forthright on everything I have done regarding this collection. Refunds are being given, and questions are being answered in a timely fashion. The money I would have collected for this deal is not worth destroying all that I have worked for.
I'm taking a few days off for travel... so please don't interpret my silence as anything other than me simply... not being here.
I will try and update the community as soon as I can. Of course, if anyone has any questions of concerns you can always reach me via E-mail
Let's see..4:30 am. I guess this topic has taken enough of my time today.I'm going to try and get some quality time with my family.
Thanks again,
Jordan
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Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com
Edited by HollywoodHeroes (09/24/10 04:47 AM)
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cfawcett
Reged: 11/06/00
Loc: North Carolina
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I'll throw in my $.02 here. I think this thread needs to stick to the real culprit here: Scott. Jordan was duped just like a lot of us were. He's making things right for pieces he sold just like Broc and Alvarez are. All in all, I think he's handled a difficult situation very well.
I'm certain that if he gets Scott's collection to broker, the HCs will be *extremely* well authenticated. Ultimately, this might be the best thing for the entire community. If Jordan doesn't get the fakes, who knows where they might go. Hopefully, we'll be able to make sure the fakes stay out of the marketplace because of HH involvement.
Cj
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WTB: First Shot Warok, Palitoy ESB Han Hoth, PBP Han Hoth (ESB & ROTJ)
Vintage Toy Archive: http://www.12back.com
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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CLONERZ wrote:
Can anyone please help with confirmation of originality on the protomoulded pieces brokered by Hollywood Heroes, or are they likely fakes too? Can anyone help clarify originality on a protomould, and help to differentiate a fake from an original, any key points and features to look for? Help appreciated. Jordan, can you clarify beyond a doubt the protomoulds are all well and good?
I've seen photos of one supposed protomolded head, and it did not look good to me. Hard to say from the photos, but it looked like it had air pockets in it, which is a red flag where protomolded stuff is concerned. This was an item owned by a collector, and it came from Scott. Hopefully he'll send it to Chris to be looked at.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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Yehuda_K
Reged: 06/27/05
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my heart goes out to all of the collectors who have been taken.
One bad guy can do alot of damage.
But his bad acts brings out the real nature of our vintage community.
my hats off to Broc , John and all the others who not only took financial hits because of the scam, but continue to take further hits to make sure that anybody they dealt with are financially reimbursed.
And thanks to Chris Broc Tom and everyone else who are giving of their time and resources to set us back on track and weed out the diamonds from the dirt.
--------------------
http://powerofthetoys.com/afa
please check this out!
Edited by Yehuda_K (09/24/10 08:20 AM)
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DSJ_
Reged: 11/22/01
Loc: Edmonton, Alberta. Canada
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All I can say is holy kak! I picked up 3 items, 2 Ewok Preschool unpainted figure's & the Vader pointing 4-up.
The Latara figure has the copyright markings on the bottom of both feet but the Kneesaa does not, completely flat. Both were from 2 people at Jordan's set up.
As for the 4-up... *sigh*
I'll be in contact with Shane so he can have a look at them.
--------------------
And I Thought They Smelt Bad...On The Outside!
I've seen things...
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Bantha5
Reged: 11/05/00
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cfawcett wrote:
I'll throw in my $.02 here. I think this thread needs to stick to the real culprit here: Scott. Jordan was duped just like a lot of us were. He's making things right for pieces he sold just like Broc and Alvarez are. All in all, I think he's handled a difficult situation very well.
I'm certain that if he gets Scott's collection to broker, the HCs will be *extremely* well authenticated. Ultimately, this might be the best thing for the entire community. If Jordan doesn't get the fakes, who knows where they might go. Hopefully, we'll be able to make sure the fakes stay out of the marketplace because of HH involvement.
Cj
Good point CJ. Jordan has just found himself in a difficult position, but I feel he is doing his best, being forthright and up front about the whole situation. Ryan
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HollywoodHeroes
Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
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DSJ_ wrote:
All I can say is holy kak! I picked up 3 items, 2 Ewok Preschool unpainted figure's & the Vader pointing 4-up.
The Latara figure has the copyright markings on the bottom of both feet but the Kneesaa does not, completely flat. Both were from 2 people at Jordan's set up.
As for the 4-up... *sigh*
I'll be in contact with Shane so he can have a look at them.
I remember the Ewok Pre-School stuff. Those were first shots, not hardcopies. Some first shots do have dates on them.
Let me know about the Vader pointing. I do not believe that was an issue. If it was, I've got your back.
Jordan (who needs to really sign off before my wife hits me on the back of my head with a frying pan...)
--------------------
Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com
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SCARDS22
Reged: 06/13/00
Loc: Arizona Desert U.S.A.
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HollywoodHeroes wrote:
DSJ_ wrote:
All I can say is holy kak! I picked up 3 items, 2 Ewok Preschool unpainted figure's & the Vader pointing 4-up.
The Latara figure has the copyright markings on the bottom of both feet but the Kneesaa does not, completely flat. Both were from 2 people at Jordan's set up.
As for the 4-up... *sigh*
I'll be in contact with Shane so he can have a look at them.
I remember the Ewok Pre-School stuff. Those were first shots, not hardcopies. Some first shots do have dates on them.
Let me know about the Vader pointing. I do not believe that was an issue. If it was, I've got your back.
Jordan (who needs to really sign off before my wife hits me on the back of my head with a frying pan...)
Dang, Jordan! You didn't get much sleep last night!
Take care of yourself! I hope this all works out!
--------------------
CHEERS!,
Mike SCARDS22
"My lord, I've reached the main power generators. The shield will be down in moments, you may start your landing."
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Dave_Macleod
Reged: 07/19/03
Loc: Australia
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ChrisGeorgoulias wrote:
Before even breaking out the black light, it's important to look at the details of a piece as they can be enough to discern real from fraudulent.
In order to get the size to be different from a production figure the mold was scaled up and that's almost surely where the distortion comes from. Beginning with a production figure is already a disadvantage, but scaling that up just makes it worse as you can see.
Chris, Thanks for posting those comparision photos/discriptions, very informative. When looking at all three it is very easy to spot the fake.
-Dave.
--------------------
WTB: -KENNER:"SO" Vader Tie(mib)-GLASSLITE:Nave Imperial(mib)-POTF COINS:Luke-Tauntaun, Greedo,
Leia-Boushh, Sail Skiff, Tusken Raider.-LILY LEDY:12" Vader & Jawa (mib)
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wooten
Reged: 09/13/00
Loc: Galloway, OH
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Dave_Macleod wrote:
Chris, Thanks for posting those comparision photos/discriptions, very informative. When looking at all three it is very easy to spot the fake.
-Dave.
Yes, absolutely, Chris, thanks for going through all of this. It will be very difficult for someone to do something like this again and your images demonstrate the issues very well. This will help everyone understand what to look for in the future.
This one image says it all:
-John
--------------------
John Wooten
http://www.oswcc.com
http://www.theswca.com
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Bill_McBride
Reged: 05/01/01
Loc: Washington DC
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cfawcett wrote:
I'll throw in my $.02 here. I think this thread needs to stick to the real culprit here: Scott. Jordan was duped just like a lot of us were. He's making things right for pieces he sold just like Broc and Alvarez are. All in all, I think he's handled a difficult situation very well.
I'm certain that if he gets Scott's collection to broker, the HCs will be *extremely* well authenticated. Ultimately, this might be the best thing for the entire community. If Jordan doesn't get the fakes, who knows where they might go. Hopefully, we'll be able to make sure the fakes stay out of the marketplace because of HH involvement.
Cj
I couldn't agree more, we really need to keep this discussion on target. To that point:
This is a (large) comp. pic that I took using a standard production, "Hong Kong" CoO with one of my protomolded first shots. Even between these two you can see difference in detail.
As Ron pointed out; no air bubbles, no "pockets" (ha-ha, I get it .. it's a butt shot.. har har )
With HC's, the difference in these details is even more pronounced (to give a frame of reference)
Bill
~ Sorry about the huge pic and watermark .. LOL
--------------------
Buying Rare and Unusual Darth Vader Items; Vintage and New
Check out The Darth Vader Toy Museum at: www.sithtoys.com
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CLONERZ
Reged: 03/23/04
Loc: united kingdom
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ronsalvatore wrote:
CLONERZ wrote:
Can anyone please help with confirmation of originality on the protomoulded pieces brokered by Hollywood Heroes, or are they likely fakes too? Can anyone help clarify originality on a protomould, and help to differentiate a fake from an original, any key points and features to look for? Help appreciated. Jordan, can you clarify beyond a doubt the protomoulds are all well and good?
I've seen photos of one supposed protomolded head, and it did not look good to me. Hard to say from the photos, but it looked like it had air pockets in it, which is a red flag where protomolded stuff is concerned. This was an item owned by a collector, and it came from Scott. Hopefully he'll send it to Chris to be looked at.
Ron,
Thanks for your comment. I have contacted jordan, and he has assured me all the protomoulded figures were good. I have one here, cast in clear plastic, (handpainted over the top), but where it is scratched in a couple of places it is clear, indicating the arms and body sections are all clear plastic underneath the hand painted sections. I understand this is standard practice for protomoulds, but im all ears if something seems out of line. For people here's information, Jordan has replyed to my posting, and assured me all the protomoulds were good, and i trust him, but he has also stated that if there were any problems he will deal with it, no problem. Im holding on to the assurance that all the protomoulds were good, but as im fairly fresh to protomoulded figures, any help to substantiate authenticity is greatly appreciated.
--------------------
WANTED: Vintage Luke skywalker hoth hardcopy,
POTF,ROTJ,ESB,and SW first shots,
Any Luke Hoth protos or first shots.
Vintage prototypes of any kind
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michael_mensinger
Reged: 12/24/00
Loc: Wilmington, DE, USA
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DSJ,
If you have good photos of the Vader 4-up handy, feel free to email them to me (michaelmensinger@aol.com) and I can cross-check it this weekend with some 4-up reference photographs that I've saved throughout the years. I can't make any guarantees, but it's worth checking in the event that I can match it up and put your mind at ease quickly.
- Mike
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Buying vintage prototypes, snowtrooper rarities, & Kenner employee memorabilia
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oceans11
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: sacramento
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Bill_McBride wrote:
cfawcett wrote:
I'll throw in my $.02 here. I think this thread needs to stick to the real culprit here: Scott. Jordan was duped just like a lot of us were. He's making things right for pieces he sold just like Broc and Alvarez are. All in all, I think he's handled a difficult situation very well.
I'm certain that if he gets Scott's collection to broker, the HCs will be *extremely* well authenticated. Ultimately, this might be the best thing for the entire community. If Jordan doesn't get the fakes, who knows where they might go. Hopefully, we'll be able to make sure the fakes stay out of the marketplace because of HH involvement.
Cj
I couldn't agree more, we really need to keep this discussion on target.
Bill
I jump in with the observation that the discussion of Hollywood Heroes involvement was definitely warranted and "on target". These items were promoted and sold via the Hollywood Heroes name. It warranted discussion.
Yes, there was some scrutiny of his involvement, but to his credit, Jordan has stepped up and openly discussed it, giving explanation for the situation and circumstances surrounding this sale. Open, honest answers at a time of scrutiny speak much about a persons character. Jordan's willingness to discuss this, admitting his mistake of not examing the items, taking Scott at his word, and the admission of CV not going as smooth as he would have liked, speak volumes. It's a bad situation for him to be in. I am glad he, like John, Broc, and others, are making this right. This is the only way for the Hollywood Heroes name to retain credibility, and I think Jordan has risen to that challenge admiraby under scrutiny. I believe he will handle things a bit differently when CVI rolls around.
These open honest answers allow us to turn our full attention to Scott, who so far has not been forthcoming with answers other than this being collector prejudice against him.
Don
who is glad that he doesn't have friends like Scott.
--------------------
Always looking for stormtrooper items-bootlegs, pre production, moc, foreign, etc
"In any other town they'd be the bad guys..."
Never confuse movement with action.
~ Ernest Hemingway ~
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Michael_Ritter
Reged: 11/24/01
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Those Bossk pictures are amazing. Seeing the two pieces side by side the difference is glaring.
As far as the scope of this debacle, I am amazed at how many pieces are coming to the surface as bad. And I know this is not all of them too. It is a shame that was once the pride and joy of many collections are now a source of heartbreak. One thing to keep in mind though is that Scott did have authentic pieces but now all items he sold have to undergo strict scrutiny. It is sad that any piece he sold has doubts around it just by its association with him, even if good.
And with the community, I am happy to see people standing up and offering to help those affected, and the affected also being responsible for items they passed on themselves. It goes to show the depth of character we have here. It does suck some of my best friends are going to get stuck, but I applaud them for standing behind their word.
Regarding Jordan, I commend you too for being as forthcoming as you have been. I absolutely doubt you were involved in any way as it wouldn't be worth risking your company's reputation. However, the continued association may not be worth it until this is all sorted out and settled. Some may see you selling Scott's items and assume you are involved with this even though you are not. Personally I would take a wait and see approach for now. Scott has dug himself a VERY big hole he may not be able to get himself out of and I would hate to see him drag you down with him, even if you were only being a friend and trying to help. Another thing to consider is if the victims decide to sue for damages it might not appear well if he is selling his collection prior to any outcome. It may come off as trying to get the most money before losing and then declaring bankruptcy or similar and saying he has nothing to offer the victims. Some may percieve it as your helping him to once again harm fellow collectors. This is of course just my opinion but I wanted to mention it.
This truly is a dark time for our hobby.
Mike
--------------------
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!"
Looking for SWS.com's Vader's Trap print #14
Looking for R2 Prototypes MOC's & Cobot too! Also Droids R2 Original Art
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oceans11
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: sacramento
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quick addition..
Wasn't there some suspicion on the Micro 4 ups also?
Were they determined to be authentic or fraudulent also?
And what about the two hard copy figures that were stolen? Were they part of Scott's home made group? That would almost be ironic that someone stole something that was essentially worthless.
Don
who offers any support that I can to those who were screwed over.
--------------------
Always looking for stormtrooper items-bootlegs, pre production, moc, foreign, etc
"In any other town they'd be the bad guys..."
Never confuse movement with action.
~ Ernest Hemingway ~
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Youthberg
Reged: 02/02/05
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
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gus wrote:
Youthberg wrote:
A little bit OT maybe, but are any of these fake prototypes featured in Gus & Duncan's prototype book? I'm asking since I guess that it was printed before anyone knew about this mess?
A couple of items slipped in there. We were aware of the scandal as we were going to print so thankfully removed some dubious items at the last minute. Unfortunately we missed two carbalon heads (CCP and AT-ST Driver) and two accessories (Morag staff and Chituhr whip) that are most likely fraudulent. All in all, it could have been a lot worse!
Gus
Glad to hear that you were able to exclude a couple of items, and that there weren't that many that did slip pass.
A little bit sad though, after all the work you've put in to your fantastic book. His wrongdoings are multidimensional for sure
--------------------
SSWC | 2-1B
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KevinA
Reged: 08/29/05
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Michael_Ritter wrote:
Those Bossk pictures are amazing. Seeing the two pieces side by side the difference is glaring.
As far as the scope of this debacle, I am amazed at how many pieces are coming to the surface as bad. And I know this is not all of them too. It is a shame that was once the pride and joy of many collections are now a source of heartbreak. One thing to keep in mind though is that Scott did have authentic pieces but now all items he sold have to undergo strict scrutiny. It is sad that any piece he sold has doubts around it just by its association with him, even if good.
And with the community, I am happy to see people standing up and offering to help those affected, and the affected also being responsible for items they passed on themselves. It goes to show the depth of character we have here. It does suck some of my best friends are going to get stuck, but I applaud them for standing behind their word.
Regarding Jordan, I commend you too for being as forthcoming as you have been. I absolutely doubt you were involved in any way as it wouldn't be worth risking your company's reputation. However, the continued association may not be worth it until this is all sorted out and settled. Some may see you selling Scott's items and assume you are involved with this even though you are not. Personally I would take a wait and see approach for now. Scott has dug himself a VERY big hole he may not be able to get himself out of and I would hate to see him drag you down with him, even if you were only being a friend and trying to help. Another thing to consider is if the victims decide to sue for damages it might not appear well if he is selling his collection prior to any outcome. It may come off as trying to get the most money before losing and then declaring bankruptcy or similar and saying he has nothing to offer the victims. Some may percieve it as your helping him to once again harm fellow collectors. This is of course just my opinion but I wanted to mention it.
This truly is a dark time for our hobby.
Mike
Well said Mike! I agree with everything except for 2 things:
1. The IF part about if the victims decide to sue for legal damages. I would really be on this right away. There should be no IF here. The law (lawyers, police etc) should be involved with this. I am far from a lawyer but I am assuming the sooner the better.
2.This is a dark time for our hobby, no doubt. But there is some light. I am seeing guys band together publicly like I haven't seen before, which is great. Also, I know for myself I have gained more knowledge in the pre-production process in the last week then I had in my previous 15 years of collecting. Of course this is easy to say not having a pony in this race....good luck guys!
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Bill_McBride
Reged: 05/01/01
Loc: Washington DC
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oceans11 wrote:
I jump in with the observation that the discussion of Hollywood Heroes involvement was definitely warranted and "on target". These items were promoted and sold via the Hollywood Heroes name. It warranted discussion.
Yes, there was some scrutiny of his involvement, but to his credit, Jordan has stepped up and openly discussed it, giving explanation for the situation and circumstances surrounding this sale. Open, honest answers at a time of scrutiny speak much about a persons character. Jordan's willingness to discuss this, admitting his mistake of not examing the items, taking Scott at his word, and the admission of CV not going as smooth as he would have liked, speak volumes. It's a bad situation for him to be in. I am glad he, like John, Broc, and others, are making this right. This is the only way for the Hollywood Heroes name to retain credibility, and I think Jordan has risen to that challenge admiraby under scrutiny. I believe he will handle things a bit differently when CVI rolls around.
These open honest answers allow us to turn our full attention to Scott, who so far has not been forthcoming with answers other than this being collector prejudice against him.
Don
who is glad that he doesn't have friends like Scott.
I completely agree with you Don. I wasn't dismissing anyone's point of view, or concern. Jordan is coming under direct fire over these pieces, and he has stepped up to the plate to resolve it. My point of concern is the usual nature of serious threads to get derailed, OT, or become some sort general mud-slinging. I think it is more beneficial to focus on these pieces themselves, so we can truly understand the situation at hand.
This is a macro shot of my Top Toys Vader hard copy:
While it's not as refined as it's Kenner brothers, you can still see how sharp and detailed the figure is. Considering this was actually cast off a Kenner production figure, it should offer another perspective on the subject of the (lack of) detail regarding the questionable HC's. (ie. a real HC made from a production grade figure still shows a higher degree of detail than the examples Chris has posted)
Bill
--------------------
Buying Rare and Unusual Darth Vader Items; Vintage and New
Check out The Darth Vader Toy Museum at: www.sithtoys.com
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Michael_Ritter
Reged: 11/24/01
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Quote:
1. The IF part about if the victims decide to sue for legal damages. I would really be on this right away. There should be no IF here. The law (lawyers, police etc) should be involved with this. I am far from a lawyer but I am assuming the sooner the better.
Hey Kevin. The only reason I used the wording IF is because fortunately I am not amongst the victims and am not priviledged to know what they are planning. I did not want to state something I was not positive about. However, had I been victimized here you can well bet I would have been in contact with my lawyer and law enforcment and postal authorities right away.
Quote:
2.This is a dark time for our hobby, no doubt. But there is some light. I am seeing guys band together publicly like I haven't seen before, which is great. Also, I know for myself I have gained more knowledge in the pre-production process in the last week then I had in my previous 15 years of collecting.
I do agree with you that there are a number of positives coming out of this situation right now, from education to sharing of information to offers of help from other collectors. However, this is a dark time. Collectors are out money and pieces, faith in preproduction pieces is shaken right now, new collectors entering this segment of the hobby might be scared off, etc. This is a significant event. I am positive we will all emerge from this as better collectors and community. We will be more diligent with what we buy. We will put this behind us. but right now, this is a dark time.
Mike
--------------------
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!"
Looking for SWS.com's Vader's Trap print #14
Looking for R2 Prototypes MOC's & Cobot too! Also Droids R2 Original Art
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cfawcett
Reged: 11/06/00
Loc: North Carolina
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I wanted to post again. If anyone finds out they have fraudulent pieces, PLEASE email me at hcscam@12back.com. I need your info for our legal battle.
Cj
--------------------
WTB: First Shot Warok, Palitoy ESB Han Hoth, PBP Han Hoth (ESB & ROTJ)
Vintage Toy Archive: http://www.12back.com
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chipcataldo
Reged: 10/03/08
Loc: Myrtle Beach, SC
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I just wanted to post and say how horrible I feel that some of you guys were deceived. I hope Scott wises up and refunds everyone's cash, but if he resists or refuses I'd also be willing to contribute what I can to the legal fund.
