bswain1
March 5 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
You know, since most every prototype collector in the marketplace knows or
will know about the Virginia Brooks incident, who does she plan to sell her
figures to?? Who would want to buy from her now? As long as we're posting
letters to the editor, here is one from a party not mentioned in any of
Virginia's e-mails (that would be me):
Editor
Winter Haven News Chief
P.O. Box 1440
Winter Haven, FL 33882
RE: Rick Kenney's Article titled "Collectors find the value of their figures
deflating due a secondary market"
Dear Editor:
I am writing to take issue with the article titled "Collectors find the value
of their figures deflating due a secondary market" printed in your February 28
edition. As a Star Wars collector knowledgeable in the prototypes market I
would like to express my opinion. This article seems to tell only one side of
the story, Ms. Brook's side. It does not appear that there was any attempt
made to contact Mr. Salvatore or The Earth to enable them to tell their side
of the story I personally am familiar with both Mr. Salvatore and The Earth,
having had contact with them either through the Internet, or various
collecting publications. First of all let me address the issue of Mr.
Salvatore's prototypes. The prototypes that he sells are merely "replicas."
They are made of a resin instead of the metal that the originals are made of.
Did you contact him to find this out? No. I have seen them offered over the
Internet, as well as been in contact with him personally regarding these
items. He has in no way ever portrayed these as anything but "replicas."
Most of his "replicas" are reproductions of prototypes that never made it to
mass production. As Star Wars fans, collectors enjoy seeing "what could have
been" in the world of Star Wars. Mr. Salvatore has simply provided a means
for collectors to enjoy these unproduced pieces.
What The Earth is selling and has sold are genuine prototypes of these
unproduced pieces mentioned above. I have come to learn that Ms. Brooks
pieces are nothing but unpainted versions of pieces that were mass produced by
the hundreds of thousands if not millions. Kenner/Hasbro may generally deny
that such prototypes ever made it outside the walls of Kenner, but then why
does Ms. Brooks have prototypes? The truth is, there are genuine prototypes
on the secondary market, I myself have some. I don't understand why your
article can simultaneously trumpet the cause of Ms. Brooks having prototypes
while at the same time saying that The Earth and everyone else must have
fakes.
I can understand Hasbro legal issuing a memorandum to Lucasfilm dealing with
the production of unlicensed pieces. The legal department has to always
"cover all the bases." If they are aware of such activity that may infringe
certain design patents or the like and do not at least address the activity
they may be acquiescing, thus opening the door to future unlicensed producers
using this precedent against them. However, I doubt they will take issue with
a collector who has produced a few "replica" prototypes. This would be
"biting the hand that feeds them." As for The Earth, I have no worries that
they could prove the authenticity of the protoypes that they have sold. There
are definitely fakes out there, but authentic prototypes exist as well.
I think it is plain to see that what lies behind all of this is Ms. Brook's
greed. The article stated that "with the help of toymaker executives and Star
Wars memorabilia collectors, she discovered that a box of figurines she bought
at a flea market 15 years ago might be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars
in the collectibles market." The key word in this statement is might. I am
not sure which "Star Wars memorabilia collectors" she contacted, but most
would know that the prototypes she has have a market value of about $5 each.
I am sure that Ms. Brooks did not do all of her homework, saw that some
unpainted prototypes sell for $400-$600 (from unproduced sets, of course), and
thought she had found her pot o' gold. While, at the same time, she did not
realize the difference between prototypes of unproduced figures and prototypes
of mass-produced figures.
I personally think that the article on this subject was very misinformed, and
nothing but a portion of a witch hunt on Ms. Brook's part in an attempt to
enhance the value of her "find." I would hope that next time Mr. Kenney would
make an honest attempt to "get the whole story" by contacting any interested
parties (Mr. Salvatore, The Earth) before writing the article. In my opinion
the reputations of these parties have been damaged as a result of this
article. In regards to Mr. Kenney, do your homework next time before taking
up the cause of someone looking to make hundreds of thousands of dollars off
of a group of people doing nothing but enjoying a hobby. I think a
retraction, more informed article or the like would be appropriate in this
situation.
Regards,
Brennan C. Swain
CC:
Rick Kenney
Associated Press
Howard Roffman, Lucasfilm, Ltd.
James M. Kipling, Hasbro, Inc.
stuntboy
March 5 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
> As I said, I've bought Micro stuff direct from former employees who have
> sold to the Earth. Really, if someone wanted to find stuff in Cincinatti,
> with a little hunting they could do so. Its not like the Earth is
> magically pulling this stuff out of their arses. Its easy to see where
> its coming from
it's not like they have a ton of this stuff either. it comes in spurts and
has slowly dwindled these 4 years or so that they have been doing it.
ron's right, there is still much to be found in cincinnati. we saw stuff back
in december that would knock your socks off and most of it was in the hands of
the original owners and not part of some middleman's stash. and all of it was
for sale. but don't even ask... :^) i'm only telling this because of the
situation we're in with this virgina brooks think.