That being said, I also wanted to say how cool and righteous it is for Jordan to stand up and say what he did. All while he had to deal with this he got me a key piece for my collection and was nothing but kind and professional with great customer service when his stress might have interfered. Hopefully he can sway Scott toward doing the right thing.
I wish everyone luck in getting their money back on what they lost.
Peace,
Chip
--------------------
Feedback thread : http://tinyurl.com/28grdln
Paying $250 for a MOC Gulliver Future Warriors Dynamo
Paying $500 for a MOC Estrela Super Powers Brainiac, Shazam or Cyborg
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Leif_G
Reged: 02/01/06
Loc: BC, Canada
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Bill_McBride wrote:
I think it is more beneficial to focus on these pieces themselves, so we can truly understand the situation at hand.
In the long term, these sorts of post that focus on the 'fake vs genuine' will be the most benefitial aspects of this thread for sure.
Actually, someone should do a book about repros vs genuine vintage, that covers both production repros (accessories, etc) and protoype repros. I bet it would be a hot seller.
Leif
--------------------
Leif's Trade Feedback
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Todd_Hudson
Reged: 02/15/03
Loc: Maui HI
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I don't believe for one second that Scott has not read this thread or know whats being said. I would love to hear if Scott is saying this stuff is not fake or that someone cheated him... if all this was true then why is Jordan the only person Scott is willing to talk to?
I think Jordan is doing everything he can to make things right, while he should have checked things since he basically put his seal of approval on the stuff, he is making things right and I strongly believe he values his reputation and has done alot for SW prototype collecting over the years.
Enjoy your travels Jordan!!
-Todd-
--------------------
"Now if your stealing money from your grandma and donating plasma to complete your Cheif Chirpa focus bootleg set then thats no fun and should probably be avoided."
http://WWW.TODDONMAUI.COM
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JohnA
Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
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ChrisGeorgoulias wrote:
While you might not care about this (although I'd advise otherwise) the next owner might really care and not having this info could cost you a sale. These types of items really demand record-keeping at least at a basic level because it's their history with Kenner which is important.
The ironic part is I've always been HUGE into keeping the history. I've told people who own pieces who precious owners were because I try to track where stuff came from. The story with him was almost always, Kenner employee, and since he was known to have names I'd kind of bit my tongue. Several times I badgered him and he just wouldn't give up a name. I even offered Kenner names that pieces *could* have come from but he just wouldn't answer. The main piece he was doing this with was a Sceed wax head. He pushed it as a wax with disc. When I told him I knew for a fact it wasn't the sculpt he told me he never said that even though it was pushed as a sculpt. Funny thing is he dropped names to guys like Phidias, though none of them proved to be an accurate history, but he'd never tell me. I can only assume he felt Phidias wouldn't be able to follow up.
Scott, your lack of response is in really poor form. A lot of us trusted you. Your silence is really speaking volumes.
John
--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character
-Shai Hulud
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oceans11
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: sacramento
|
|
Bill_McBride wrote:
oceans11 wrote:
I jump in with the observation that the discussion of Hollywood Heroes involvement was definitely warranted and "on target". These items were promoted and sold via the Hollywood Heroes name. It warranted discussion.
Yes, there was some scrutiny of his involvement, but to his credit, Jordan has stepped up and openly discussed it, giving explanation for the situation and circumstances surrounding this sale. Open, honest answers at a time of scrutiny speak much about a persons character. Jordan's willingness to discuss this, admitting his mistake of not examing the items, taking Scott at his word, and the admission of CV not going as smooth as he would have liked, speak volumes. It's a bad situation for him to be in. I am glad he, like John, Broc, and others, are making this right. This is the only way for the Hollywood Heroes name to retain credibility, and I think Jordan has risen to that challenge admiraby under scrutiny. I believe he will handle things a bit differently when CVI rolls around.
These open honest answers allow us to turn our full attention to Scott, who so far has not been forthcoming with answers other than this being collector prejudice against him.
Don
who is glad that he doesn't have friends like Scott.
I completely agree with you Don. I wasn't dismissing anyone's point of view, or concern. Jordan is coming under direct fire over these pieces, and he has stepped up to the plate to resolve it. My point of concern is the usual nature of serious threads to get derailed, OT, or become some sort general mud-slinging. I think it is more beneficial to focus on these pieces themselves, so we can truly understand the situation at hand.
This is a macro shot of my Top Toys Vader hard copy:
While it's not as refined as it's Kenner brothers, you can still see how sharp and detailed the figure is. Considering this was actually cast off a Kenner production figure, it should offer another perspective on the subject of the (lack of) detail regarding the questionable HC's. (ie. a real HC made from a production grade figure still shows a higher degree of detail than the examples Chris has posted)
Bill
I definitely don't want this to devolve into mud slinging and agree that it can be used for the greater good of information.
I do have a couple of questions on the Top Toys Hard Copy Vader. What material are the limbs made of? Are they Carbalon or a hard plastic? Does it show traces of the Kenner copyright information on the leg?
Don
who can post close up,detailed pics of the Top Toys Stormtrooper Hard Copy if anyone would like them for reference.
--------------------
Always looking for stormtrooper items-bootlegs, pre production, moc, foreign, etc
"In any other town they'd be the bad guys..."
Never confuse movement with action.
~ Ernest Hemingway ~
Edited by oceans11 (09/24/10 03:26 PM)
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Bill_McBride
Reged: 05/01/01
Loc: Washington DC
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oceans11 wrote:
I do have a couple of questions on the Top Toys Hard Copy Vader. What material are the limbs made of? Are they Carbalon or a hard plastic? Does it show traces of the Kenner copyright information on the leg?
Don
Top Toys used a very hard plastic, similar to what Kenner used for the POTF2 era HC's. I can't speak for the Stormtrooper, but the Vader is completely hand painted and detailed. It uses the traditional metal pins to secure the various parts.
TT did make some changes to the figure for production, including removing the CoO, filling in the peg holes, and used a different material for the cape. They actually did an amazing job recasting the figure, and you shouldn't see any trace of the changes on the HC.
Bill
--------------------
Buying Rare and Unusual Darth Vader Items; Vintage and New
Check out The Darth Vader Toy Museum at: www.sithtoys.com
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oceans11
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: sacramento
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Ok... that confirms what I suspected. Thanks for the info. Top Toys used a hard plastic for the limbs on the Stormtrooper one also. That was the only thing that I was unsure of on these. They also filled in the peg holes and has the copyright mostly removed, though not completely. The Stormtrooper was handpainted, exhibits a fine amount of wear, has the left leg glued on, and it is believed that the paint was at one point attempted to be touched up (probably by Pablo who had this in his hands at one point). Details on the figure are really clear and crisp though, and Top Toys did a really nice job on the hard copy. The production figures are a different story though.
Do we remember how many Top Toys hard copies turned up?
Also, while we're here.. theoretically how many hard copies would there be for Kenner produced figures? Wouldn't there be only one? Or are there multiples of some figures known to exist?
Don
sorry to derail this away from the focus on Scott, but the hard copy info/discussion is kind of cool.
--------------------
Always looking for stormtrooper items-bootlegs, pre production, moc, foreign, etc
"In any other town they'd be the bad guys..."
Never confuse movement with action.
~ Ernest Hemingway ~
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Bill_McBride
Reged: 05/01/01
Loc: Washington DC
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oceans11 wrote:
Ok... that confirms what I suspected. Thanks for the info. Top Toys used a hard plastic for the limbs on the Stormtrooper one also. That was the only thing that I was unsure of on these. They also filled in the peg holes and has the copyright mostly removed, though not completely. The Stormtrooper was handpainted, exhibits a fine amount of wear, has the left leg glued on, and it is believed that the paint was at one point attempted to be touched up (probably by Pablo who had this in his hands at one point). Details on the figure are really clear and crisp though, and Top Toys did a really nice job on the hard copy. The production figures are a different story though.
Do we remember how many Top Toys hard copies turned up?
Also, while we're here.. theoretically how many hard copies would there be for Kenner produced figures? Wouldn't there be only one? Or are there multiples of some figures known to exist?
Don
sorry to derail this away from the focus on Scott, but the hard copy info/discussion is kind of cool.
I was fortunate enough to get some of the molds with the figure, and trust me (as it relates to Pablo), I went over these with a fine tooth comb. I even took regular pics of the torso mold (front), and used PS to created a positive image so I could look at them side by side. (Don, I'll PM you about the other TT pieces to keep the thread OT)
Bill
~ Just to echo what a lot of the other's have said. It really comes down to each of us doing our homework, and taking the time to study pieces like this. Personally, I like using a high-res macro lens/shot of anything I want to look at, and then looking at it on my monitor. (A poor mans microscope..LOL). Just my .02cents, but it's worked for me over the years.
--------------------
Buying Rare and Unusual Darth Vader Items; Vintage and New
Check out The Darth Vader Toy Museum at: www.sithtoys.com
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MarkSalotti
Reged: 07/06/04
Loc: Australia
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As Arnaud stated in another thread; some collectors prefer to remain discreet and anonymous. Although I've been in this area of the hobby for almost 15 years now, I fall into that category for the most part, but feel I must also share my experience and warn the community to be diligent and ask more questions when purchasing pre-production pieces.
I picked up a set of painted Morag accessories (the staff & pot) from Scott. They cost me $3000. He was very generous with his payment-plan and even delivered them to me through a mutual friend when I was in the US last year, before even having received full-payment. I later paid him the balance I owed him.
Some of the hobby's most experienced collectors examined the accessories, including many of the experts posting in this thread, and in addition to a parting-line not looking quite right, a few other anomalies were identified (paint-spatter on the staff and the unsanded-finish of the pot as well as a general non-uniformity to the paint - all unusual for the high-standards Kenner worked to) but nothing was conclusive enough to disprove their authenticity.
The "anomalies" did prompt us to scratch inconspicuous spots on the accessories to reveal the colour of the material under the paint and it appeared to be deep, Dynacast-green. Besides, Scott's reputation for sourcing these pieces from Kenner people proceeded him, so he got the benefit of any doubt.
About nine months later, I had the rare opportunity to trade up to a carded Morag figure! The trade required surrendering my loose, now-complete Morag. However, the carded Morag presented the chance to compare the accessories I bought from Scott, with known Kenner accessories (non-interfered with, on a card) and there the differences, especially in the parting-lines, and the paint shades & application became quite apparent.
I confronted Scott at C5 explaining the above and suggesting his source on these wasn't good. His immediate reaction was not one of denial or surprise, but rather the response: "We'll fix it". That seemed unusual to me. He offered me a set of first-shot accessories in exchange which I pointed out I wouldn't value as highly as a hard-copy set. We'd planned to meet again and compare the carded accessories with the loose ones, but Scott left Celebration after our conversation and I didn't see him again.
Since then I have compared them with a second set of painted Morag accessories; although these also came from Scott, they trace back further to an old collection. These accessories matched the carded accessories perfectly. The conclusion was obvious - since the inconsistencies were undeniable – the accessories I got from Scott were fake.
I contacted Scott repeatedly after Celebration asking for a refund, but to no avail. I changed tack and asked about the exchange offer for the first-shot pieces and he responded saying he'd send them to me. I was trying to get them sent to me whilst I was still in the US after Celebration, but that was weeks ago now and nothing, not even a word, from him since. I don't think I want anything else from his collection, anyway - I would just like my hard-earned money back at this stage.
He also confirmed that the Morag "hard-copy" accessories that I bought from him were from one of the main sculptors of the Ewoks line and gave me his name; the sculptor was contacted and he verified that he had never had any dealings with Scott. As the claim of provenance was a direct untruth from Scott, it proves conclusively that these accessories are fake.
I also purchased a "Dynacast" Dulok Scout head & tail from Scott; they cost me a total of $550. Scott included a Dulok Shaman tail for free as he was worried that the Scout tail was not of good-quality, which was a bit of an unusual thing to do. The tails were very obviously fake (they looked like plastic) and several people have now inspected the head and I have compared it to both a first-shot and the original sculpt. It is most definitely not a real hard-copy. None of the pieces are fluorescent under a black light.
So, that puts me at: $3550 out-of-pocket - $3000 of which is money I have to find (again) to make up for the accessories that I used in the trade, that I can't expect the collector I traded with to wear.
As an aside, I don't think that this situation should deter collectors from entering this niche of the hobby; I think it should teach us all to talk to others and ask questions.
Also, it's very important to step back and keep a clear mind and not be blinded by 'dream-come-true' pieces that we're offered and wish them to be real to the point where we're dismissing even the slightest warning-signs - I think that's what happened to a lot of people in this case...myself included.
Jordan, I'm encouraged by your willingness to help - both here and in a private email we exchanged - so if there is anything else that you can do, it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks everyone.
-Mark
--------------------
WTB: Painted POTF, DROIDS & EWOKS coins!
"A man is most nearly himself when he achieves the seriousness of a child at play" - J.M. Barrie.
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acedecade75
Reged: 07/06/02
Loc: USA
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I certainly feel for you. I've been waiting many years to find a Morag staff to complete my set. I purchased a hardcopy staff(fake) from Scott for $1000. It's really frusterating to not only be out the $1000, but I'm also back to square one still needing a Morag staff to complete my set.
It looks like to only way to make headway is going to be united as a community against Scott.
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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MarkSalotti wrote:
Also, it's very important to step back and keep a clear mind and not be blinded by 'dream-come-true' pieces that we're offered and wish them to be real to the point where we're dismissing even the slightest warning-signs - I think that's what happened to a lot of people in this case...myself included.
Wise words from a wise Australian.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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Jason_West
Reged: 03/08/02
Loc: Northern Virginia
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oceans11 wrote:
In the process of this purchase, Scott was very happy to show me a pic of the Kenner hard copy Stormtrooper that he had; of course asking that it not be shared with anyone.
It was not a great picture as it was unpainted and was black; supposedly making it hard to photograph. Weird I thought when I got the e-mail, as I knew most hard copies were dynacast (green) or carbalon (brown). I asked if it had been painted, and he stated that they hadn't. A bit after I had completed the purchase of the Top Toys one, Scott e-mailed me stating that he actually had two of the Kenner hard copies, they were identical, and was thinking of selling one. He offered it to me for $10,000.00; which was way too expensive for my modest budget. I thought it was strange that all of a sudden he had two of these figures. Legit.. not legit.. not so sure as the pic is pretty much c rap. I do find it odd that there would be two identical unpainted Kenner one's floating around. In light of this, I'm glad I didn't go after it (which I contemplated when I had sold my house and had some money; while in the middle of buying my new one).
Don,
I had a chance to look over the Stormtrooper in question. While Scott had been showing the jawa, he pulled out a case and some "black" hardcopy parts. Out came the stormtrooper as well. I questioned him about it being black and I "thought" the material had been green and why has this been painted. He mentioned something about the color coming from the "process" of making the figure and how different materials were used at different times. Also, the "source" sold this to him this way. I just wanted to mention this.
Also, I would like to "volunteer" some legal funds as well. This place has been a great benefit to me and my chosen hobby (no matter how long it lasts) and this is the least I can do.
--------------------
Jason West
Collection and Blog: MADBROWNZ
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Broc
Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
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Jason_West wrote:
I had a chance to look over the Stormtrooper in question. While Scott had been showing the jawa, he pulled out a case and some "black" hardcopy parts. Out came the stormtrooper as well. I questioned him about it being black and I "thought" the material had been green and why has this been painted. He mentioned something about the color coming from the "process" of making the figure and how different materials were used at different times. Also, the "source" sold this to him this way. I just wanted to mention this.
While I can't say anything about the Stormtrooper that Scott owns as I have not seen it in person. I did want to point out that there are legitimate black hardcopies out there. It is a black urethane known as Repro10. I personally own a Rebel Soldier in this material and it has a solid history and traces back to a Kenner source. It is a piece I got years ago and Scott had absolutely nothing to do with it.
In addition, I know of a handful of other legit parts that exist in the same black material.
-Broc
--------------------
Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)
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Yzerman
Reged: 06/03/06
Loc: Gothenburg, SWEDEN
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I don't own any prototypes or pre-production material whatsoever and have nothing invested in this, but I feel really bad for those who spent thousands of dollars on these fake prototypes. If it had happened to me, I would be furious. This Scott character seems to be a real ***hole.
Edited by James_Gallo (09/25/10 03:17 AM)
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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Broc wrote:
Jason_West wrote:
I had a chance to look over the Stormtrooper in question. While Scott had been showing the jawa, he pulled out a case and some "black" hardcopy parts. Out came the stormtrooper as well. I questioned him about it being black and I "thought" the material had been green and why has this been painted. He mentioned something about the color coming from the "process" of making the figure and how different materials were used at different times. Also, the "source" sold this to him this way. I just wanted to mention this.
While I can't say anything about the Stormtrooper that Scott owns as I have not seen it in person. I did want to point out that there are legitimate black hardcopies out there. It is a black urethane known as Repro10. I personally own a Rebel Soldier in this material and it has a solid history and traces back to a Kenner source. It is a piece I got years ago and Scott had absolutely nothing to do with it.
In addition, I know of a handful of other legit parts that exist in the same black material.
-Broc
Several of the SW-era pieces Scott was offering were in black. If the pieces are fake (and I really suspect they are), then there was an attempt to match up material to the dates it was known to have been used by Kenner. I don't believe I've ever seen a legit black HC that dates later than 1980 or so. And it's likely the alleged forger realized that.
Even so, my experience is that Carbalon (brown) was used more commonly by Kenner than the black stuff, even pre-1980.
Scott was also in possession of two (two!) complete Luke X-Wings in a black material. Chris G. has run some blacklight tests on one, and the results are pretty interesting.
If anyone knows where these stormtroopers ended up, please speak up!
--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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phidias_barrios
Reged: 12/14/05
Loc: los angeles
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ronsalvatore wrote:
Broc wrote:
Jason_West wrote:
I had a chance to look over the Stormtrooper in question. While Scott had been showing the jawa, he pulled out a case and some "black" hardcopy parts. Out came the stormtrooper as well. I questioned him about it being black and I "thought" the material had been green and why has this been painted. He mentioned something about the color coming from the "process" of making the figure and how different materials were used at different times. Also, the "source" sold this to him this way. I just wanted to mention this.
While I can't say anything about the Stormtrooper that Scott owns as I have not seen it in person. I did want to point out that there are legitimate black hardcopies out there. It is a black urethane known as Repro10. I personally own a Rebel Soldier in this material and it has a solid history and traces back to a Kenner source. It is a piece I got years ago and Scott had absolutely nothing to do with it.
In addition, I know of a handful of other legit parts that exist in the same black material.
-Broc
Several of the SW-era pieces Scott was offering were in black. If the pieces are fake (and I really suspect they are), then there was an attempt to match up material to the dates it was known to have been used by Kenner. I don't believe I've ever seen a legit black HC that dates later than 1980 or so. And it's likely the alleged forger realized that.
Even so, my experience is that Carbalon (brown) was used more commonly by Kenner than the black stuff, even pre-1980.
Scott was also in possession of two (two!) complete Luke X-Wings in a black material. Chris G. has run some blacklight tests on one, and the results are pretty interesting.
If anyone knows where these stormtroopers ended up, please speak up!
Weird that Scott chose to keep that Stormtrooper in a box instead of putting it out for display. Just weird....
Scott sent me that same black Stormtrooper pic (blurry and all) when I bought my painted Bib from him. He also had some other SW hardcopies on his sale list that weren't featured on the Hollywood Heroes site like that second black LXW that Ron is referring to and a painted Hammerhead. You can see the shadow of Hammerhead in the upper right corner of the Stormtrooper pic. I wouldn't be surprised if he (Scott) pictured it that way on purpose just to tease and distract the viewer of the pic. Whenever you asked him for a pic (at least in my case), he would either send a blurry one or a pic of his collection case so you can be distracted by all his other "goodies".
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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phidias_barrios wrote:
ronsalvatore wrote:
Broc wrote:
Jason_West wrote:
I had a chance to look over the Stormtrooper in question. While Scott had been showing the jawa, he pulled out a case and some "black" hardcopy parts. Out came the stormtrooper as well. I questioned him about it being black and I "thought" the material had been green and why has this been painted. He mentioned something about the color coming from the "process" of making the figure and how different materials were used at different times. Also, the "source" sold this to him this way. I just wanted to mention this.
While I can't say anything about the Stormtrooper that Scott owns as I have not seen it in person. I did want to point out that there are legitimate black hardcopies out there. It is a black urethane known as Repro10. I personally own a Rebel Soldier in this material and it has a solid history and traces back to a Kenner source. It is a piece I got years ago and Scott had absolutely nothing to do with it.
In addition, I know of a handful of other legit parts that exist in the same black material.
-Broc
Several of the SW-era pieces Scott was offering were in black. If the pieces are fake (and I really suspect they are), then there was an attempt to match up material to the dates it was known to have been used by Kenner. I don't believe I've ever seen a legit black HC that dates later than 1980 or so. And it's likely the alleged forger realized that.
Even so, my experience is that Carbalon (brown) was used more commonly by Kenner than the black stuff, even pre-1980.