> >The most concrete
> >allegations are definitely against them. Hopefully they'll have something
> >to say about it soon
the earth is choosing not to respond. i've talked with them numerous times
over the past week and everyone is well aware of what is going on. they are
very concerned about their reputation and this is the only time that it has
come into "question". though look at the person's background who is doing the
questioning. did virginia ever mention that the earth was selling the very
figures she has for only a few dollars each? wouldn't it seem that if they
were into ripping people off that they would be holding these things in high
regard and charging a ton for them???
> >I still see absolutely no connection between this
> >issue and Virginia's figures, basically because her stuff is not even the
> >same items the Earth is selling, repros or not.
> She thinks that the unproduced figures draw attention away from the regular
> stuff and, thus, keep the prices low.
that's the bottom line.
> There's a bunch more I wanted to say, but I'm tired of this.
i'll add some more....
what we need to make sure and do it not to hound virginia for her proof
because i believe she does have proof that certain items went out for
production from a certain vendor and what the 6-digit codes mean. however
anybody with half a brain knows that the first 3 digits correspond to the
playset and the last 3 correspond to the specific figure.
what virginia apparently has is documentation that *only* supports production
and that's the key. she thinks that because the documentation doesn't show
that anything unproduced was made (at all) then it's all fake. the figures
for the bacta chamber set were indeed sculpted and made into metal (and also
painted versions). the torture chamber set was the same although offhand i
don't recall if i have ever seen painted versions. figures for the endor set,
the jabba palace, the emperors throne room, the jabba dungeon and the dagobah
set were also sculpted. in fact, the dagobah set and the dungeon even made it
to the mock-up stage. i don't think these figures ever got past the hardcopy
stage (if they did get that far), but they did make it through design and
sculpting.
we told virginia time and again, that we had contact with ex-employees
(i.e. more than one person) that were not just people sweeping floors. has
virginia ever met and shaken hands with her kenner contact/source? nope.
have we? yep. many of the items i have mentioned here have been in print for
years and some of them belong in private collections and are in the archive
for everyone to see. some of them have not shown up in print because the
owners don't wish them to be. they exist though. in fact, we'll be seeing
the jabba dungeon set in the upcoming hardback edition of the tomart price
guide.
virginia cannot prove these other items were not made to some degree. the
photos we have on the web can prove that. her proof can only show that the
items that went into production were contracted to some vendor for manufacture
and that's just not enough. you can't disprove something that exists because
your proof doesn't include it. at best,the info is incomplete.
it still wouldn't mean that her stuff was worthwhile anyway. heck, people
were shunning the unpainted micros long before anybody was even turning up
these unproduced ones.
the bottom line is that virginia just doesn't know enough about collecting and
prototypes to be making accuasations. just the fact that she had to call
sansweet and kenner just to find out what she had should tell you that.
folks, she just has no case. there are no "sides" to this issue at all. you
can either believe we landed people on the moon or you can believe it was all
faked on a hollywood sound stage. it's the very same situation. i mean how
much more can we quantify this?
-chris
Michael Mierzwa
March 5 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
Eric Sansoni wrote:
>"...except if it's from the Earth, cuz all their stuff is good."
Eric, that statement is unfair. I've not ever heard anybody say that
and IMO it hurts your arguement just like the Kenner Bashers do when
they claim "Don't every say anything at all bad about Kenner because
Kenner is God".
> Can we trust the Earth? Better yet, can we trust the people whoever they
> are who supply the Earth with this authentic product?
Can we trust them? Well, I wouldn't every buy a prototype from them
while there are a few people I would buy one from. So I don't trust
them. But right now I trust them "a hell of a lot more" than Ms.
Brooks. [Emphasis added to so that I do trust the Earth more than her.]
And you are right, it isn't the Earth, but their suppliers.
The simple fact about prototypes, is that you have to REALLY know your
stuff if you want to getting into this aspect of the hobby. I don't
know a fraction of what many other collectors know, but I don't consider
myself totally ignorant. None-the-less, there are only a very small
handful of people who I would trust enough to buy a prototype ... if I
should even want one (which I don't).
> The most concrete
> allegations are definitely against them. Hopefully they'll have something
> to say about it soon. I still see absolutely no connection between this
> issue and Virginia's figures, basically because her stuff is not even the
> same items the Earth is selling, repros or not. It's like, fakes of Yak
> Face or Gargan are not going to affect the value of Luke Jedi and Leia
> Boussh no matter how you slice it.