Scott was also in possession of two (two!) complete Luke X-Wings in a black material. Chris G. has run some blacklight tests on one, and the results are pretty interesting.
If anyone knows where these stormtroopers ended up, please speak up!
Weird that Scott chose to keep that Stormtrooper in a box instead of putting it out for display. Just weird....
Scott sent me that same black Stormtrooper pic (blurry and all) when I bought my painted Bib from him. He also had some other SW hardcopies on his sale list that weren't featured on the Hollywood Heroes site like that second black LXW that Ron is referring to and a painted Hammerhead. You can see the shadow of Hammerhead in the upper right corner of the Stormtrooper pic. I wouldn't be surprised if he (Scott) pictured it that way on purpose just to tease and distract the viewer of the pic. Whenever you asked him for a pic (at least in my case), he would either send a blurry one or a pic of his collection case so you can be distracted by all his other "goodies".
Jason -- was it at CV that he had the stormtrooper?
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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wooten
Reged: 09/13/00
Loc: Galloway, OH
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ronsalvatore wrote:
Jason -- was it at CV that he had the stormtrooper?
For what it's worth, I was told it was there by someone at the booth, thinking I'd be interested I suppose...
-John
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John Wooten
http://www.oswcc.com
http://www.theswca.com
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Sems_Fir
Reged: 10/25/00
Loc: Connecticut
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phidias_barrios wrote:
ronsalvatore wrote:
Broc wrote:
Jason_West wrote:
I had a chance to look over the Stormtrooper in question. While Scott had been showing the jawa, he pulled out a case and some "black" hardcopy parts. Out came the stormtrooper as well. I questioned him about it being black and I "thought" the material had been green and why has this been painted. He mentioned something about the color coming from the "process" of making the figure and how different materials were used at different times. Also, the "source" sold this to him this way. I just wanted to mention this.
While I can't say anything about the Stormtrooper that Scott owns as I have not seen it in person. I did want to point out that there are legitimate black hardcopies out there. It is a black urethane known as Repro10. I personally own a Rebel Soldier in this material and it has a solid history and traces back to a Kenner source. It is a piece I got years ago and Scott had absolutely nothing to do with it.
In addition, I know of a handful of other legit parts that exist in the same black material.
-Broc
Several of the SW-era pieces Scott was offering were in black. If the pieces are fake (and I really suspect they are), then there was an attempt to match up material to the dates it was known to have been used by Kenner. I don't believe I've ever seen a legit black HC that dates later than 1980 or so. And it's likely the alleged forger realized that.
Even so, my experience is that Carbalon (brown) was used more commonly by Kenner than the black stuff, even pre-1980.
Scott was also in possession of two (two!) complete Luke X-Wings in a black material. Chris G. has run some blacklight tests on one, and the results are pretty interesting.
If anyone knows where these stormtroopers ended up, please speak up!
Weird that Scott chose to keep that Stormtrooper in a box instead of putting it out for display. Just weird....
Scott sent me that same black Stormtrooper pic (blurry and all) when I bought my painted Bib from him. He also had some other SW hardcopies on his sale list that weren't featured on the Hollywood Heroes site like that second black LXW that Ron is referring to and a painted Hammerhead. You can see the shadow of Hammerhead in the upper right corner of the Stormtrooper pic. I wouldn't be surprised if he (Scott) pictured it that way on purpose just to tease and distract the viewer of the pic. Whenever you asked him for a pic (at least in my case), he would either send a blurry one or a pic of his collection case so you can be distracted by all his other "goodies".
Interesting that the mention of the Hammerhead is stated. Based off the background for the Stormtrooper I believe what I am posting below is images of that Hammerhead. I know I showed the below images to Chris G. last September. If I am in error then I will openly apologize but for the sake of the thread here's the three images of what I believe to be that Hammerhead:
Robert
www.behindthetoys.com
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Black_Falcon
Reged: 03/31/04
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Yes, Scott had a black prototype Stormtrooper at CV.
He showed that to me alongside the hard copy Jawa.
- Graham
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webshots
Figure-wise the Jawa has a cloth cape that was made from someone's brown sock
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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Sems_Fir wrote:
Interesting that the mention of the Hammerhead is stated. Based off the background for the Stormtrooper I believe what I am posting below is images of that Hammerhead. I know I showed the below images to Chris G. last September. If I am in error then I will openly apologize but for the sake of the thread here's the three images of what I believe to be that Hammerhead:
You're only telling half of the story.
In my response I gave you the initials of the seller (because I'd seen it before actually) and said that the modus operandi was always the same. That prospective buyers were repeatedly asked not to seek out opinions from others and that the figures always seemed to be hardcopies (which I knew could be rather easily created).
I also told you that the Cantina aliens that I'm aware of were all made of Carbalon, not the black Repro 10 material.
The other thing to note is the incredible coincidence that these dubious hardcopies, more often than not, corresponded to pieces that would appeal to known character collectors, your friend included.
The red flags are always flying.
-chris
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The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
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Sems_Fir
Reged: 10/25/00
Loc: Connecticut
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True, but I didn't think there was a story to tell based on your email response to me. You even stated it doesn't look off from what you were seeing, but there isn't much to it to begin with. I was just guessing that the Hammerhead in question was the example I posted images of and was hoping for a possible confirmation. My friend wanted another opinion so I emailed you and you provided it. From what I understand it saved my friend alot cash because as far as I know my friend didn't purchase the piece, and even to my friend it didn't look right.
For my friend it seemed too good to be true.
Robert
www.behindthetoys.com
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JohnA
Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
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So, I guess this was for, "your friend".
JJA
--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character
-Shai Hulud
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HollywoodHeroes
Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
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I love that show... which one is the collector?
Just a joke to lighten the mood guys....
Jordan
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Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com
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Sems_Fir
Reged: 10/25/00
Loc: Connecticut
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JohnA wrote:
So, I guess this was for, "your friend".
JJA
You stated you didn't want roses so I thought I'd send you something a little more meaningful. 
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oceans11
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: sacramento
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See.. I had been questioning whether to post that pic of the "supposed" Stormtrooper hard copy. I opted to post it because it seemed important for people to know it was out there, and then it's legitimacy could be discussed. Seems that it made the rounds of trying to be sold off to people under the "don't tell anyone about this" modus operandi. At this point, I am of the opinion that it probably isn't real. Sounds like a few others who saw it at CV agree. I had a couple people there tell me that there was a Stormtrooper hard copy, but that the seller was questionable.
Keep in mind that there may be two of these (at least that was the claim that was made to me way back when it was up for sale).
Don
who notes Phidias has a great eye as I hadn't noticed the Hammerhead shadow before.. though it's pretty obvious now that it's been pointed out to me.
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Always looking for stormtrooper items-bootlegs, pre production, moc, foreign, etc
"In any other town they'd be the bad guys..."
Never confuse movement with action.
~ Ernest Hemingway ~
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phidias_barrios
Reged: 12/14/05
Loc: los angeles
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Wow, this is the kind of interesting stuff that comes out when collectors compare notes. So he claims he had two black Stormtroopers? I guess that makes two black LXWs, two black Stormies, and that one black IG88 that I got from him. Who knows, maybe he had an extra unpainted black IG88 laying around as well.
I don't know if this is going to throw this thread into a tangent, but where are all of Scott's supporters? There's a handful of rebelscum members that Scott always claimed were his "close buds". But for some reason, none of them have added anything to this thread yet. Considering all the evidence, I guess there would be little to say in Scott's defense. Also, considering that they've also bought and received items from Scott, I hope that they're reviewing their pieces carefully.
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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phidias_barrios wrote:
Wow, this is the kind of interesting stuff that comes out when collectors compare notes. So he claims he had two black Stormtroopers? I guess that makes two black LXWs, two black Stormies, and that one black IG88 that I got from him. Who knows, maybe he had an extra unpainted black IG88 laying around as well.
Two Stormtroopers, two Luke X-Wings, two Han Hoths, a Jawa, a Hammerhead, multiple Bossks, an IG-88....and that's just for starters.
That's all that needs to be said, really.
--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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oceans11
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: sacramento
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It surprising appears that he "burned" all of his friends and supporters along the way. Those that he didn't burn, seem to be distancing themselves from the situation. Except for Jordan, who's working on brokering the collection (what remains of it at least).
I'm waiting for the report that Scott has mysteriously taken ill or that his dealings are being handled by Ruth, Chris, Marianna, or whatever unique fictitious persona that he can come up with (stealing a page from the play book of Pablo and Billyboy).
It's almost like the three of them entered into the olympics of scamming the Star Wars collecting community, and were competing for gold, silver, and bronze positioning.
Don
still glad that my friends are all pretty stand up guys.
--------------------
Always looking for stormtrooper items-bootlegs, pre production, moc, foreign, etc
"In any other town they'd be the bad guys..."
Never confuse movement with action.
~ Ernest Hemingway ~
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Shane Turgeon
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: Edmonton, Alberta
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oceans11 wrote:
I'm waiting for the report that Scott has mysteriously taken ill or that his dealings are being handled by Ruth, Chris, Marianna, or whatever unique fictitious persona that he can come up with (stealing a page from the play book of Pablo and Billyboy).
It's almost like the three of them entered into the olympics of scamming the Star Wars collecting community, and were competing for gold, silver, and bronze positioning.
Gary Pederson and Mario Salcido (sp?) should both be added into the group of people who perpetuated large scale and elaborate frauds...ah, what a way to leave your mark in the world.
--------------------
Shane Turgeon
Author: The Force in the Flesh
www.theforceintheflesh.com
www.tattoosandtoys.com
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StarZone
Reged: 06/29/08
Loc: UK
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Does anyone have any photos of a supposed original screen-used Ewok head that Scott was offering around a few years ago?
I heard about it but sadly never got to see any photos.
Darren
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http://www.facebook.com/pages/StarZone/107805415918160?ref=ts
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acedecade75
Reged: 07/06/02
Loc: USA
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Scott told me about the same mask, although he never provided any pictures. He did specificaly tell me that it was a Wicket mask. I remember finding this hard to believe even before all the recent issues.
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JosephY
Reged: 12/21/01
Loc: Providence RI
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Shane Turgeon wrote:
oceans11 wrote:
I'm waiting for the report that Scott has mysteriously taken ill or that his dealings are being handled by Ruth, Chris, Marianna, or whatever unique fictitious persona that he can come up with (stealing a page from the play book of Pablo and Billyboy).
It's almost like the three of them entered into the olympics of scamming the Star Wars collecting community, and were competing for gold, silver, and bronze positioning.
Gary Pederson and Mario Salcido (sp?) should both be added into the group of people who perpetuated large scale and elaborate frauds...ah, what a way to leave your mark in the world.
I'm sure that they're lurking in thier hidden fortress in the swamps of Florida. Plotting thier next move.
I dub these 5 wastes of space: "TheLegionOfDouche"
Sorry I just had to try to add some humor to a very much not funny situation.
Cheers
Joe
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"You should be ashamed of yourself for supporting pirate Star Wars toys!"-TBFN
Wants:ANY Carded Polish, Mexican Amanaman,Loose Hungarian Vader
http://www.myspace.com/theusualsuspectsri
Edited by JosephY (09/27/10 07:49 PM)
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Arnaud
Reged: 07/07/05
Loc: Paris, France
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Thanks to that Ewok mask I never took Scott seriously.
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Sowth
Reged: 10/02/02
Loc: Melbourne Australia
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People pulling outrageous crap like this can really suck the life and confidence out of a hobby, good on you guys who are trying to do the right thing r.e. refunds.
I feel desperately sorry for everyone who has been ripped, sometimes when scams come to light it's tempting to sit back and think "that would never happen to me", this one really goes to show that kind of hubris has no place in the hobby, it could happen to any one of us at any time.
Will
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Toltoys Kid Vintage Australian Toys and Ice Creams
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oceans11
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: sacramento
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JosephY wrote:
Shane Turgeon wrote:
oceans11 wrote:
I'm waiting for the report that Scott has mysteriously taken ill or that his dealings are being handled by Ruth, Chris, Marianna, or whatever unique fictitious persona that he can come up with (stealing a page from the play book of Pablo and Billyboy).
It's almost like the three of them entered into the olympics of scamming the Star Wars collecting community, and were competing for gold, silver, and bronze positioning.
Gary Pederson and Mario Salcido (sp?) should both be added into the group of people who perpetuated large scale and elaborate frauds...ah, what a way to leave your mark in the world.
I'm sure that they're lurking in thier hidden fortress in the swamps of Florida. Plotting thier next move.
I dub these 5 wastes of space: "TheLegionOfDouche"
Sorry I just had to try to add some humor to a very much not funny situation.
Cheers
Joe
Extra bonus points go to Joe for the Challenge of the Superfriends reference. Loved that show. I always thought the legion of doom's headquarters in the swamp was much cooler than the Hall of Justice.
This situation is bad from many aspects. Monetarily for those involved (and it's looking to be quite a good chunk of money overall). Friendship wise, as Scott burned a lot of people..some who considered him to be their friend. Plus this is bad for hobby information and knowledge. These hard copies give collectors insight into the design of the action figure line, its history, and the behind the scenes work that went into crafting it. These fakes hurt that sense of history.
Don
several posts later, still amazed at the black light comparisons, and the idea behind utilizing it to show real versus fake.
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Always looking for stormtrooper items-bootlegs, pre production, moc, foreign, etc
"In any other town they'd be the bad guys..."
Never confuse movement with action.
~ Ernest Hemingway ~
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Spidey_Seth
Reged: 07/09/03
Loc: Connecticut
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Man o man. I have not been around RS lately and what a bombshell to come into. It really saddens me to hear about all of this. The sheer size of this fraud is unreal. I hate reading about scams, but this one has to be the biggest I am aware of. A lot of good friends have been ripped off by Scott and it just amazes me how he could have done this. I did not know Scott at all, but always considered him one of the top mega collectors due to his collection size and ability to collect such high end items. I came real close to buying one of his hardcopies. He was very easy to work out a payment plan with, but at the end of the day I decided to give up on my character focus and concentrate elsewhere. Looking back I guess that was smart. Still, it really pains me (and pisses me off) to read about everybody who is out a lot of cash. Not only the money, but the fact that these prototypes were faked and some at a high level will leave lasting damage for years to come.
Sometimes I wonder if it is even worth collecting anymore.
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WTB
Polish 1st Gen:Fett, Prune face, Scout, Han Hoth
Hungarian Carded: Luke
Polish Original: Leia, Chewie
Dutch Chewie and R2, plus all 2" figures
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TedMiller
Reged: 03/11/10
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If this slimeball was so good at fooling high end collectors, what was it that finaly exposed him? It seems like everything started after Celebration.
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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So, Scott -- are you ready to comment on this yet?
For exactly how long will we have to wait for an explanation?
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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TedMiller wrote:
If this slimeball was so good at fooling high end collectors, what was it that finaly exposed him? It seems like everything started after Celebration.
The problem here is that there's no major precedence for forgeries here so people weren't looking for problems. Also, to be honest, there is a large amount of emotion involved where people were getting grail pieces that they were really after. When you have that mindset you really aren't even thinking about problems much less looking for them, but that's actually when you need to have your guard up.
What some people didn't do was to sit and ponder how they managed to get a specific character piece that they've always wanted. In some ways it should have stuck out as being too coincidental.
If a guy shows you a photo of 4 sets of Morag accessories then you have to ask how that's possible and what kind of contacts and level of trust he has. When that guy offers you both painted and unpainted versions of a hardcopy figure that's your absolute favorite figure in the line you need to take a step back. However, at that point emotion and a sense of completeness takes over and you forget to do your due diligence.
You really don't need to be an expert to spot some of this stuff and the first bad pieces I looked at were earlier this year. It seemed fairly focused at the time, but when you consider that not a lot of collector to collector talk was going on things can stay dormant. It wasn't until sales were more public and worried people started talking to people they resold items to that the scale was beginning to take shape.
True, it often does take someone with more experience to point things out, but I think now a lot of collectors know a lot more than they did before this happened. Studying variations and knowing how an action figure is made and what various the stages of development involve all come together to help build a story for a figure.
In the end it does essentially boil down to trust and reputation, but that also depends on publicity to some degree. If people aren't talking then this information doesn't get spread around and problems can fester.
Being secretive can have its drawbacks.
-chris
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The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
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phidias_barrios
Reged: 12/14/05
Loc: los angeles
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Wow, Chris hit so many nails on so many heads with his last response.
I already recounted my story earlier but I'll elaborate a bit more; Last summer, Scott sent me an email asking if I would be interested in buying any hardcopies from him. At that time, I'd never done a deal with him before. But I always heard from other collectors that he was a person with a lot of Kenner contacts and a large prototype collection. Normally, when I deal with someone for the first time, I have my guard up. But in a weird way I felt like I already knew Scott due to what other collectors always said about him (i.e. lot of contacts & large collection). So I wasn't giving myself any reason to be suspicious.
He sent me his sale list and it was pretty amazing. Like being in a candy store and not having enough money to buy everything you wanted. Regarding Chris' comment on that 'sense of completeness', I have a Bib Fortuna figure preproduction run and I had just about given up on trying to find a painted hardcopy for him. The only one I knew about was the one on the archive and I lost track of who owned it after Gus and Phillip Johnson. So I was really overjoyed with I saw that Scott had another painted Bib example in his sale list. With hindsight, there were so many red flags before I bought the Bib from him. Scott sent bad pics, he gave vague provenance information, and he insisted on keeping everything secret. I guess I wanted that Bib so bad, that I just rationalized all the warning signs. Even after I received that Bib and had it in my hands, there were things about it that I thought were 'different'. Different paint, different color urethane, and size issues when compared to other hardcopies in my collection that I acquired from solid sources. Yet, there was still that part of me that wanted to believe so bad that it was real and I ended up rationalizing all those red flags as well. The thought of having to pull the Bib out of my run because it was potentially a fake was too painful to consider so I guess I was in a state of denial.
But I was reaching a point where I wanted to get some second opinions about Scott and his pieces. But I was afraid that if I broke my promise of secrecy to him, that he might find out about it, get upset with me and not want to deal with me anymore. Then I would be out on the other pieces on his list that I was interested in.
Thankfully, (like in the Indiana Jones movies where Harrison Ford has to pick the correct grail cup), I started to choose more wisely and sent ChrisG an email. I asked for his help on the Bib as well on some other pieces of Scott. I sent him some better pics of the Bib and he gave me his expert, objective feedback. This was my moment of clarity.
Chris helped prove conclusively that the Bib was recast from a production figure. A total fake. He observed a smoking gun in one of my pics that I couldn't even see in person. It was the remnant of a filled in hexagon peghole underneath one of the feet of the Bib. I have that pic in my other laptop and can't get to it right now. Chris, if you want to post the pic here go ahead. You can post of the pic of the IG-88 as well.
I ended up finding out that another hardcopy piece (IG-88)I bought earlier that year also originated from Scott. Same scenario; inaccurate provenance information and a bunch a red flags that it was cast from a production IG-88 figure. Red flags you couldn't really see unless you looked for it. And again, this was thanks to ChrisG's help.
I guess I got lucky and asked Scott for refunds early on before all this stuff started blowing up. To my surprise at the time, he refunded my money with no problems. When I got my refunds, I had no idea how big this whole scandal really was. Again, like Chris mentioned, there wasn't a lot of collector to collector talk. Knowing what I know now, I guess I should have outed Scott earlier.
Like I mentioned earlier, I'm not clear of all of this yet. I currently have an unpainted (I guess you can call it carbalon) Luke Bespin that I bought from Jordan. This piece probably stings the most because I acquired it after my experience with Scott. I made it clear to Jordan that I didn't want any items that came from Scott. I explained my situation to him about how I bought some questionable pieces from him and had to get refunds. Jordan assured me that it didn't come from Scott and that it came from a collector in the New England/CT area. I also thought I was practing more diligence and inspected the pics that Jordan sent me very closely. I was looking for any red flags that the piece might be cast from a production figure. It was definitely larger than a production figure, no evidence of any COO tampering, the color of the resin matched the color of other unpainted carbalon pieces I've handled before, and the details looked solid. So I bought it in complete confidence.
This Luke Bespin piece was in the collection for several months and I was very happy with it. But as CV came around, that's when a lot of chatter regarding Scott started to spread about him selling questionable hardcopy pieces. As more collectors were talking privately with each other, I found out two things that got me very worried about my Luke Bespin piece. First, I found out that there's a way to enlarge molds to make hardcopies bigger! I never knew that before. Second, I found out that Adam Bulakowski lives in the CT or NH area! And he's the one that Jordan got the Luke from. And unfortunately as it turned out, Adam got the Luke from (guess who) Scott. I've always heard that Adam has allegedly bought some stuff from Scott, but I didn't know he lived in that area that Jordan was referring to. If I knew that beforehand, I would have never bought it. Well, the Luke turned out to be bad under Chris' black light tests. One of my Luke legs is in that black light pic along with all those other bad legs (Han Hoth, Bossk) that originate to Scott with no solid provenance information. I just talked with Jordan this morning, and he's assuring me we'll work things out.
And to answer Tim's question; I don't really consider myself to be a high-end collector, but that's my story about how I got duped.
Edited by phidias_barrios (10/03/10 09:03 PM)
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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For Luke Bespin, the poor details are a giveaway and those are noticeable just with comparison to a production figure. However, when you compare them with real legs the difference are more apparent.
An interesting feature is that the rivets on the leg strap disappeared when the figure went to production, but those are present at an early stage like the sculpting and hardcopy. Also, both the lightsaber hilt and the gun holster on the fake are very muddy in their details which is a clear indication that it's been cast from a production figure.
Of course, the UV light also shows the difference in the pieces that isn't visible to the naked eye. However, the UV just reaffirms what you can see with your own eyes such as the poor detailing. True, being able to compare with an authentic piece isn't always an option, but when you are familiar with the quality and detailing that should be present in an authentic piece, the fake pieces are exposed.
Another red flag here is the number of these Luke Bespin figures that were being offered for sale. Including the painted one, it's 3.
In the photos, the authentic legs are on the outside.
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The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
Edited by ChrisGeorgoulias (09/30/10 07:03 AM)
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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Thanks for sharing your story, Phidias. We need more detailed accounts like yours in order to insure the full extent of this gets documented -- and stays documented -- on this discussion board.
It should be obvious to anyone reading this thread that *someone* is making these things and passing them on to collectors. It should also be clear that many (or all?) of the pieces trace back to the same source.
I've already heard through back channels that Scott is claiming he's being unfairly pushed around by hobby bigwigs.
Well, he's right on one count -- he's being pushed. And people are going to keep pushing him until he comes forward to explain what the heck is going on with these items, and then does everything he can to make the situation right.
Phidias: I'm sure Jordan will refund you quickly on that Luke Bespin. I expect that a reputable firm like Hollywood Heroes will have a check in the mail to you immediately when confronted with such clear evidence that an item they sold is a fake.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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HollywoodHeroes
Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
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I have spoken to Phidias twice this past week, via both E-mail and phone call. Hollywood Heroes is refunding the money for the Luke Bespin... no questions asked. I am not going to ask that the HC be returned to us either. He has been wonderful to work with and is a super person.
I also recently recalled that a blue Mon Julpa head was sold at CV. I do not remember who it was sold to, but I do not believe he was a member here. I need the community's help in finding this person.
If you know someone who purchased a green Mon Julpa head at CV, please have the person contact me. I believe the price was $200.
Thanks so much,
Jordan
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Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com
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tapuvae
Reged: 12/20/03
Loc: us
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ChrisGeorgoulias wrote:
For Luke Bespin, the poor details are a giveaway and those are noticeable just with comparison to a production figure. However, when you compare them with real legs the difference are more apparent.
An interesting feature is that the rivets on the leg strap disappeared when the figure went to production, but those are present at an early stage like the sculpting and hardcopy. Also, both the lightsaber hilt and the gun holster on the fake are very muddy in their details which is a clear indication that it's been cast from a production figure.
Of course, the UV light also shows the difference in the pieces that isn't visible to the naked eye. However, the UV just reaffirms what you can see with your own eyes such as the poor detailing. True, being able to compare with an authentic piece isn't always an option, but when you are familiar with the quality and detailing that should be present in an authentic piece, the fake pieces are exposed.
Another red flag here is the number of these Luke Bespin figures that were being offered for sale. Including the painted one, it's 3.
In the photos, the authentic legs are on the outside.
Does the real right leg HC have an air bubble on the boot lacing? Perhaps also something on the toe area? I point this out because air bubbles were one of the initial red flags and in this case a real item appears to have the same issue therefore making the presence of air bubbles alone perhaps not an utter red flag.
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JohnA
Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
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TedMiller wrote:
If this slimeball was so good at fooling high end collectors, what was it that finaly exposed him? It seems like everything started after Celebration.
Everything started over a year ago. Proof only started happening recently. Broc and I have been eye balling pieces for a while now. Broc showed me some stuff he had that didn't look right and Mattias had some pieces come through me that didn't look right. I sent Chris pics a long time ago but there was no serious evidence yet and it was the type of thing that could have gone either way.
All of the pieces I got were just pieces I thought were neat except for one, the Screed. That is a bit of a grail piece for me but, ironically, he sold that to Mattias who, in turn, offered it to me. I did really want that piece to be real but when I compared it something looked off to me even back then (2008). It took 6 months for me to compare and what I got to compare it to was definitely legitimate and strangely SMALLER than the piece I got from Scott. I also got to look at James' Screed and it matched the other piece I compared to but did NOT match mine. Mine was distorted, puffy. It almost looked like Screed gained 20 pounds. The nose was wider, the torseo was thicker, etc. All the details were present just not in the right places. This was last July (2009) when I got to look at James' but even then nothing was conclusive. James and I even pondered if an alt sculpt had existed. I went to another collector's house and he had a painted one that was puffy like mine and both James and I thought for sure it was an alt sculpt because the owner had never bought from Scott. However, we now feel his seller may have bought from Scott. That would make 3 painted and one unpainted tracing back to him. This is defintely NOT an investigation that just started but with so many people in one place and so many pieces to compare to it just came to a head at CV.
I'll try to post some pics of the Bossk (already pictured), Droppy McCool, Gaff head, and Screed some time over the next few days. I have to dig out the pics from a back up disc.
John
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and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character
-Shai Hulud
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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tapuvae wrote:
Does the real right leg HC have an air bubble on the boot lacing? Perhaps also something on the toe area? I point this out because air bubbles were one of the initial red flags and in this case a real item appears to have the same issue therefore making the presence of air bubbles alone perhaps not an utter red flag.
The thing you're noticing in the lacing is a rivet that was sculpted into the figure. Chris points to it as one of the details missing from the dupe.
Even so, small air bubbles are not uncommon in unpainted hardcopies. It's the painted examples that you shouldn't see them in, because Kenner fixed all those little flaws prior to painting them.
All cast pieces are subject to air pockets.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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ronsalvatore wrote:
tapuvae wrote:
Does the real right leg HC have an air bubble on the boot lacing? Perhaps also something on the toe area? I point this out because air bubbles were one of the initial red flags and in this case a real item appears to have the same issue therefore making the presence of air bubbles alone perhaps not an utter red flag.
The thing you're noticing in the lacing is a rivet that was sculpted into the figure. Chris points to it as one of the details missing from the dupe.
Even so, small air bubbles are not uncommon in unpainted hardcopies. It's the painted examples that you shouldn't see them in, because Kenner fixed all those little flaws prior to painting them.
All cast pieces are subject to air pockets.
Actually, the rivets are noticeable on the holster strap, not the boot lacing, so maybe you're talking about something different.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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JohnA
Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
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tapuvae wrote:
Does the real right leg HC have an air bubble on the boot lacing? Perhaps also something on the toe area? I point this out because air bubbles were one of the initial red flags and in this case a real item appears to have the same issue therefore making the presence of air bubbles alone perhaps not an utter red flag.
Yes, and I have a set of Dengar arms with a few pockets. I think the presence of pockets in PAINTED pieces is the flag. I have a Gaff from him and it has pockets in each fang. Painted pieces would have been filled first. That struck me as odd from day one, but again, no facts yet.
John
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and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character
-Shai Hulud
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tapuvae
Reged: 12/20/03
Loc: us
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ronsalvatore wrote:
ronsalvatore wrote:
tapuvae wrote:
Does the real right leg HC have an air bubble on the boot lacing? Perhaps also something on the toe area? I point this out because air bubbles were one of the initial red flags and in this case a real item appears to have the same issue therefore making the presence of air bubbles alone perhaps not an utter red flag.
The thing you're noticing in the lacing is a rivet that was sculpted into the figure. Chris points to it as one of the details missing from the dupe.
Even so, small air bubbles are not uncommon in unpainted hardcopies. It's the painted examples that you shouldn't see them in, because Kenner fixed all those little flaws prior to painting them.
All cast pieces are subject to air pockets.
Actually, the rivets are noticeable on the holster strap, not the boot lacing, so maybe you're talking about something different.
Yeah not the rivets but actually near the boot, on the front, left side lace of the right foot. Anyway, good to know that some bubbles are normal.
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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tapuvae wrote:
ronsalvatore wrote:
ronsalvatore wrote:
tapuvae wrote:
Does the real right leg HC have an air bubble on the boot lacing? Perhaps also something on the toe area? I point this out because air bubbles were one of the initial red flags and in this case a real item appears to have the same issue therefore making the presence of air bubbles alone perhaps not an utter red flag.
The thing you're noticing in the lacing is a rivet that was sculpted into the figure. Chris points to it as one of the details missing from the dupe.
Even so, small air bubbles are not uncommon in unpainted hardcopies. It's the painted examples that you shouldn't see them in, because Kenner fixed all those little flaws prior to painting them.
All cast pieces are subject to air pockets.
Actually, the rivets are noticeable on the holster strap, not the boot lacing, so maybe you're talking about something different.
Yeah not the rivets but actually near the boot, on the front, left side lace of the right foot. Anyway, good to know that some bubbles are normal.
I see it now. That's just a normal casting defect.
Many of the legit unpainted hardcopies that are out there were cobbled together by collectors from parts that came out of the old Kenner model shop. These were either reject parts (with flaws) or parts that were never finished for painting. So they often don't look perfect.
You can see a good example of this on the Bossk I have on the Archive. Those are parts that would never have been used on a painted HC. They had tons of flash, air pockets, even a bit of misalignment. By all rights they should have been thrown away. But luckily they weren't, and they turned up 20 years after they were made, rattling around in a box.
But most painted hardcopies are pretty darn close to perfect. Those are the good ones that were cast well, highly finished, etc.
It should also be noted that having a few casting flaws isn't the same as having bad detail. My Bossk, for instance, has a ton of flaws, but the detail is very tight and sharp -- and quite a bit different from the degraded detail found on the production figure.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
Edited by ronsalvatore (09/30/10 11:02 AM)
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Bill_McBride
Reged: 05/01/01
Loc: Washington DC
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ChrisGeorgoulias wrote:
The problem here is that there's no major precedence for forgeries here so people weren't looking for problems. Also, to be honest, there is a large amount of emotion involved where people were getting grail pieces that they were really after. When you have that mindset you really aren't even thinking about problems much less looking for them, but that's actually when you need to have your guard up.
What some people didn't do was to sit and ponder how they managed to get a specific character piece that they've always wanted. In some ways it should have stuck out as being too coincidental.
If a guy shows you a photo of 4 sets of Morag accessories then you have to ask how that's possible and what kind of contacts and level of trust he has. When that guy offers you both painted and unpainted versions of a hardcopy figure that's your absolute favorite figure in the line you need to take a step back. However, at that point emotion and a sense of completeness takes over and you forget to do your due diligence.
You really don't need to be an expert to spot some of this stuff and the first bad pieces I looked at were earlier this year. It seemed fairly focused at the time, but when you consider that not a lot of collector to collector talk was going on things can stay dormant. It wasn't until sales were more public and worried people started talking to people they resold items to that the scale was beginning to take shape.
True, it often does take someone with more experience to point things out, but I think now a lot of collectors know a lot more than they did before this happened. Studying variations and knowing how an action figure is made and what various the stages of development involve all come together to help build a story for a figure.
In the end it does essentially boil down to trust and reputation, but that also depends on publicity to some degree. If people aren't talking then this information doesn't get spread around and problems can fester.
Being secretive can have its drawbacks.
-chris
I couldn't agree more. There are some things I have spent 15+ years looking for, but I can assure you if something suddenly popped up, I would be going over it with a fine tooth comb.
If anything, my time in the hobby has showed me how rare vintage HC's truly are, so if someone pops up with spreadsheets full of complete HCs and HC parts, my BS detector goes off the scale. Having a legit example here and there is one thing, but such a quantity of pieces belonging to one collector is unheard of.
The other thing that I'm just lost on here is why people bought into his whole "keep this secret" line. He was hardly a "secret", and even going over his posts here, his pattern was fairly obvious. The only real reason anyone keeps things like this secret, is to protect a direct Kenner source, not a 2nd or 3rd party.
On a personal level, as I have said before, I truly feel terrible for anyone involved. As Chris pointed out, when we see pieces like this, the collector/passion/emotion side of us can really slap the blinders on. Having these pieces turn out to be possible fakes is just gutting emotionally (not to mention the money involved)
In the end, discussions like this will make us a better and more well informed community.
Bill
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Buying Rare and Unusual Darth Vader Items; Vintage and New
Check out The Darth Vader Toy Museum at: www.sithtoys.com
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Leif_G
Reged: 02/01/06
Loc: BC, Canada
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phidias_barrios wrote:
... I started to choose more wisely and sent ChrisG an email. I asked for his help on the Bib as well on some other pieces of Scott. I sent him some better pics of the Bib and he gave me his expert, objective feedback. This was my moment of clarity.
I think that very often, what's needed most is someone with a more critical eye, an ojective view; someone who isn't excited with the prospect of adding a grail to their collection. It was a wise move conferring with Chris.
I had this exact experience this past week with a different situation. I purchased what appeared to be a very unusal vintage item, and tucked inside the packaging was a letter, an invite to the very first preview of Star Wars on May 1st, 1977! My heart raced with excitement.
Even though I figured it was too good to be true, I had to check it out. I was very exicted just at the prospect of it being legit. The fact that it came with an early vintage item, lent some creditiblity to the prospect. It wasn't an expensive item, so purchased it, and then spoke to a few RS members. One of them directed me to Pete Vilmur. Pete informed me that the item that came with the letter was a modern reproduction; an insert from one of his books. The letter was likely also an insert from the same book, and he told me where to look for the 'reproduction' mark on the letter.
By the time the items arrived at my door, I was feeling much more objective, thanks to Pete. I checked the letter, and what do you know... no reproduction mark! Although it might have been tempting to think it could be real, I realized that the fact it came along with another modern reproduction weighed against it. Just as it weighed in favor of the letter being real when I thought the item was also real. After close examination of the letter, and comparing it to an genuine Star Wars Corporation letterhead paper I have, I realized it was fake. Someone took the reproduced insert from Pete's book, scanned it and printed it with a modern printer, to get rid of the word 'reproduction' on the back side of the letter. The real tip off for me was that I was old enough in 1977 to remember how limited our printing and coping ability was back then. In 1977 their options were use professionally printed letterheads for the letters, or just make one master letter then photostat copies. If anyone rememebers 1970's era photocopying, it was terrible compared to today. There's no way they could have produced a smaller run of letters with colored letterhead that looked like an inexpensive modern colored print jobs. Thanks to Pete snapping me out of my excited bias, I was able to make some rational and objective observations. I sent the items back for a refund. Now I'm a little wiser and just maybe... I'll get the chance to use that experience to help someone else in the future.
So I just want to say thanks to Pete, Chris, Tom Derby, and all the guys here (you know who you are) that share their expertise, objective feedback, and precious time, with their fellow collectors in need of assistance.
Leif
--------------------
Leif's Trade Feedback
Edited by Leif_G (09/30/10 12:19 PM)
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adamb9
Reged: 07/18/01
Loc: NH
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Phidias, i'm sorry for any misunderstanding on the luke. I am ultimately out the money. Unfortunately it looks like i also could be out for 3 other pieces. I bought the luke in june 2008 understanding that it originated directly from a kenner employee. Another long-time collector helped me to buy it. Several expert collectors looked at it with approval. Similar pieces were also displayed on notable collecting websites. Apparently we were all wrong.
I bought luke along w an unpainted bossk and a couple bossk parts. Some of the older collectors here will remember that i've been collecting bossk and other favorite esb characters since the 90s. When i started collecting protos about 10 years ago, i naturally sought esb pieces. From that source, I bought one other piece since the 2 unpainted hcs- a painted bossk (summer 2009) - and one other piece before then- a painted screed (in june 2005). I have been in touch w the screed owner for the past 3-4 weeks, since i first learned from a dealer that it is even being questioned. We are working together as old friends to have the piece investigated.
As soon as i learned about your post from another friend, i emailed you directly w this background info and provided my cell in case you have additional questions. I rarely have a chance to check the forums, and i actually had to "request my password" to this site!
Im glad to hear that you're happy w the rest of your collection. I hope the others directly involved, including myself, can resolve these issues soon.
Regards,
Adam
Apologies for typos from my mobile
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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adamb9 wrote:
Phidias, i'm sorry for any misunderstanding on the luke. I am ultimately out the money. Unfortunately it looks like i also could be out for 3 other pieces. I bought the luke in june 2008 understanding that it originated directly from a kenner employee. Another long-time collector helped me to buy it. Several expert collectors looked at it with approval.
I think what we're discovering is that there are not many qualified experts when it comes to hardcopies.
Have you spoken to Scott about this, Adam?
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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Yehuda_K
Reged: 06/27/05
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tapuvae wrote:
ChrisGeorgoulias wrote:
For Luke Bespin, the poor details are a giveaway and those are noticeable just with comparison to a production figure. However, when you compare them with real legs the difference are more apparent.
An interesting feature is that the rivets on the leg strap disappeared when the figure went to production, but those are present at an early stage like the sculpting and hardcopy. Also, both the lightsaber hilt and the gun holster on the fake are very muddy in their details which is a clear indication that it's been cast from a production figure.
Of course, the UV light also shows the difference in the pieces that isn't visible to the naked eye. However, the UV just reaffirms what you can see with your own eyes such as the poor detailing. True, being able to compare with an authentic piece isn't always an option, but when you are familiar with the quality and detailing that should be present in an authentic piece, the fake pieces are exposed.
Another red flag here is the number of these Luke Bespin figures that were being offered for sale. Including the painted one, it's 3.
In the photos, the authentic legs are on the outside.
Does the real right leg HC have an air bubble on the boot lacing? Perhaps also something on the toe area? I point this out because air bubbles were one of the initial red flags and in this case a real item appears to have the same issue therefore making the presence of air bubbles alone perhaps not an utter red flag.
The authentic hardcopy legs do have some minor defects . most of them have been filled in with original pink sculpting wax. there is a small air bubble in the right boot lace
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http://powerofthetoys.com/afa
please check this out!
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Jediman
Reged: 07/03/04
Loc: Sweden
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Very sorry to hear that so many good people has been hurt by this huge scam!
I really have not so much to add other than i was also offered a large amount of hard copy's and other prototypes but i never made any deal with Scott, some things was just not right.
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Looking for ESB Zuckuss 45/48back and 4LOM 47/48back proof also POTF for these 2 characters.
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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Did anyone ever buy wax (i.e. "sculpted") items from Scott?
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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cfawcett
Reged: 11/06/00
Loc: North Carolina
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I bought a Han Hoth head, but it was always marketed as a cast piece not an original. Still, I think it's fake.
Cj
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WTB: First Shot Warok, Palitoy ESB Han Hoth, PBP Han Hoth (ESB & ROTJ)
Vintage Toy Archive: http://www.12back.com
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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cfawcett wrote:
I bought a Han Hoth head, but it was always marketed as a cast piece not an original. Still, I think it's fake.
Cj
Then people also need to be on the look-out for bad wax stuff. It's disconcerting to me to hear that he was selling wax "casts" of figure parts. Probably even easier to whip up on your own than hardcopy parts.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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ronsalvatore wrote:
Many of the legit unpainted hardcopies that are out there were cobbled together by collectors from parts that came out of the old Kenner model shop. These were either reject parts (with flaws) or parts that were never finished for painting. So they often don't look perfect.
Yes, it's only because those things were basically discarded pieces back in the day that they even survived at all. Of course there have been a number of nice, finished, unpainted examples out there.
ronsalvatore wrote:
It should also be noted that having a few casting flaws isn't the same as having bad detail. My Bossk, for instance, has a ton of flaws, but the detail is very tight and sharp -- and quite a bit different from the degraded detail found on the production figure.
It's the degraded detail and the features that were picked up from plastic injection molds that speak volumes with these pieces that I've seen so far.
The presence of air pockets or bubbles has been mentioned as a red flag, but I think it would be more accurate to clarify that a bit and say "an excessive amount of air pockets". It's the quantity that's so damning here, but I guess that's all relative to what someone is familiar with. Air pockets form some even on nice castings, but moreso on the authentic ones that were rejects or unused. However on many of these pieces that came from Scott there are literally dozens and even hundreds of tiny air bubbles when you look at these things under magnification. That's way too many.
However, air bubbles are just one part of looking at pieces like this. You have to take the whole piece into account when you're trying to determine its legitimacy.
-chris
--------------------
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
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wooten
Reged: 09/13/00
Loc: Galloway, OH
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ronsalvatore wrote:
Then people also need to be on the look-out for bad wax stuff. It's disconcerting to me to hear that he was selling wax "casts" of figure parts. Probably even easier to whip up on your own than hardcopy parts.
I've privately expressed concerns over some of the micro waxes that Scott was known to have. In the collection pics he sent me, only a lobot was clearly pictured, but you could see a control room Vader and Bespin freeze chamber Vader wax as well. Those had some red flags that were of concern to me even back a year ago. I cannot say they're fake without a better look, but I believe at least one of those poses has a sculpt in another question, which is a concern.
One thing's certain, Ron's right that casted wax is a whole lot easier to do than hardcopies. I'd encourage anyone that may have wax stuff from Scott to speak up, or speak up even if buying wax stuff was discussed.
-John
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John Wooten
http://www.oswcc.com
http://www.theswca.com
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AndyL
Reged: 01/25/02
Loc: PA
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PM sent to Jordan about Mon Julpa head.
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Broc
Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
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The only wax I'm aware of that was offered around was the Han Hoth head that Cj bought and there was a Screed head as well. On the sale list I seen, they were both labeled as: "Wax copy? No parting lines w\disk" I just assumed he meant casts.
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Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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Broc wrote:
The only wax I'm aware of that was offered around was the Han Hoth head that Cj bought and there was a Screed head as well. On the sale list I seen, they were both labeled as: "Wax copy? No parting lines w\disk" I just assumed he meant casts.
I remember seeing the Screed head back when it was for sale and advising a friend to avoid it. It looked really shiny, if I remember correctly.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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JohnA
Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
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He offered me the Screed as wax with disc. His email lead me to believe he was implying a sculpt. When I told him it wasn't he said, "of course it's not". I still think he was pushing it as a sculpt to me.
I've seen the Lobot Micro wax in person. It was paired with a painted and unpainted. I think the unpainted looked good but the painted was the same kind of textured flat paint and the color underneath was that same grey primer or resin. The wax was pristine, no pencil part lines, no damage, looked fresh from a mold. I told the owner that I had concerns when I saw both last summer. It's up to him if he wants to come forward but I hope he will. I almost got the idea that maybe the unpainted was real and used to cast the others but with everything coming to light I'd insist on the unpainted being tested too.
John
--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character
-Shai Hulud
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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JohnA wrote:
He offered me the Screed as wax with disc. His email lead me to believe he was implying a sculpt. When I told him it wasn't he said, "of course it's not". I still think he was pushing it as a sculpt to me.
I've seen the Lobot Micro wax in person. It was paired with a painted and unpainted. I think the unpainted looked good but the painted was the same kind of textured flat paint and the color underneath was that same grey primer or resin. The wax was pristine, no pencil part lines, no damage, looked fresh from a mold. I told the owner that I had concerns when I saw both last summer. It's up to him if he wants to come forward but I hope he will. I almost got the idea that maybe the unpainted was real and used to cast the others but with everything coming to light I'd insist on the unpainted being tested too.
John
The thing is, it's really odd for a cast to have a disk in it. I think we talked about that back when you were looking at it.
Most of the casts I've seen seem to have been made to get a feel for how an accessory fit on the given part, or to preserve an early iteration of a figure in 3D form, or even to help an infrequently-used mold to retain its proper shape. A disk would only be incorporated if that cast was going to be sculpted into a more finished state -- meaning that the "cast" would eventually become a "sculpt."
Anyway, both wax cast heads that I have include no disks. One is a Lando Skiff, which I assume was made to serve as a dummy when creating the helmet. The other is a Leia Bespin, a figure whose head went through at least a few revisions prior to finalization.
I do have a white Bespin Guard torso cast which has a buck in it. My guess is that it was intended to serve as the basis for the later black Bespin Guard, but then abandoned for some reason.
--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
Edited by ronsalvatore (10/01/10 02:26 PM)
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JohnA
Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Another bad sign, which I completely forgot about, is that he said he mic'd it out and the wax was the same size as the HC head he sent me. I found that odd since the head on the HC was a different size than the sculpted head and known HCs. I guess I know why now. Glad I stayed away from that piece or I'd be out even more money.
John
--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character
-Shai Hulud
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jdebord
Reged: 05/07/02
Loc: California
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Sorry to read of these issues.
Has Scott McWilliams made any public statement about the issues raised in this topic?
What is the date of the last refund issued by Scott McWilliams?
Has anyone compiled a list of the specific pieces that they believe to be fraudulent, when sold, who sold to, sale price, and status of refund?
Thanks,
Jason DeBord
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www.OriginalPropBlog.com
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TedMiller
Reged: 03/11/10
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So, are you guys actualy taking action against this guy, or is the issue just fading away so he can get away with it?
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cfawcett
Reged: 11/06/00
Loc: North Carolina
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It is not going away. These things just take time.
Cj
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WTB: First Shot Warok, Palitoy ESB Han Hoth, PBP Han Hoth (ESB & ROTJ)
Vintage Toy Archive: http://www.12back.com
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phidias_barrios
Reged: 12/14/05
Loc: los angeles
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jdebord wrote:
What is the date of the last refund issued by Scott McWilliams?
Jason DeBord
AFAIK, Broc and I were the only ones to get monetary refunds from Scott. My first refund was for my painted Bib Fortuna (w/ filled-in peg holes) around September of last year (2009). That was the only refund I received directly from Scott. Shortly after that, I got a refund from Broc for my unpainted IG-88 (w/ sanded COO) which he got from Scott. Broc really manned up for me and he was able to get the refund from Scott.
Last I heard, Cj is still gathering information from people.
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Broc
Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
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jdebord wrote:
What is the date of the last refund issued by Scott McWilliams?
Scott sent me refunds on 4 seperate occasions. The first one being on 1-31-2010 which was for the piece Phidias bought (IG-88 w/ sanded COO). Then I received 3 more refunds over the next month for various pieces I was uncomfortable with. The dates for all refunds were as follows:
January 31st 2010
Febuary 6th 2010
Febuary 11th 2010
Febuary 22nd 2010
Like I said earlier, Scott was quite accomadating in the beginning on giving refunds when I pointed out concerns about the pieces I wanted to return. He seemed to understand why I thought they were fake. However, by the time I received the last refund he seemed frustrated and said he was "done with this at this point no matter what".
In the months since the last refund, I had some other pieces that came from Scott checked out and sure enough they are fake as well. I sent him an email explaining the situation and nicely asked to return them for a refund. He responded saying he feels "I started the witch hunt" against him and said he "will not be giving anymore monetary refunds". He then closed his email with "Thank you for many great years."
I replied to that emails explaining my side of it and kindly asked him to reconsider and even said I would be willing to accept legit pieces with a solid history/provenance as a refund. I never received a reply and haven't heard from him since.
It's an unfortunate situation not only for myself but for very close friends of mine and the hobby as a whole. I've been absolutely gutted by the things that have transpired over the last 9 months or so.
--------------------
Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)
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The_Grinder
Reged: 07/27/02
Loc: OH
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I have been wondering if anyone has concerns about ownership of all prototypes. What I mean is, all real prototypes originated employees from Kenner (now owned by Hasbro). The employees, even back in the 70's and 80's, had to sign documents that forbid them from removing any pre production materials from the facility. I don't believe there was an expiration to this agreement. So, essentially, all prototypes that were purchased from current and ex-employees can be considered STOLEN property. If this is true, then Hasbro can take action and request the return of these stolen materials. The reason I bring this is up is because of the (potential) lawsuit regarding fake prototypes - which could possibly become a newsworthy case and draw unwanted attention to prototype collections. This could also cause lawyers from Hasbro to take action for the return of their materials by those who posess them (some would be easier to track down since their collections appear in books....). Perhaps Hasbro does not currently think that those old prototypes have much dollar value, but if they catch wind of the large sums of money involved in a class action lawsuit, they may think othewise. Any concerns?
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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The_Grinder wrote:
Any concerns?
Nope.
-chris
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The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
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The_Grinder
Reged: 07/27/02
Loc: OH
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ChrisGeorgoulias wrote:
The_Grinder wrote:
Any concerns?
Nope.
-chris
Why?
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bowspearer
Reged: 05/29/10
Loc: Central Coast, Australia
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Does anyone know if this extends to other Kenner toylines besides Star Wars. I bought some M.A.S.K. protos from baldylox a few months back and after reading this, I'm worried they might have ultimately come from the same source.
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cfawcett
Reged: 11/06/00
Loc: North Carolina
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1. Hasbro isn't in the prototype business. All the prototypes put together is chump change to them. They're like a half a billion dollar company. I would be surprised if all the prototypes out there would hit more than a million or two in total value.
2. I'm not sure where you get the idea that employees in the 70's-80's had to sign something. I've never heard that. This stuff was pretty much viewed as garbage after it's use. In fact, one collector rescued a lot of stuff from the Kenner dumpster in the 90's.
So, while technically it might be stolen, Hasbro has no financial interest in recovering it, nor any interest in a possible legal battle because the ownership is not a simple question with a simple answer.
Cj
--------------------
WTB: First Shot Warok, Palitoy ESB Han Hoth, PBP Han Hoth (ESB & ROTJ)
Vintage Toy Archive: http://www.12back.com
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Todd_Hudson
Reged: 02/15/03
Loc: Maui HI
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bowspearer wrote:
Does anyone know if this extends to other Kenner toylines besides Star Wars. I bought some M.A.S.K. protos from baldylox a few months back and after reading this, I'm worried they might have ultimately come from the same source.
I can't 100% guarantee it didnt come from Scott...but I'll go as far and say 99.99% it didnt come from Scott.
You should be good to go.
Todd
--------------------
"Now if your stealing money from your grandma and donating plasma to complete your Cheif Chirpa focus bootleg set then thats no fun and should probably be avoided."
http://WWW.TODDONMAUI.COM
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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I think it's important not to derail this thread with some hypothetical debates. If Hasbro legal cared about these types of things then they would have taken great care and concern when moving the Morgue and shutting down the old Kenner building in Cincinnati and they didn't. We could go on an on about this, but not in this thread.
The issue at hand is that a large amount of fakes have spread in the marketplace yet they all trace back to a single collector. That collector acknowledged the problems by giving out hassle-free refunds in the beginning then went silent when more and more people realized that they had been taken and demanded restitution.
-chris
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The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
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Arnaud
Reged: 07/07/05
Loc: Paris, France
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1) Prototypes were not stolen from Kenner. This is a false assumption.
2) It would make no difference if they had been stolen. The statute of limitation expired many years ago. This is a non-issue.
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kmm
Reged: 07/03/07
Loc: Chicago, IL
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Jordan already knows this and has contacted me about it but I thought I would ask you guys for my own benefit. I've been collecting loose variation figures for years now. I've traded with a number of scummers. So, I am pretty new to the whole prototype area. I tried doing as much research as I could but my knowledge is nothing like what I normally collect. When I attended CV, I saw the green Mon Julpa head in the case. I thought, what better way to introduce myself into this part of the hobby than to buy a, relatively speaking, more inexpensive item. Now I find out that most likely the head is a fake. Guys what should I have been looking for? I don't see air bubbles on the head. The details look pretty crisp. The only funny thing I noticed was inside the hole on the bottom of the head, the plastic appears to be white instead of the dynacast green. I guess as a collector, you are always going to run risks despite how knowledgable you are but if I'm going to get into prototype collecting, I'm going to have to be way more prepared than I am now. Anyway, thanks for any insights.
Kevin
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Always looking for vintage Lili Ledy variants.
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The_Grinder
Reged: 07/27/02
Loc: OH
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I had no intention of derailing the topic. My point was that a lawsuit becomes public, and therefore may drag Hasbro's name into the mix. Hasbro, and every other toy company HATES having any negative PR, and this case could cast a negative light on them and their security. Also, the case may need witnesses who would authenticate items they have sold to collectors, and I am pretty sure no ex-employee will want to be part of that. Why do you think those proto-selling ex-employees wanted to stay so quiet about things? It's because they knew they could get into hot water with Hasbro, even today. Furthermore, regarding statutes of limitations, I wondered that myself, and I asked that same question to the ex-Chief Council of Kenner in the recent past, and he said that all pre-production materials are still property of Kenner/Hasbro. Period. I'm no lawyer, but he is, and very qualified to answer that question. Hasbro may not be driven by money to get them returned, but they may be incentified by bad press about a court case, or even because they desire to do promotional event, like a toy museum some day (Mattel did this with Hot Wheels about 10 years ago and had to re-purchase all much of their archives that they lost over the years...). If any collector can show me a letter from Hasbro that notes that their prototypes are OK to have in their posession, then I will agree they are not stolen property. Does anyone have a letter stating this from Hasbro? Again, not trying to derail, but this Scott issue may bring up more stuff than just a guy who made fake prototypes.
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bowspearer
Reged: 05/29/10
Loc: Central Coast, Australia
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The only problem with this is that in some cases, these were actually rescued from dumpsters. The legal term at play here is not ownership in that case, but abandonment. In any cases where things were thrown out, Hasbro cannot claim theft any more than you or I could if we threw something out and someone took it from our carbage bins when they were out on the street.
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Dax
Reged: 07/30/00
Loc: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
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Chris already mentioned this but hypotheticals about legal rights of posession are really not relevant to this post. Ordinarily I'd be happy to see threads morph and grow into new areas but considering the gravity of this thread it would be respectful not to railroad it in a new direction. If you'd like to continue this new discussion perhaps it would be better to start a new thread?
--------------------
"I'm sorry, but I'm not going to watch the Clone Wars TV series until I've seen the Clone Wars movie. I prefer to let George Lucas disappoint me in the order he intended.
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Arnaud
Reged: 07/07/05
Loc: Paris, France
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Grinder, your ex-Kenner contact gave you the corporate reply. Again, this is not an issue. Don't try to read into why Kenner employees or ex-employees or anyone selling prototypes would rather be discreet. As for Hasbro or large companies not wanting to see their names brought into legal battles, don't worry, it happens to them all the time and you never hear about it. Scott is not Bernard Madoff. He's just a little con man. If anything, there are enough people here wih contacts at Hasbro to make sure Hasbro would support the plaintiffs. Again, the topic is not without merit but like others have said, it's the wrong thread to discuss it.
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Mattias_Rendahl
Reged: 09/07/04
Loc: S W E D E N
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Here are pics of the fake Lumats.
When you know what to look for it's easy to see how bad they are. The dynacast color which both have, some of the details, bad quality, the paint on the painted one is way too 'new' etc.
Scott actually had 2(!) unpainted Lumats, he showed pics of the real one when I bought it, I recieved the one in this picture, but was naive and didn't compare and look closely, because that was fake. There are clear signs that both of the ones pictured here, were cast from the real one.
At least I now got the real one, we made the swop at C5. I'll take some comparison pics later on and it will be even clearer.
Mattias
--------------------
Looking for all kind of prototypes, especially for Luke Farmboy, Leia Hoth, Dengar and Endor related characters
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The_Grinder
Reged: 07/27/02
Loc: OH
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Arnaud wrote:
Again, the topic is not without merit but like others have said, it's the wrong thread to discuss it.
No problem. I understand...On with the witch hunt!
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Yehuda_K
Reged: 06/27/05
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So apparently Scottcopies were cast from either production figures or directly from original Hardcopies. Although the above fake ewoks have thick paint and many bubbles and the wrong color resin, there may be others that arent so clear. There could be unpainted fakes made in better color resin or fake carbolon which seems to have a better color match cast from authentic hardcopies with less bubble flaws. Yuck
--------------------
http://powerofthetoys.com/afa
please check this out!
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phidias_barrios
Reged: 12/14/05
Loc: los angeles
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The_Grinder wrote:
Arnaud wrote:
Again, the topic is not without merit but like others have said, it's the wrong thread to discuss it.
No problem. I understand...On with the witch hunt!
That's kind of a weird comment. The pieces in question are undeniably fake (some more convincing than others). Scott didn't/couldn't provide verifiable provenance for said pieces. Aside from ripped collectors trying to get their money back and warning potential buyers about it, what exactly is a witch hunt about all of this Steve? Your name is Steve Fink right? Excuse me for using your real name. I feel kind of silly addressing somebody as The Grinder for some reason.
Anyways, if you have something else to add to this thread aside from hypotheticals, go right ahead.
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tapuvae
Reged: 12/20/03
Loc: us
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Mattias_Rendahl wrote:
Here are pics of the fake Lumats.
When you know what to look for it's easy to see how bad they are. The dynacast color which both have, some of the details, bad quality, the paint on the painted one is way too 'new' etc.
Scott actually had 2(!) unpainted Lumats, he showed pics of the real one when I bought it, I recieved the one in this picture, but was naive and didn't compare and look closely, because that was fake. There are clear signs that both of the ones pictured here, were cast from the real one.
At least I now got the real one, we made the swop at C5. I'll take some comparison pics later on and it will be even clearer.
Mattias
Wow that unpainted one looks so bad I'm surprised anyone bought it. That's a lot of air bubbles there. On another note, I do love the look of hand painted pieces, fake or not.
Grinder, this issue of legality has come up a few times over the years. Rest assured, the brewing banking scandals will overshadow something like this. Still, a major lawsuit would make the news for a day or two if only because it fits into an existing theme of Star Wars nerddom."
Edited by tapuvae (10/09/10 10:10 PM)
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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The_Grinder wrote:
No problem. I understand...On with the witch hunt!
The only hunt here is the hunt to find out how many fakes have been put into the marketplace, all originating from Scott McWilliams. That's the one common denominator with all of the pieces.
If it was a witch hunt then I wouldn't be sitting here with figures sent to me from 7 collectors all over that all have the same construction and materials, all stemming from the same source. Currently, I have no less than 7 painted figures, 6 unpainted figures, 3 micro pieces, and an Ewoks piece. All of which are bad.
And that's what I have in my hands at the moment. In addition to these, I was able to ID 4 bad pieces simply from photos sent to me months ago which resulted in refunded or exchanges by Scott.
Currently I am seeing things that are cast directly from production figures as well as things that have been cast from actual hardcopies - hardcopies that I know were in Scott's possession.
And to be fair, I am not condemning all pieces I know that have come from Scott. Just recently I looked at photos of pieces sold at Celebration V that were from Scott, but were good. Mixing good in with bad pieces makes it hard for people to wrap their heads around how to react and understand what's going on.
To dismiss all of these victims by claiming that there's a witch hunt going on when the evidence is clear that they have been sold fraudulent pieces is quite disrespectful if you ask me.
-chris
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The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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Here are some images to further define what happened with the Lumat sale. The following collection photo was sent to Mattias by Scott when he was selling his unpainted Lumat hardcopy.
As Mattias mentioned earlier in this thread, it was only when he later found that image and compared it with the piece that he actually received from Scott did he realize that a switch had been made.
Furthermore, the piece in the collection photo matches this piece which was shown in a magazine many years ago. The tell-tale sign being the damaged left ear.
In this photo one hardcopy is just of the torso and the other is a hardcopy made once the cowl was sculpted onto the torso. This would have been the "cowl hardcopy". The limbs were simply transferred to the bare figure and the hardcopy cowl hardcopy was sold to someone else. The vinyl cowl was simply tossed out as it was from a production figure.
Go back and read Mattias' description about the "real limbs" statement that Scott made to him when he replaced the fake Lumat with the authentic one.
I was a classic bait and switch.
-chris
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The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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kmm wrote:
When I attended CV, I saw the green Mon Julpa head in the case. I thought, what better way to introduce myself into this part of the hobby than to buy a, relatively speaking, more inexpensive item. Now I find out that most likely the head is a fake.
I'm sorry to say that it's almost positively a fake. I've got photos of that one and both the material color and surface texture look wrong. It looks like plastic and looks "brand new" on top of that plus I think it would fail the black light test.
If it's real then it will glow a bright green under UV light in a dark room. If the piece is fake then it will be very dark and flat.
You need a long-wavelength UV light, not a Halloween party bulb in order to properly perform this test. This is the easiest way for someone to spot problems if they are not familiar with the look and feel of authentic Dynacast material. Once you know the material then you can tell by feel. The real stuff has a ceramic-like hardness and has a somewhat "chalky" surface texture.
-chris
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The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
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Lee_Gray
Reged: 01/08/03
Loc: England
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Re: chituhr whip
From: smcwilliams
01/12/09 08:38 PM
I was wondering if you are still looking for any of the UDE pieces at this time?
Scott
I dont usually get involved but this is a message I got in my inbox at the end of last year when I had earlier been looking for certain items... I am glad now I said no.
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My Star Wars collection
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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tapuvae wrote:
Wow that unpainted one looks so bad I'm surprised anyone bought it. That's a lot of air bubbles there.
They both look atrocious, but I think the painted one is actually worse. Look at the texture on that thing. It looks like the paint was mixed with sand and debris before being applied.
Kenner wasn't in the business of making painted hardcopies that looked like garbage.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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WThompson
Reged: 01/09/04
Loc: Ontario,Canada
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Wow,
Getting up to speed with this one. I recall asking for some advice to other collectors in 2008 for some Repro 10 comparisons as an IG88 I longed for came up for sale. I had to get some opinions on it as I wasn't comfortable with the pics and i've had mainly Dynacast and Carbalon pieces in the past bought from basically the same people.
Looks like there was alot of things brewing at that time. Broc, John and others sorry to read up on this now and seeing what's going on.
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IG-88,Zuckuss,4-LOM and Imperial Commander Protoypes, Lili Ledy Moc
www.behindthetoys.com
Edited by WThompson (10/10/10 11:48 PM)
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oceans11
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: sacramento
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ChrisGeorgoulias wrote:
kmm wrote:
When I attended CV, I saw the green Mon Julpa head in the case. I thought, what better way to introduce myself into this part of the hobby than to buy a, relatively speaking, more inexpensive item. Now I find out that most likely the head is a fake.
I'm sorry to say that it's almost positively a fake. I've got photos of that one and both the material color and surface texture look wrong. It looks like plastic and looks "brand new" on top of that plus I think it would fail the black light test.
If it's real then it will glow a bright green under UV light in a dark room. If the piece is fake then it will be very dark and flat.
You need a long-wavelength UV light, not a Halloween party bulb in order to properly perform this test. This is the easiest way for someone to spot problems if they are not familiar with the look and feel of authentic Dynacast material. Once you know the material then you can tell by feel. The real stuff has a ceramic-like hardness and has a somewhat "chalky" surface texture.
-chris
Not meant as a direct attack on Jordan here, and I hope he doesn't take it as such, but this is the type of problem that I was predicting with Hollywood Heroes selling these pieces for Scott at CV. Respectable company that has had a lot of good, legit items. Items of dubious nature being sold in their booth; even if it wasn't "directly" sold by Hollywood Heroes and they referred all questions to Scott (when he was there). Newer collector, trusting the Hollywood Heroes name and their respectability, purchases item and then finds out it's fake. I trust that Jordan, and any other seller/dealer out there, will have learned from this situation. You have to inspect what you are selling, even if it's on a consignment basis, to ensure that it is legit as to not tarnish the credibility of the business that you have.
To kmm, who did the original post, don't be discouraged by this item turning out to be a fake. You posited the question of what should you be looking for, and how could you tell if it was real or not. Doing your homework is definitely key, and getting provenance is also important with these types of pieces. You can rest in knowledge that these pieces also fooled some more established, knowledgable collectors so you're in good company. Also, luckily, Jordan will make things right as he is a stand up guy, so in this case it's good that you bought from an established dealer and not directly from Scott, who most likely, based upon interaction with others, would not give you a refund.
Don
watching the fake hard copy rock thrown in the water create a ripple effect and spread out further and further.
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Always looking for stormtrooper items-bootlegs, pre production, moc, foreign, etc
"In any other town they'd be the bad guys..."
Never confuse movement with action.
~ Ernest Hemingway ~
Edited by oceans11 (10/11/10 02:17 PM)
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oceans11
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: sacramento
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(forgive the two posts back to back but I felt it was better to seperate them due to content, instead of doing one long rambling post).
Damn those Lumat's look bad. I took a very quick look at the first pic, with both unpainted and painted side by side, and thought they looked "ok". Then the close ups hit and all the flaws, bubbles, and bad textures, were super noticeable, and they both look like garbage. Went back and took a closer look at the first side by side pic and noticed how bad they really look. Good to hear that Mattias actually got the "real" one at CV, but shame that this was even an issue; especially as it was bait and switch by Scott.
Mixing in real with fake was smart on his end as it added to the general confusion of things. Having legit pieces gave him that credibility and respectability so when he turned around and moved the fakes, people didn't question their legitimacy as much. Still, when people started talking and comparing, the game was up. What I find interesting is that he offered up refunds to people originally for the "fake" ones. Most likely this was done to keep this quiet, and probably still under the directions of "don't discuss with anyone else". The jig on this might have been over sooner if these fakes and refunds given were discussed earlier.
In response to Grinderman's post, I believe this has been discussed before in a different posting in the past. The consensus then was that Hasbro doesn't care. Kenner was a different company at the time, prior to the Hasbro merge, and they didn't have as strict policy in place regarding these items and employees being able to take them home. Policies regarding these actions and items have since changed over time. It would probably be more of a headache for Hasbro to try to reaquire these items and create bad press for them that they don't want. Especially for items that they most likely don't need anymore.
I do find it odd that Grinderman, with almost no posts comes in and directs this thread in a different direction. Serving as a bit of distraction to the real issue at hand; namely Scott and the avalance of fake hard copies that he has unleashed upon the community.
Don
evidentially rich with conspiracy theories lately
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Always looking for stormtrooper items-bootlegs, pre production, moc, foreign, etc
"In any other town they'd be the bad guys..."
Never confuse movement with action.
~ Ernest Hemingway ~
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The_Grinder
Reged: 07/27/02
Loc: OH
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oceans11 wrote:
I do find it odd that Grinderman, with almost no posts comes in and directs this thread in a different direction. Serving as a bit of distraction to the real issue at hand; namely Scott and the avalance of fake hard copies that he has unleashed upon the community.
Don - I find this thread very interesting, as i'm sure many other collectors who are not directly involved with the issue. I do not post very often, but this thread raises new and interesting questions and issues about collecting (like ownership, authenticity, accountability, etc.). Being that the thread is in a forum which is public that encourages the community to comment and give their opinions, I figured I would do that. After posting and reading the comments about my post, I assumed wrong. If you are suggesting that I am in some way associated with Scott, well, you're wrong because...I AM SCOTT! (joke). In any case, I will sit on my hands and not comment any longer, since I suppose this thread is not about bringing up topics other than the specific one at hand.
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greendynawaxer
Reged: 10/12/10
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I have been lurking around here for some time now and have decided to throw my hat in the ring.
This all comes down to BUYER BEWARE! No one put a gun to your head and forced you to buy these things. The buyer has the ultimate responsibility for the purchase. If you didn't do enough research than it is your bad. People are crying, talking about legal action because they got burned, but how many great deals have you had that you don't talk about.
I know many the protos out there were bought for very little from kenner employees and then sold for big profit. This is a risky business, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
Stop crying and enjoy the good items you have and all the great deals you pulled off. This whole thing is a hobby for enjoyment remember.
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CloudCity_Gangzr
Reged: 04/26/07
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The_Grinder wrote:
this thread raises new and interesting questions and issues about collecting (like ownership, authenticity, accountability, etc.). Being that the thread is in a forum which is public that encourages the community to comment and give their opinions, I figured I would do that. After posting and reading the comments about my post, I assumed wrong.
I dont think you assumed wrong. I think you raise some interesting points. You just need to start a new thread.
-Chad
Edited by CloudCity_Gangzr (10/12/10 11:59 AM)
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cfawcett
Reged: 11/06/00
Loc: North Carolina
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Ultimately this is about fraud. Blaming the victims is abhorrent to me. It would be one thing if it were something on ebay and the seller didn't respond or simply said "I don't know." Yeah, you're taking a risk there. But Scott didn't do that. He told outright lies and intentionally deceived collectors who were his "friends". Not only is it morally reprehensible, but fraud is illegal.
Cj
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WTB: First Shot Warok, Palitoy ESB Han Hoth, PBP Han Hoth (ESB & ROTJ)
Vintage Toy Archive: http://www.12back.com
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Michael_Ritter
Reged: 11/24/01
Loc: Long Island, NY
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greendynawaxer wrote:
I have been lurking around here for some time now and have decided to throw my hat in the ring.
This all comes down to BUYER BEWARE! No one put a gun to your head and forced you to buy these things. The buyer has the ultimate responsibility for the purchase. If you didn't do enough research than it is your bad. People are crying, talking about legal action because they got burned, but how many great deals have you had that you don't talk about.
I know many the protos out there were bought for very little from kenner employees and then sold for big profit. This is a risky business, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
Stop crying and enjoy the good items you have and all the great deals you pulled off. This whole thing is a hobby for enjoyment remember.
I see you just registered today so I am willing to give you the benefit of doubt that you are not posting just to go trolling and welcome you.
I'm sorry to say but your post is completely wrong. While there is a caveat of Buyer Beware for any deal, you are unfairly placing blame on the victims here. This is not about buyers not doing their homework or research on these items. It is only about one thing, a scammer who purposely created and sold counterfeit prototypes for profit. Scott McWilliams got greedy and got caught, and anyone who was a victim of his should do anything within their means to recover their losses. If a person is counterfeiting $100 bills and you happen to get one, then lose the $100 because it was confiscated, who is to blame? The criminal who counterfeited the $100 bill or you the victim?
Stop trying to deflect the issue. There is no correlation between this scam that Scott McWilliams did and the legitimate purchasing of prototype material from former employees no matter what they paid. You come across as quite bitter that some people were able to access those Kenner employees and acquire the legit prototypes before you. I don't know why you would even bring this issue up unless you are jealous of these legit purchases.
Once again we have to keep our eye on the topic at hand, that what Scott McWilliams did was wrong and criminal. Just as criminal as anyone creating counterfeit Gucci handbags or recent release movie DVDs. Do not blame the victims here.
Mike
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"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!"
Looking for SWS.com's Vader's Trap print #14
Looking for R2 Prototypes MOC's & Cobot too! Also Droids R2 Original Art
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Rebojazz
Reged: 06/08/06
Loc: Wheeling, WV
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greendynawaxer wrote:
Stop crying and enjoy the good items you have and all the great deals you pulled off. This whole thing is a hobby for enjoyment remember.
Absolutely, quit crying about the $2000 that many people got ripped off from a respective member of the community and just focus on the ligitimate pieces in their collections. Seriousely!? That's the most insane thing I've heard. If you just found out that you just spent a couple grand on "fake" items are you just going to say "well, screw it. I have some other nice one's here anyway"?
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Steven A. Weimer,
JediconWV Co-Organizer
www.jediconwv.net
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DarthBerizing
Reged: 09/23/08
Loc: Dutchess County, NY
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greendynawaxer wrote:
This all comes down to BUYER BEWARE! No one put a gun to your head and forced you to buy these things. The buyer has the ultimate responsibility for the purchase. If you didn't do enough research than it is your bad. People are crying, talking about legal action because they got burned, but how many great deals have you had that you don't talk about.
I am going to assume you're a troll of some kind but , while I normally wouldn't feed you, I do want to point out that you are in fact wrong.
Caveat Venditor is a term used for this transaction. Most people know the "Caveat Emptor" which or course is "Buyer Beware".
Caveat Venditor is the other side of that coin. It simply says that the seller is liable if a product is found to be defective or not to specification (as outlined in the sale). The only way around that is to have a contract that expressly shows the selling party disclaims liability along with the buyer consenting to the terms.
So long story short, unless Scott can prove that the buyers all agreed to a disclaimer of liability he is wrong. I won't even go into the fraud and such.
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My Feedback
http://threads.rebelscum.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3481796&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#3481796
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wooten
Reged: 09/13/00
Loc: Galloway, OH
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greendynawaxer wrote:
I have been lurking around here for some time now and have decided to throw my hat in the ring.
This all comes down to BUYER BEWARE! No one put a gun to your head and forced you to buy these things. The buyer has the ultimate responsibility for the purchase. If you didn't do enough research than it is your bad. People are crying, talking about legal action because they got burned, but how many great deals have you had that you don't talk about.
I know many the protos out there were bought for very little from kenner employees and then sold for big profit. This is a risky business, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
Stop crying and enjoy the good items you have and all the great deals you pulled off. This whole thing is a hobby for enjoyment remember.
How brave of you to register today and post this under some anonymous name. You'll pardon me if I can't take you that seriously.
Prices were always agreed upon between employees and buyers. It's a free market. However, when something is misrepresented, that is fraud. I'd think even a guy called "greendynawaxer" would understand that.
-John
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John Wooten
http://www.oswcc.com
http://www.theswca.com
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Leif_G
Reged: 02/01/06
Loc: BC, Canada
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greendynawaxer wrote:
Stop crying and enjoy the good items you have and all the great deals you pulled off. This whole thing is a hobby for enjoyment remember.
So your philosophy is that when people commit crimes, the victims should say & do nothing, and just let the criminal get away with their crime? You think your neighborhood would be safe if we just turned a blind eye to criminals?
I have to say... if you've lurked a long time, and just now created an account to give us this 'important message', you're sense of perspective is completely screwed up. Oh, and welcome to the forums.
Leif
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Leif's Trade Feedback
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theguiltyone
Reged: 07/15/04
Loc: London. UK
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greendynawaxer wrote:
I have been lurking around here for some time now and have decided to throw my hat in the ring.
This all comes down to BUYER BEWARE! No one put a gun to your head and forced you to buy these things. The buyer has the ultimate responsibility for the purchase. If you didn't do enough research than it is your bad. People are crying, talking about legal action because they got burned, but how many great deals have you had that you don't talk about.
I know many the protos out there were bought for very little from kenner employees and then sold for big profit. This is a risky business, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
Stop crying and enjoy the good items you have and all the great deals you pulled off. This whole thing is a hobby for enjoyment remember.
greendynawanker, way more appropriate....lurk off!
marc
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http://community.webshots.com/user/theguiltyone
WTB: Andys PBP LXW MOC if he ever finds one (for a fraction of what he paid).
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BradP
Reged: 07/31/04
Loc: Philly
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greendynawaxer----->scott??
thats my first guess..
forgive me if I was wrong..
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LOOKING FOR: Chewbacca items, ANY Chewbacca items. The odder the better.
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AJ_van_Zelst
Reged: 02/01/04
Loc: The Netherlands
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BradP wrote:
greendynawaxer----->scott??
thats my first guess..
forgive me if I was wrong..
I think you are right...but he can't be that stuppid...can he?
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WTB: Ewoks cartoon prototypes: firstshots, ep's, toy fair (incl. Blue Harvest), esp. * Logray *
Edited by AJ_van_Zelst (10/12/10 04:00 PM)
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oceans11
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: sacramento
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The_Grinder wrote:
Arnaud wrote:
Again, the topic is not without merit but like others have said, it's the wrong thread to discuss it.
No problem. I understand...On with the witch hunt!
The_Grinder wrote:
oceans11 wrote:
I do find it odd that Grinderman, with almost no posts comes in and directs this thread in a different direction. Serving as a bit of distraction to the real issue at hand; namely Scott and the avalance of fake hard copies that he has unleashed upon the community.
Don - I find this thread very interesting, as i'm sure many other collectors who are not directly involved with the issue. I do not post very often, but this thread raises new and interesting questions and issues about collecting (like ownership, authenticity, accountability, etc.). Being that the thread is in a forum which is public that encourages the community to comment and give their opinions, I figured I would do that. After posting and reading the comments about my post, I assumed wrong. If you are suggesting that I am in some way associated with Scott, well, you're wrong because...I AM SCOTT! (joke). In any case, I will sit on my hands and not comment any longer, since I suppose this thread is not about bringing up topics other than the specific one at hand.
I'm not directly related to this scandal, as I didn't buy any of the fraudulent pieces, though I had some friends who did. I don't believe you have to have been directly swindled to have opinion or interest on the matter at hand. But there should be some focus to comments offered and posted. Your questions were acknowledged as having merit, but you were told that they would be appropriate for a separate post. Your response, as quote above, was "on with the witch hunt". Weird response if you have no affiliation with Scott. Especially as it isn't an unfounded "witch hunt", but more importantly the discussion and examination of what has essentially been a pretty costly swindle perpetuated on the collecting community.
You can comment as often and as much as you like. Far be it from me to play Moderator, as there are established ones already, and try to tell you what you can or cannot write. THat's not my point, nor is it anyone elses. Nor are we trying to drive you away.
Heck, I welcome your comments and thoughts and discussion on the ownership of prototype items; just in its own seperate post. (Never mind that I am 98% certain that this topic has been discussed before in previous postings). With all the discussion and newer people here on the forum, it's a topic that can be brought up again, and may even be of some interest.
Don
disagreeing with greendynawaxer's "buyer beware" theories also.
--------------------
Always looking for stormtrooper items-bootlegs, pre production, moc, foreign, etc
"In any other town they'd be the bad guys..."
Never confuse movement with action.
~ Ernest Hemingway ~
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oceans11
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: sacramento
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AJ_van_Zelst wrote:
BradP wrote:
greendynawaxer----->scott??
thats my first guess..
forgive me if I was wrong..
I think you are right...but he can't be that stuppid...can he?
After selling fake hard copies (that looked terrible), lying to people for years, exploiting people who were your friends, and ripping people off for thousands of dollars, then I guess anything is possible.
Don
believing the response of "buyer beware" to be the slogan for all scammers and con artists.
--------------------
Always looking for stormtrooper items-bootlegs, pre production, moc, foreign, etc
"In any other town they'd be the bad guys..."
Never confuse movement with action.
~ Ernest Hemingway ~
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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greendynawaxer wrote:
I have been lurking around here for some time now and have decided to throw my hat in the ring.
This all comes down to BUYER BEWARE! No one put a gun to your head and forced you to buy these things. The buyer has the ultimate responsibility for the purchase. If you didn't do enough research than it is your bad. People are crying, talking about legal action because they got burned, but how many great deals have you had that you don't talk about.
I know many the protos out there were bought for very little from kenner employees and then sold for big profit. This is a risky business, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
Stop crying and enjoy the good items you have and all the great deals you pulled off. This whole thing is a hobby for enjoyment remember.
So, by your logic, if someone were to get a great deal at a garage sale, he would then *deserve* to get swindled by someone selling fake goods? Does he also deserve to get punched in the face? Kicked in the nards?
What an amazing ethical standard you've just concocted.
I don't know if you're Scott or not, but your post does a good job of representing the way in which pathological liars often rationalize their untruths.
"The big fish are keeping me down. Therefore, my misdeeds are warranted because they're my only means of getting ahead."
--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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Shane Turgeon
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: Edmonton, Alberta
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Hey everyone, let's not feed the troll by responding to his posts. I can assure people that it's not Scott posting and it looks very likely that it's someone who created a second account to deliberately stir the pot (and someone who should know better). So let's all do the discussion a favour, keep it on track and not respond to the post.
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Shane Turgeon
Author: The Force in the Flesh
www.theforceintheflesh.com
www.tattoosandtoys.com
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The_Grinder
Reged: 07/27/02
Loc: OH
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Shane Turgeon wrote:
Hey everyone, let's not feed the troll by responding to his posts. I can assure people that it's not Scott posting and it looks very likely that it's someone who created a second account to deliberately stir the pot (and someone who should know better). So let's all do the discussion a favour, keep it on track and not respond to the post.
The person who posted is named Neil, and he is a co-worker of mine. We work in a very small office and this this issue has been discussed here and some people have very strong opinions...Neil especially. He is more of a vintage car guy collector then a Star Wars collector, but there are some crossover issues in both fields (fake parts, etc..). I think, from an outsider, he was surprised that buyers seemed to not being taking accountability for their actions, i.e. did not get things authenticated nor have proof from the buyer that they were real. He just had a unique way of communicating his point. He joined today to voice his opinion, but almost as soon as he commented, he was banned from the site. Must be some kind of speed record to get kicked off? Anyway, just wanted to let you know that it was not Scott. Now, on with the.......thread. (see, I listen!).
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kmm
Reged: 07/03/07
Loc: Chicago, IL
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The_Grinder wrote:
Shane Turgeon wrote:
Hey everyone, let's not feed the troll by responding to his posts. I can assure people that it's not Scott posting and it looks very likely that it's someone who created a second account to deliberately stir the pot (and someone who should know better). So let's all do the discussion a favour, keep it on track and not respond to the post.
The person who posted is named Neil, and he is a co-worker of mine. We work in a very small office and this this issue has been discussed here and some people have very strong opinions...Neil especially. He is more of a vintage car guy collector then a Star Wars collector, but there are some crossover issues in both fields (fake parts, etc..). I think, from an outsider, he was surprised that buyers seemed to not being taking accountability for their actions, i.e. did not get things authenticated nor have proof from the buyer that they were real. He just had a unique way of communicating his point. He joined today to voice his opinion, but almost as soon as he commented, he was banned from the site. Must be some kind of speed record to get kicked off? Anyway, just wanted to let you know that it was not Scott. Now, on with the.......thread. (see, I listen!).
I think its a good idea to just ignore this Neil guy. Obviously his remarks are absurd even in the car collector world. Let's try to stick to the topic at hand and not let him hi-jack the discussion.
I mentioned earlier that I purchased a fake Mon Julpa head at CV at the Hollywood Heroes stand. I want to emphasize that Jordan sought me out on these boards, got my phone number, we talked and he immediately refunded my money.
I will definately continue to do business with him. I think that if so many of the experts on this board can be duped by Scott McWilliams, then the same can and obviously did happen to Jordan. Jordan's a stand up guy in my book and this shouldn't reflect badly on him.
--------------------
Always looking for vintage Lili Ledy variants.
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Rasmus_Hult
Reged: 02/06/05
Loc: 59°33'37.89"N 17°30'21.59"E
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cfawcett wrote:
Chris came up with the idea of calling this the Green Harvest based on this shirt: http://theswca.com/index.php?action=disp_item&item_id=74388
I think it's pretty apropos considering the $ involved and that dynacast is green.
Cj
That is probably the most shocking post in all of this debate. To rename a fraud and make the pieces without worth a collectible item? Maybe it is a tongue in cheek thing, god I hope so!
Anyway, I might be on the wrong side of the fence here. I have always been quite careful of the source I buy from, mainly Kathy or one of the running admins of RS or SWCA. I can soooo see how one person can move the whole market (even to sell at CV or the "experts") and not be noticed. Who would have thought to look at a "friend" or Old School collector with some serious cred? As for the HC always being cast wihtout bubbles? Not sure... I have some non 3 3/4" that are pretty poor, that include a plaster cast as well. I also know of three HC of Yoda from the Play Doh set that are in three different collections. You can find mine on the swca and that has loads of bubbles and perhaps was a "throw away" due to this, (still on casting stem)
http://theswca.com/index.php?action=disp_item&item_id=77727
and R2
http://theswca.com/index.php?action=disp_item&item_id=77735
and Luke (which up until the point I was sent a mail was sold as a rebel soldier, Hahahah Think that was Mike M that pointed out to me if I knew my SW characters...)
http://theswca.com/index.php?action=disp_item&item_id=77726
These are tiny pieces though but I am sure that the Yoda figures are casts from the same mold but just more or less successful. As for prototypes being regarded as garbage in the shop that is pretty much true for first shots and test shots since the shuttle for my Jabba PD set was literally picked out of the garbage can by an employee.
I think it is a pretty clear cut case of fraud and also believe that Jordan should get the support from the forum and not have his whole business ruined and be "out" due to a "friend". If Scott does not understand the gravity of trouble heading legally his way then I would ask him to think about his family. Is it worth it? Jail or a criminal record? Since there is only one communication channel open I hope he will listen to reason there.
For all of you out of trust and money I can only send my deepest and most sincere thoughts.
For me this thread has actually reignited my interest in collecting again. I haven't been moved by any post over the past two years and checked in to find this hornets nest and to see how people pull together and most of all how Chris, Bill, Shane, Ron and many many more people just opened the flood gates on how to look at the highest end collectibles in 3 3/4 SW for all to learn and grow. Again I don't mean to sound enthusiastic but reading over these past pages makes me feel a bit proud of being a star wars collecting nerd at 37. A very cool nerd but all the same.
I am how ever pretty sure that reading over the posts that Scott does not want anything to do with this thread and that there are "only" production items left in his collection, brokered or not, and those will not cover the bill..
/Raz
--------------------
HollywoodHeroes wrote:
That 4-LOM is already in a collection... locked up tighter than Lindsay Lohan's grip on a bag of crack.
Jordan
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HollywoodHeroes
Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
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Kevin and Rasmus-
I appreciate the support. I spoke with many collectors/forum members this past weekend at NY Comic Con and they were very helpful in their comments.
Just a quick update: Refund checks have been sent out.
I have spoken to all parties that are owed money and everything is proceeding forward.
As I indicated before, I did not look at any of the prototypes put out at the case. I was frazzled at the show.
The key factor here is that people are being refunded what they are owed and the community is coming together in a positive manner.
Thanks so much,
Jordan
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Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com
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Broc
Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
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HollywoodHeroes wrote:
Kevin and Rasmus-
I appreciate the support. I spoke with many collectors/forum members this past weekend at NY Comic Con and they were very helpful in their comments.
Just a quick update: Refund checks have been sent out.
I have spoken to all parties that are owed money and everything is proceeding forward.
As I indicated before, I did not look at any of the prototypes put out at the case. I was frazzled at the show.
The key factor here is that people are being refunded what they are owed and the community is coming together in a positive manner.
Thanks so much,
Jordan
That's great to hear about the refunds, Jordan. However, do you mean just the people that bought items from you or anyone that has bad items from Scott? If it's the latter, then I've yet to hear from you (or anyone else) about the pieces I have that are bad and need refunded.
-Broc
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Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)
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Rasmus_Hult
Reged: 02/06/05
Loc: 59°33'37.89"N 17°30'21.59"E
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A small question for people posting to ponder over. Why are people mixing up apples and pears here? Even if some items were sold out of HH display at CV that isn't the problem is it? These fakes were sold over many years in "under the radar" deals and not in an "open for everyone to see and touch" display at the largest SW arena to date? I can't help that people are venting their anger at the first available target?
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HollywoodHeroes wrote:
That 4-LOM is already in a collection... locked up tighter than Lindsay Lohan's grip on a bag of crack.
Jordan
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Mattias_Rendahl
Reged: 09/07/04
Loc: S W E D E N
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Broc wrote:
HollywoodHeroes wrote:
Kevin and Rasmus-
I appreciate the support. I spoke with many collectors/forum members this past weekend at NY Comic Con and they were very helpful in their comments.
Just a quick update: Refund checks have been sent out.
I have spoken to all parties that are owed money and everything is proceeding forward.
As I indicated before, I did not look at any of the prototypes put out at the case. I was frazzled at the show.
The key factor here is that people are being refunded what they are owed and the community is coming together in a positive manner.
Thanks so much,
Jordan
That's great to hear about the refunds, Jordan. However, do you mean just the people that bought items from you or anyone that has bad items from Scott? If it's the latter, then I've yet to hear from you (or anyone else) about the pieces I have that are bad and need refunded.
-Broc
I was wonder the same thing. Please clearify, Jordan. I haven't heard back from Scott in a very long time. Not that I think nor expect you to get my money back for my own dealings But it sounded like all involved were getting refunds, which sadly isn't the case.
Mattias
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Looking for all kind of prototypes, especially for Luke Farmboy, Leia Hoth, Dengar and Endor related characters
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HollywoodHeroes
Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
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Hi Broc and Mattias-
I am sorry for the confusion in my last post.
Hollywood Heroes is refunding any pieces that we personally sold. They came through our company, and we take responsibility.
I do not know what is being done with pieces that were direct sales between collectors.
Once again, I am sorry for any confusion.
Jordan
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Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com
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cfawcett
Reged: 11/06/00
Loc: North Carolina
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It's obvious to me from Jordan's post that he means the refunds HH owes people. He says he sent out checks.
Cj
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WTB: First Shot Warok, Palitoy ESB Han Hoth, PBP Han Hoth (ESB & ROTJ)
Vintage Toy Archive: http://www.12back.com
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Broc
Reged: 02/04/01
Loc: USA
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cfawcett wrote:
It's obvious to me from Jordan's post that he means the refunds HH owes people. He says he sent out checks.
Cj
I assumed that is what he meant as well. However, I wanted to be sure because he had posted earlier that he would be advising Scott to issue refunds for everyone with the money from the sale of his collection that he was brokering. I just thought that might be the case from the items sold at NY Comic Con last weekend.
-Broc
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Currently looking for Rebel Soldier, Nien Nunb & General Madine prototypes and pre-production items (Figural or Packaging)
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Bobafettguy
Reged: 12/19/05
Loc: CA.
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Are the pieces sold at NY Comic Con from Scott McWilliams collection?
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Marty - yub yub
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HollywoodHeroes
Reged: 10/10/01
Loc: New Jersey
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One of the refunds was for an item sold at CV. The other was for an item sold last year, which was brokered.
Hope this helps!
Jordan
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Hollywood Heroes
www.hollywoodheroes.com
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oceans11
Reged: 05/18/02
Loc: sacramento
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Rasmus_Hult wrote:
A small question for people posting to ponder over. Why are people mixing up apples and pears here? Even if some items were sold out of HH display at CV that isn't the problem is it? These fakes were sold over many years in "under the radar" deals and not in an "open for everyone to see and touch" display at the largest SW arena to date? I can't help that people are venting their anger at the first available target?
No, I don't believe this is mixing anything up at all. It is taking and viewing the situation as a bigger picture. Scott made and sold fraudulent items. He utilized Hollywood Heroes to sell a bunch of them at the end. Part of the problem was utilizing an estabished, reputable dealer in order to further lend legitimacy to these fake pieces. That aspect needed to be discussed as it was a pretty major part of the "con".
Jordan, taking Scott at his word, was duped. He's stepped up and taken care of anyone who bought fake items from Hollywood Heroes, and has handled this unfortunate situation in what I see as the best possible way. He has admitted the problem, taken steps to resolve it, and ideally has taken steps to prevent it from happening again in the future. That's all we can ask for.
The focus then goes back on Scott, who conversely has not taken any steps to correct things. He's actually remained pretty quiet and this does not bode well for how this is going to play out.
Don
who doesn't see anybody venting anger at Jordan, but respectfully asking questions to which he succinctly responded.
--------------------
Always looking for stormtrooper items-bootlegs, pre production, moc, foreign, etc
"In any other town they'd be the bad guys..."
Never confuse movement with action.
~ Ernest Hemingway ~
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kmm
Reged: 07/03/07
Loc: Chicago, IL
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What are people's thoughts on maybe a separate thread where we post good quality pictures of the known fakes that we have, and discuss what is wrong with them. Some people have already posted pictures here and that's great. Coming from the loose variant collector world I know this would be greatly helpful to me and it sounds like it would help some of the more experienced people here as well. There is, of course, a lot of good information in Gus and Duncan's book on prototypes and on theswca.com. However, if we posted our own personal examples, not only could we gain a better understanding of what and how many fakes are out there, but we would get more specific tips on what to look for instead of just "buy from a reputable dealer," etc. Don't get me wrong, the general tips are great, but I think a thread like the one I'm proposing would be more specific and fill in the gaps of knowledge out there in the collector community.
Kevin
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Always looking for vintage Lili Ledy variants.
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KevinA
Reged: 08/29/05
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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With all the refunds Hollywood Heroes has been doing they must be Scott's main creditor now? I'm not sure how you can still call this guy a buddy when you are out thousands of dollars and have all of this mess to deal with?
Edited by KevinA (10/15/10 04:47 PM)
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Arnaud
Reged: 07/07/05
Loc: Paris, France
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A friend would not have used Jordan's good name and reputation to sell this crap in the first place. When one has friends like that, one doesn't need enemies. Good luck to Jordan.
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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I've been meaning to put this together since my last posting once Mattias sent me a good image of the replacement Lumat that he received from Scott.
This image clearly shows that both fake Lumat pieces were cast from the original hardcopy that Scott had. The line on the ear repair is visible even without the overlay. The painted one is just a painted version of the same casting.
So while the majority of what I've looked at has been simply cast from production action figures, this one clearly shows that copies were made from an original piece.
--------------------
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
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WThompson
Reged: 01/09/04
Loc: Ontario,Canada
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Here is the black IG-88 Hardcopy that was mentioned earlier. I didn't buy this one. ( Although I would like a Genuine one )
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IG-88,Zuckuss,4-LOM and Imperial Commander Protoypes, Lili Ledy Moc
www.behindthetoys.com
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phidias_barrios
Reged: 12/14/05
Loc: los angeles
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Hey Wayne. Yeah, that's the IG-88 I had. I had pics of the back where you can see that the COO was sanded or dremmeled off, either it was sanded off that piece itself or off the production figure it was casted from. Either way, it was a fake. The pictures were on my old laptop though and I can't pull them up right now.
I'm pretty sure ChrisG still has the pics though if he wants to post them here.
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JohnA
Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Talk about a smoking gun. I guess that blows the stories about bad Kenner sources out of the water. Great work, Chris, and thanx, Mattias, for the great pics.
I sure wish Scott would comment. I'd REALLY like to hear what he has to say about this.
John
--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character
-Shai Hulud
Edited by JohnA (10/18/10 08:42 AM)
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Bobafettguy
Reged: 12/19/05
Loc: CA.
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Wow, nice work Chris. There's no putting the cat back in the bag.
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Marty - yub yub
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bowspearer
Reged: 05/29/10
Loc: Central Coast, Australia
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Jordan,
I think you've done almost the best you can in a bad situation if you still have relevant contact information.
I NEARLY got caught up in this, but was fortunate that the M.A.S.K. protos I bought from Baldylox had nothing to do with Scott. That said, considering how nervously I waited to hear back from Baldylox after PMing him about my protos, I can understand how you and everyone else must feel.
And that's ultimately the thing. I really think this has gone beyond the point of quietly trying to get refunds- this guy has committed a criminal act and it's time for the authorities to step in.
I think the one other thing you can do already is pass on Scott's current residential address to anyone stung by him so that they can take the matter to the police and have him charged.
There are enough authorities here who could testify about the authenticity of pieces for legal purposes, and really, this is where things need to head. Furthermore, it's about the only chance people have of getting some kind of compensation for what has happened.
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Mattias_Rendahl
Reged: 09/07/04
Loc: S W E D E N
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Smoking gun indeed. Great work, Chris! The evidence shown lately is staggering, very promising...
Mattias
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Looking for all kind of prototypes, especially for Luke Farmboy, Leia Hoth, Dengar and Endor related characters
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JohnA
Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
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bowspearer wrote:
That said, considering how nervously I waited to hear back from Baldylox after PMing him about my protos, I can understand how you and everyone else must feel.
To be fair, you should have asked Billy the history BEFORE the purchase. The problem with Scott is that he is known to have Kenner contacts. I know people that have had dinner with him and Kenner guys and actually made purchases. Many times people with direct Kenner contacts won't give up names. So, when I asked for names it was frustrating but not surprising he wouldn't share. I even offered names that certain pieces might have come from and he still wouldn't share. However, most times a paper trail will lead back to Jordan, TomD, EddieA, TheEarth, TomN, or SteveD. There aren't many other places it should lead. There are a handful of random guys like SteveY, and 2 or 3 guys here that have made direct deals but 90%+ should lead back to those few names. A year ago I would have included Scott's name but it seems that was all smoke and mirrors now. For ANYBODY starting in prototypes you should ALWAYS ask for a paper trail.
John
--------------------
and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character
-Shai Hulud
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baldylox
Reged: 05/26/01
Loc: Charleston, SC USA
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JohnA wrote:
bowspearer wrote:
That said, considering how nervously I waited to hear back from Baldylox after PMing him about my protos, I can understand how you and everyone else must feel.
To be fair, you should have asked Billy the history BEFORE the purchase. The problem with Scott is that he is known to have Kenner contacts. I know people that have had dinner with him and Kenner guys and actually made purchases. Many times people with direct Kenner contacts won't give up names. So, when I asked for names it was frustrating but not surprising he wouldn't share. I even offered names that certain pieces might have come from and he still wouldn't share. However, most times a paper trail will lead back to Jordan, TomD, EddieA, TheEarth, TomN, or SteveD. There aren't many other places it should lead. There are a handful of random guys like SteveY, and 2 or 3 guys here that have made direct deals but 90%+ should lead back to those few names. A year ago I would have included Scott's name but it seems that was all smoke and mirrors now. For ANYBODY starting in prototypes you should ALWAYS ask for a paper trail.
John
I also think that I should have been asked about those MASK protos in a PM instead of bringing them up in this thread. I know "bowspearer" was only trying to get info about their source but it would have been nicer to ask me in private instead of asking people in this thread that had nothing to do with the sale.
I'm not upset about it really, I'm just pointing out that I would not have done it that way had I been in "bowspearers" shoes.
Like John said, paper trails are key with protos and the like but in Scotts case, nobody questioned it due to past dealings and his known sources. It totally sucks that he decided to do something like this and I can't fathom pulling something like that myself. Even if I had the talent to do so, I know I wouldn't be able to sleep at night having screwed over so many previous friends and contacts.
Billy
--------------------
2008 winner of the "Best Supporting Awesomeness" Award. And rightly so.
John A's fave link ever.... http://history.cookiethievery.com/041204/
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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WThompson wrote:
Here is the black IG-88 Hardcopy that was mentioned earlier. I didn't buy this one. ( Although I would like a Genuine one )
I didn't need this figure in person to know it was bad. Phidias sent me some great high-res images and the answer was clear. This piece had most definitely been made from a production figure.
The other images are even more telling. I think the first alarm that went off for me was when I looked at the bellows on the arm and saw that they were dented. You can easily dent a production figure like that with your fingernail. This piece struck out right here, but there was more.
The mark in the head is where the knit line from the injection molding process was copied right to the hardcopy piece. The knit line is where molten plastic comes together in a mold. That was clearly a sign that it had been made from a production figure. Another strike.
Yet another strike was when I looked at the foot and saw how the mis-match of the foot feature. That's because the production mold halves are machined separately, but another reason could be that two different halves were mixed up by the factory. They were close, but not perfect. Either way, as you can imagine, this feature should be the same size across the foot.
The photo above shows where the feature in the middle of the back was accidentally ground down as the dates were being sanded off of the sacrificial figure in order to copy it. Notice also the actual area where the text used to be and it looks sanded since it's more matte and has horizontal sanding marks.
Something else you can see just from looking at the overall, low-res shot posted by Wayne is that the legs are bent. Production IG-88 legs are often bent because they're thin and don't cool evenly during manufacturing. However, a legitimate hardcopy would have absolutely straight legs as well as having absolutely clean and straight features overall.
Fail.
-chris
--------------------
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
Edited by ChrisGeorgoulias (10/18/10 11:07 PM)
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WThompson
Reged: 01/09/04
Loc: Ontario,Canada
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Great stuff Chris, SCI for Star Wars Prototypes.
Surely there is a few more examples of pics for other fakes but these help to really show what can occur ( sanding, grinding marks, lousy paint job) when someone tries to make a copy and pass it off as genuine.
--------------------
IG-88,Zuckuss,4-LOM and Imperial Commander Protoypes, Lili Ledy Moc
www.behindthetoys.com
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Bantha5
Reged: 11/05/00
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Wow, I'm still surprised that this went on for so long with fakes that look this bad. I'm just wondering if scott put more effort into his early fakes then just got greedy and sloppy. I'm surprised someone who had knowledge and access to real protos made such poor fakes.
Is there an estimated timeline of what fakes came from him when?
Also John, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for him to reply. I'm sure he is laying low and scared Sh@tless at this point. Ryan
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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That IG-88 is by far the worst I've seen yet. My goodness...
Just wait until someone actually makes some decent-looking fakes. Caveat emptor.
--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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phidias_barrios
Reged: 12/14/05
Loc: los angeles
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ronsalvatore wrote:
That IG-88 is by far the worst I've seen yet. My goodness...
I guess you haven't seen pics of the fake Bib Fortuna yet Ron. I felt pretty stupid when Chris pointed out the filled-in peg hole underneath one of Bib's feet. In my defense, it was actually pretty hard to spot it, even in person. I remember I had to angle it under the light to clearly see the remnant of that peg hole.
Chris, if you still have the Bib pics, feel free to post them. I'll promise to back up my pics next time.
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bowspearer
Reged: 05/29/10
Loc: Central Coast, Australia
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JohnA wrote:
For ANYBODY starting in prototypes you should ALWAYS ask for a paper trail.
John
I guess it's one of those things you're not initially aware of when you're just getting into it.
At the time though, I did check out Billy's reputation, and I saw from that he was a total straight shooter and I had nothing to worry about.
baldylox wrote:
I also think that I should have been asked about those MASK protos in a PM instead of bringing them up in this thread. I know "bowspearer" was only trying to get info about their source but it would have been nicer to ask me in private instead of asking people in this thread that had nothing to do with the sale.
I'm not upset about it really, I'm just pointing out that I would not have done it that way had I been in "bowspearers" shoes.
Like John said, paper trails are key with protos and the like but in Scotts case, nobody questioned it due to past dealings and his known sources. It totally sucks that he decided to do something like this and I can't fathom pulling something like that myself. Even if I had the talent to do so, I know I wouldn't be able to sleep at night having screwed over so many previous friends and contacts.
Billy
Billy, let me make one thing abundantly clear- at no point in this did I think you had even knowingly ripped me off. As far as I was concerned, even then, you were genuinely selling me what you believed were prototypes, so if I'd been scammed it was only because you would have been too and you were merely selling on what you had every reason to believe was the genuine article.
Fortunately Scott wasn't involved and you got back to me within a couple of days, so it wasn't like you left me hanging.
My point was more that Scott threw the entire proto industry on its head to the point where any proto by Kenner is in doubt, and that even a day's wait trying to get an answer is totally as far from fun as you can get.
Most of all though, my point was that the sooner the police are involved; the sooner justice can be served.
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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phidias_barrios wrote:
ronsalvatore wrote:
That IG-88 is by far the worst I've seen yet. My goodness...
I guess you haven't seen pics of the fake Bib Fortuna yet Ron. I felt pretty stupid when Chris pointed out the filled-in peg hole underneath one of Bib's feet. In my defense, it was actually pretty hard to spot it, even in person. I remember I had to angle it under the light to clearly see the remnant of that peg hole.
Chris, if you still have the Bib pics, feel free to post them. I'll promise to back up my pics next time.
No, I haven't seen that one yet.
It's the wonky details that get me on this one (the dented elbow, etc.). That and the bent legs that chris points out.
IG-88 is believed to have been a Bill Lemon acetate sculpt, which makes this "hardcopy" even harder to believe.
And still no word from Scott, despite his claiming a month ago that his "legal documents" were already in the mail.
--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
Edited by ronsalvatore (10/19/10 09:13 AM)
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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Bantha5 wrote:
Wow, I'm still surprised that this went on for so long with fakes that look this bad. I'm just wondering if scott put more effort into his early fakes then just got greedy and sloppy. I'm surprised someone who had knowledge and access to real protos made such poor fakes.
Is there an estimated timeline of what fakes came from him when?
Also John, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for him to reply. I'm sure he is laying low and scared [Email]Sh@tless[/Email] at this point. Ryan
I suspect whoever made these got better over time.
Also, the quality of these things is dependent on what you're using as a source. If you've got an original mold, sculpt or hardcopy, you can make really good fakes. But if you're working off a production figure, your fakes are going to be flawed.
Seriously, if someone had a hardcopy and access to some Dynacast (or a Dynacast-like substance), he could turn out nearly perfect fakes. Provided he knew a little about casting techniques, that is.
I'm not afraid to say that, because it's true, and people need to know exactly what they're dealing with.
Only goes to show how important it is to check provenance on the items you buy.
And thank heavens chris discovered that blacklight test.
--------------------
Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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baldylox
Reged: 05/26/01
Loc: Charleston, SC USA
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bowspearer wrote:
JohnA wrote:
For ANYBODY starting in prototypes you should ALWAYS ask for a paper trail.
John
I guess it's one of those things you're not initially aware of when you're just getting into it.
At the time though, I did check out Billy's reputation, and I saw from that he was a total straight shooter and I had nothing to worry about.
baldylox wrote:
I also think that I should have been asked about those MASK protos in a PM instead of bringing them up in this thread. I know "bowspearer" was only trying to get info about their source but it would have been nicer to ask me in private instead of asking people in this thread that had nothing to do with the sale.
I'm not upset about it really, I'm just pointing out that I would not have done it that way had I been in "bowspearers" shoes.
Like John said, paper trails are key with protos and the like but in Scotts case, nobody questioned it due to past dealings and his known sources. It totally sucks that he decided to do something like this and I can't fathom pulling something like that myself. Even if I had the talent to do so, I know I wouldn't be able to sleep at night having screwed over so many previous friends and contacts.
Billy
Billy, let me make one thing abundantly clear- at no point in this did I think you had even knowingly ripped me off. As far as I was concerned, even then, you were genuinely selling me what you believed were prototypes, so if I'd been scammed it was only because you would have been too and you were merely selling on what you had every reason to believe was the genuine article.
Fortunately Scott wasn't involved and you got back to me within a couple of days, so it wasn't like you left me hanging.
My point was more that Scott threw the entire proto industry on its head to the point where any proto by Kenner is in doubt, and that even a day's wait trying to get an answer is totally as far from fun as you can get.
Most of all though, my point was that the sooner the police are involved; the sooner justice can be served.
I didn't think you were trying to say I was involved in anything either. That didn't even enter my mind. I just thought it would have been nicer to send me the PM and wait for my reply. I understand you being a bit on edge about waiting for a reply tho and I don't hold that against you.
These events have definitely shaken up a lot of people and how they look at things so I totally see why people are now asking more questions and getting information flowing better.
I also had 2 other people PM me asking about other Bossk related items I sold them but both those were completely "Scott Free". But they PM'd me first instead of asking here. I just figured it's common courtesy to ask questions like this to the seller in private first and then if you have issues or no responses from them, ask here or out the problem in the forum.
Like I said, I'm not really upset about it, I just wanted you to understand my view on it, that's all. We're good so no worries!
Billy
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2008 winner of the "Best Supporting Awesomeness" Award. And rightly so.
John A's fave link ever.... http://history.cookiethievery.com/041204/
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JohnA
Reged: 02/21/01
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Billy,
Check your PMs.
John
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and time will be, the catalyst to weed out the weak
and beget strength-of character
-Shai Hulud
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Justin_Vidal
Reged: 09/22/05
Loc: N. California
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Woah! I spent several hours reading through this all last night, I must say, this is horrible for all involved. I can only imagine the feelings of betrayal
I have always stayed away from these kinds of prototypes, because I knew how much I didn't understand about them, it's a bit disheartening to see even the experienced among us getting taken.
I had not really thought about it, but I (along with almost everyone it seems) had just accepted that there were more of these floating around than the research supported. I had read for years about how few there were in circulation, but also just assumed that the ones I saw popping up in collections were simply coming from black hole collections, or from collectors with good connections. I had just assumed that new finds, or older collectors getting out of the hobby had increased the numbers in circulation, and invalidated the old numbers somehow.
Just goes to show you how assuming about anything like this will bite you. Definitely a learning experience for everyone. And regarding learning, I for one would like to REALLY THANK everyone for bringing this to light. I'm sure it was somewhat embarrassing to do so, as admitting that someone got the better of you is never fun, but this simply shows how wonderful this community really is.
Even at a very low point personally for them in the hobby, the more knowledgeable members among us are looking out for the integrity of the hobby as a whole. I think that's one of the best lessons to come out of this!
You can say all you want about "the inner circle," if something like this doesn't disprove it, I dunno what would.
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Looking for vintage store displays, Kenner, or otherwise. Let me know what you've got!
Also after SW/ESB/POTF w/coin offer sticker, MOC or not.
"Here's a spoiler........you will die alone!"
Triumph
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Bantha5
Reged: 11/05/00
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ronsalvatore wrote:
Bantha5 wrote:
Wow, I'm still surprised that this went on for so long with fakes that look this bad. I'm just wondering if scott put more effort into his early fakes then just got greedy and sloppy. I'm surprised someone who had knowledge and access to real protos made such poor fakes.
Is there an estimated timeline of what fakes came from him when?
Also John, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for him to reply. I'm sure he is laying low and scared [Email]Sh@tless[/Email] at this point. Ryan
I suspect whoever made these got better over time.
Also, the quality of these things is dependent on what you're using as a source. If you've got an original mold, sculpt or hardcopy, you can make really good fakes. But if you're working off a production figure, your fakes are going to be flawed.
Seriously, if someone had a hardcopy and access to some Dynacast (or a Dynacast-like substance), he could turn out nearly perfect fakes. Provided he knew a little about casting techniques, that is.
I'm not afraid to say that, because it's true, and people need to know exactly what they're dealing with.
Only goes to show how important it is to check provenance on the items you buy.
And thank heavens chris discovered that blacklight test.
Ron, You are correct, Making a fake from a genuine hardcopy, would be quite easy. I'm sure that is where he started. My guess is he then realized that if he could pass those and there were plenty buyers, why not move onto other figures.
My question is why did he do the ones based on production so poorly. He knew how to enlarge the figure, why didn't he go to the extra step of cleaning up the details and remove parting lines (That off-meter line on IG's leg kills me) Just wondering if the greed got the better of him and made him throw caution to the wind. Ryan
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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Bantha5 wrote:
ronsalvatore wrote:
Bantha5 wrote:
Wow, I'm still surprised that this went on for so long with fakes that look this bad. I'm just wondering if scott put more effort into his early fakes then just got greedy and sloppy. I'm surprised someone who had knowledge and access to real protos made such poor fakes.
Is there an estimated timeline of what fakes came from him when?
Also John, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for him to reply. I'm sure he is laying low and scared [Email]Sh@tless[/Email] at this point. Ryan
I suspect whoever made these got better over time.
Also, the quality of these things is dependent on what you're using as a source. If you've got an original mold, sculpt or hardcopy, you can make really good fakes. But if you're working off a production figure, your fakes are going to be flawed.
Seriously, if someone had a hardcopy and access to some Dynacast (or a Dynacast-like substance), he could turn out nearly perfect fakes. Provided he knew a little about casting techniques, that is.
I'm not afraid to say that, because it's true, and people need to know exactly what they're dealing with.
Only goes to show how important it is to check provenance on the items you buy.
And thank heavens chris discovered that blacklight test.
Ron, You are correct, Making a fake from a genuine hardcopy, would be quite easy. I'm sure that is where he started. My guess is he then realized that if he could pass those and there were plenty buyers, why not move onto other figures.
My question is why did he do the ones based on production so poorly. He knew how to enlarge the figure, why didn't he go to the extra step of cleaning up the details and remove parting lines (That off-meter line on IG's leg kills me) Just wondering if the greed got the better of him and made him throw caution to the wind. Ryan
He was selling them left and right, so obviously the lack of attention to detail wasn't limited to the forger. People throughout the hobby failed to pick up on the fairly obvious problems. (Though it's worth remembering that some of these look much better than others.)
Just look at that Ewok Mattias had. You can plainly see that someone went through the trouble of fixing the broken ear on the legit HC, probably by sculpting a replacement directly onto the HC using clay (later removed).
But it's an obviously shoddy job. You can see the line separating the repair from the existing piece! That kind of thing is just half-a'd. A forger worth his salt would have masked that more convincingly. It's not like it's hard to smooth the clay flush with the Dynacast. And I don't even know what to make of that IG-88. Dents in the details? Areas that have been mistakenly sanded off? You'd think whoever was making these would have recognized those things as problems.
Like I said at the beginning of the thread, this whole situation has really served to underscore the hobby's lack of knowledge and experience regarding hardcopies...which is understandable, as legit ones are really pretty rare.
Looking at all this stuff now, it's obvious that it was only a matter of time before the whole thing came crashing down. But the secrecy tactic worked really well for a time, and many people simply failed to question what they were buying.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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Bill_McBride
Reged: 05/01/01
Loc: Washington DC
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bowspearer wrote:
I guess it's one of those things you're not initially aware of when you're just getting into it.
In a nutshell, this is the most troubling thing to hear from another collector. To even *consider* getting into these types of items, and *not* asking questions is beyond my comprehension. The idea, at the very least, is to learn something about what you are buying/collecting. If you aren't asking questions, then what's the point ?
Quote:
My point was more that Scott threw the entire proto industry on its head to the point where any proto by Kenner is in doubt, and that even a day's wait trying to get an answer is totally as far from fun as you can get.
I disagree. Who(m)ever is responsible is simply a very large, rotten apple that has to be dealt with. Statistically speaking, these pieces are a small percentage of the total "population", and if you didn't have as many knowledgeable people stepping in to help with the situation, everyone would really be up the creek.
Some of us have been around for long enough to pick these pieces apart. I think in the end, everyone is getting a crash course in HC's at the very least.
I do agree that this is (for the lack of a better term), emotionally and financially gutting for a lot of people, and many of them are people I know personally.
I think that's the reason that so many collectors who aren't involved are doing what they can to help.
Bill
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Buying Rare and Unusual Darth Vader Items; Vintage and New
Check out The Darth Vader Toy Museum at: www.sithtoys.com
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Bill_McBride
Reged: 05/01/01
Loc: Washington DC
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Chris and Ron have mentioned the size difference between a HC, and a production figure. This is an extreme example, but I think it's safe to say this is what should be going through your mind when/if you are comparing pieces:
This is a side-by-side (literally) shot of a modern HC and test shot figure. (No optical illusions, the HC is really that scale). Obviously, for a 4" figure the difference will be less pronounced, but this is some idea of how it should appear.
Bill
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Buying Rare and Unusual Darth Vader Items; Vintage and New
Check out The Darth Vader Toy Museum at: www.sithtoys.com
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wooten
Reged: 09/13/00
Loc: Galloway, OH
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bowspearer wrote:
My point was more that Scott threw the entire proto industry on its head to the point where any proto by Kenner is in doubt, and that even a day's wait trying to get an answer is totally as far from fun as you can get.
This seems like an overreaction.
These particular fakes were good enough to fool a certain level of competence, but as we've seen with Chris G's posts, even good fakes are incredibly bad looking to the expert.
If this whole thing has stood anything on it's head its:
1. Who the true hardcopy experts really are. Chris G, Derby and Ron S. There are others, including myself, but frankly, however much i think I know, I would defer to these guys every time. I would suspect any other respected name would do the same, especially now.
2. We need to keep better records on our stuff, and demand the same from folks we buy from. A lot of collectors have become lazy over the years, either not keeping good records or simply not asking enough questions.
Legitimate pieces are easily verified, and there are still plenty of legitimate things out there with no ties to this shyster. Fakes have existed for some time (blue harvest) although people finally gave up trying to sell them as real. It's all about what you know and what information is available to you. If you do your homework, you should be able to be relatively competent at spotting fakes. The problem lies in that there can be a certain comfort level reached along with this competence and people begin to kind of believe themselves to be experts and they stop asking outside opinions or communicating about things they pick up. However much you learn online, it never hurts to have a piece, or even just a story, authenticated by someone else.
It's an expensive lesson to learn, for sure, but I think this kind of thing solidifies the hobby in the long run. Sure, it's scary knowing there are better fakes floating around, but in the end, the lesson has been learned and the entire knowledge level of the prototype collecting community has been raised. Pieces will be discussed, documented and you can bet that anything sold or traded from now on will be well vetted compared to previous. You can kind of liken this to any traumatic event. Once something bad happens, you are immediately on alert from that point forward. That's a good thing!
-John
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John Wooten
http://www.oswcc.com
http://www.theswca.com
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WThompson
Reged: 01/09/04
Loc: Ontario,Canada
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Hi Guys,
Working on this post all morning at work on and off is a real challenge.........
I think it's fair to say there is a lot of interaction between most of us that commonly post on the board and pieces (hardcopy etc) change hands often enough to keep the hobby fun and interesting. After all that is what a hobby should be for, not to take advantage of people with hard earned money.
Wanted to share a couple of things and could be helpful for later on, it goes to show that some level of privacy or respect even has a fine line. I am quite sure I was told also to keep pics to myself for the IG-88 piece but some sort of vibe told me something different and below is a small example of an early investigation on the IG-88 figure. To compare notes it is probably fair to say when asking for feedback about the IG-88 Repro10 others already knew about it as one key thing that turned me off as a red flag -- the price kept going up!
Here is a slightly revised request and response for one of the couple of sources I checked, one of them already posted here and I highly recommend it. A little faith and trust for some authentication can go a long way.
Here is the email I sent out back in 08, I know some of the guys burned by this IG-88 has seen this email recently as this news came up.
Email :
Confidential Advice or Opinion on Hardcopy
01/25/08
Hi .....
I can use your help on this one, i'm looking making some sort of deal for this one and I want to make sure it's fine to even pursue for my collection. I've got some parts to trade but other then that I am Hardcopy less until I get something in the future and I sure would like to get back some pieces I sold 2 years ago like my Bald Emperor:)
Anyway, here is the description if you have any clue as to who this pic and phase belongs to can you keep it to yourself as I just wanted a second opinion on it as I can't see the holes and such or know what to look for with this older black Repo 10? material.
See below:
W:)
Phrase by seller:
"This pices was part of my extras box that I bought about 9 years ago. Everything drilled but holes in legs do not match torso. Can be held together with the putty"
Response from one source of feedback:
It's hard to say for sure when just looking at a photo of a HC. It doesn't look whack or anything. We have seen a few ESB figures made of the black material. However, I do remember that those really didn't have holes drilled in them. They were unfinished basically and of overall lower quality than most HC's I've seen unless it was a really crappy casting done in carbalon.
The best thing you can do is to try to get some comparison shots with a production figure and make sure that it's scaled slightly larger than the production figure.
With IG-88 I'd think that the hands would be broken. Or at least one finger. It'd be better to get a photo with the limbs flipped so that you could see the holes or at least the joint areas.
Quite sure after this I didn't get the extra photos and due the price increases and the pressure of other collectors buying this piece, I walked away thinking one day it may filer back to me.
Another point is the timeline for this stuff, may have been noted earlier.Not too sure if it takes this into another direction but it may be worth nailing down some sort of timeline for the sale of these items, I do recall seeing posts about Hardcopy heads and such on some sort of excel file posted by this seller and that could have been one of the early points that sparked interest in what he had for sale.
Not to confuse anyone with this at all and do apologize if it does, but while looking through some emails this morning I noticed certain dates and timelines and had an interesting thought that while this problem started to roll out alot of people could have been distracted enough by the other problem going on at that time which was the Palioty Pre-Production fake Fiasco. My emails date that problem around (2/08/08) so it's possible while that thread took off some people still relied on a good word and bought these hardcopy pieces only to find out later they were also suspect. As mentioned before it's always good to check sources as much as possilbe if you don't know the contact or have a vibe about it.
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IG-88,Zuckuss,4-LOM and Imperial Commander Protoypes, Lili Ledy Moc
www.behindthetoys.com
Edited by WThompson (10/20/10 12:35 PM)
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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Well, I notice my advice quote above in red. I guess what can be gleaned from that is you can never assume anything thesedays. The photos I got initially weren't enough for me to even say it couldn't be suspect. In retrospect that original photo is so bad you can't make anything out on it and certainly shouldn't be used to determine whether to buy or not.
And as far as "poor quality" on originals goes, that's a learned thing and not easily taught. A sub-standard original still looks way better than these copies from production figures that I've looked at recently.
Though I suspect that people will be more diligent in the future. Kudos to Wayne for even asking for advice in the first place on that thing.
John has a good point about keeping records as well. Being able to trace a piece as it goes from collector to collector is very important. I've been astonished at the number of times pieces are traded around because some of the pieces have had 3-5 previous owners! That's a lot of movement and each time it moves, the previous history could be lost.
I always note the source and the month/year when I get a piece. And on the small chance it was from another collector and not directly from a Kenner source I still note the history as far back as possible.
collector B\collector A\Kenner name
But you can only ask so many questions in regards to the original source because at some point you likely won't get an actual name. And so many names are known now and being tossed around that it's fairly useless unless you are getting it from someone you trust. At that point it's important to look at the item for what it is. The pieces I've looked at which originated from Scott had different Kenner names or dealers associated with them, but that was made up. Having the source is just one part of it, but the biggest thing here is just to ask people who have more experience in these things. Not a lot has actually turned up fresh so things cycle around and are remembered from specific finds. Sometimes old photos exist or lists people got in emails several years back. It all plays into it.
Then you bust out your magnifying glass and light and think about how figures and prototypes are made and what it should look like. Then you can begin to tell if something is what it is, but even then it can be difficult. Often I rely on a mix of all sorts of information when I look at a piece when I make a determination on its legitimacy.
-chris
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The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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ChrisGeorgoulias wrote:
And as far as "poor quality" on originals goes, that's a learned thing and not easily taught. A sub-standard original still looks way better than these copies from production figures that I've looked at recently.
This point has been made a couple of times, but it's worth restating.
Vintage hardcopies often have damage or casting flaws. But they always have a high level of detail. Dents in details, wonky grooves that don't match up over parting lines, details that look bloated and vague compared even to a production figure. These things just do not turn up on legit pieces -- or very rarely at any rate.
Again, check out the Bossk I have on the Archive. I included a close-up of the feet, just to demonstrate how good the detail on it looks. And that's a hardcopy that has clear casting flaws.
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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ronsalvatore
Reged: 09/01/00
Loc: New York
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http://tiny.cc/xxxu9
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Ron Salvatore (rsalvatore11@hvc.rr.com)
The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
NAGAMAROO!
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Rebojazz
Reged: 06/08/06
Loc: Wheeling, WV
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Interesting read, Ron. And, interesting comments afterward.
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Steven A. Weimer,
JediconWV Co-Organizer
www.jediconwv.net
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Bill_McBride
Reged: 05/01/01
Loc: Washington DC
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ronsalvatore wrote:
http://tiny.cc/xxxu9
That is a great read Ron. Sadly, I think the one person who really needs to read that, won't.
We have really been our own worst enemy when it comes to situations like this. We are secretive about deals and contacts for the most part because they are people who will knife you in the back to get something. Somehow, "we" need to bridge the gap, and find a way to put differences aside to regain a measure of trust so we can be more open about things like this.
"If history repeats itself, and the unexpected always happens, how incapable must Man be of learning from experience."
~ George Bernard Shaw
Bill
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Buying Rare and Unusual Darth Vader Items; Vintage and New
Check out The Darth Vader Toy Museum at: www.sithtoys.com
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kmm
Reged: 07/03/07
Loc: Chicago, IL
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Hello everyone. I have a question on the Mon Julpa head I bought at CV. Jordan believes there is a high likelihood that its fake. I live close to a Home Depot so just for my own edification I bought a black light (the flourescent kind, not a bulb). I will try to post some pictures this weekend but under the black light, it looks to me like the head is still green. Once I post the pics, maybe some of you guys can chime in. I'm beginning to wonder if either its real, unlikely, or the blacklight test isn't foolproof.
Kevin
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Always looking for vintage Lili Ledy variants.
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ChrisGeorgoulias
Reged: 11/04/00
Loc: NC
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Real Dynacast will "glow". It's not that your piece won't be green anymore, but if it's fake it will just be fairly dark. Remember that you need to look at it in a completely dark room at night or in a closet.
It helps to have a comparison piece then it's quite clear, but just looking at a photo of that Mon Julpa under normal light it looks fake to me.
-chris
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The Star Wars Collectors Archive
www.theswca.com
chris@toysrgus.com
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wooten
Reged: 09/13/00
Loc: Galloway, OH
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Chris has already shown some pictures, but to reiterate, here's a comparison of real dynacast vs fake under a black light:
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John Wooten
http://www.oswcc.com
http://www.theswca.com
Edited by wooten (10/30/10 03:12 PM)
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