I didn't know what she was selling and what the Earth has offered. My
only business transaction with them was for a load of vintage and POTF2
figure stands ... and I was very pleased with the Earth. So much so
that for the past several months, anytime anybody requests info on
figure stands I have recommended them (its in dejanews).
But your point is a good one. Fake figures aren't going to have a
direct impact on other figures (real, fake, prototype) of other
characters. And the indirect effects are the same as the competition
that other SW products like Galoob's stuff offer anyway! :)
Michael Mierzwa
Salfamily
March 6 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
>i'll add some more....
I knew I was asking for trouble :^)
Great post, chris. And to think there's even *more* to blabber about this issue
:^).....
>what we need to make sure and do it not to hound virginia for her proof
>because i believe she does have proof that certain items went out for
>production from a certain vendor and what the 6-digit codes
I think you're right, and I don't think its a heck of a big deal that something
is *not* on that list. The Bacta/Torture Chamber figures are a special case and
shouldn't be seen in the same light as the rest of the Micro figures. Not only
were they created at a later time and for a different year's series of
playsets, they were created in *much* fewer numbers. The Bacta/Torture Chamber
figures were likely created for packaging photography, Toy Fair, product sheets
for retailers, catalog photography, etc.
In short, I don't think its weird that VJB's "proof" lists only the stuff that
went into full-scale production. And it is key here that you differentiate
"production," as in the creation, in any sense (proto or otherwise), of Micro
figures, and "production," meaning the creation of the toys you bought in
stores. Its the world of difference between those two terms that prototype
collectors take interest in, as well as what makes the Bacta/Torture chamber
figures valuable. They just aren't the same, folks.
>mean. however
>anybody with half a brain knows that the first 3 digits correspond to the
>playset and the last 3 correspond to the specific figure.
check out the list on Paul Levesque's page. I think I might have messed up a
couple of numbers, but it'll give you a good idea of what they refer to. I
don't have the info handy, but both the Torture and Bacta sets of figures have
their own 3 digit codes, just as the regular production sets do. A collector
named Rob Amantea, who I think is probably the only guy around with a complete
set of 10 Bacta and Torture figures, actually researched these figures'
existence using those numbers. He knew there were others out there because
there were numbers missing in the series of the ones he had (the second 3 digit
string, following the first which corresponds to the playset). I think this is
how he realized there were Bespin Guards created that he didn't have.
>what virginia apparently has is documentation that *only* supports production
>and that's the key. she thinks that because the documentation doesn't show
>that anything unproduced was made (at all) then it's all fake. the figures
>for the bacta chamber set were indeed sculpted and made into metal (and also
this "made into metal" part is a real sticking point. You really have to think
about the production process; about how the figures are sculpted, cast by hand
in urethane, and then pantographed into molds in the 1:1 scale. The
Bacta/Torture figures are of a very high quality (just like the regular
figures) and were very surely "shot" in molten metal. The detail is indicative
of this, as is the "flashing" (thin skins of metal that occur between the mold
seems) seen on some of figures, and the tell-tale sign of ejector-pin marks. A
process like this is *not* something I or anyone else could do in their
basement, as it would be *very* expensive. A key part of VJB's conspiracy was
that this wasn't true; that all the B/T figures we showed her were poured into
hand-made molds. Uh-uh. The evidence doesn't show that. So who's making them?
Who's gone through *all* that effort? She hasn't answered that, and I have a
feeling her paperwork won't either.
Problems come into the equation here when you start getting into the
poured-by-hand, shot-by-machine distinction, and I have to say I can't blame
Virginia, or whoever she's spoken to at Kenner, for getting confused. There
were also conceptual figures made, by Kenner sculptors, sculptors from outside
firms working under contract for Kenner, and, quite possibly, entirely by
outside firms. Ral Partha, we know, did alot of work for Kenner, in a capacity
that was not limited to the Micro Collection. Since their metal casting process
was quick, cheap and of a high quality, they were asked to prototype certain
things on short-order. We believe (more or less *know*) they (or some people
who worked for them) were called in to help concept the Micro Collection, and
both the confirmation of other people working at Kenner during that time, as
well as the existence of several conceptual sculpts that have long been
attributed to them, attest to this theory.
Dagobah figures are included in this group, as well as some Hoth figures, which
included the Wampa. Its a little harder to prove the validity of these pieces,
but a) they came from Kenner sources, b) they correspond closely either to
produced sets or sets that we know were concepted, and c) they've been
remembered by numerous folks who worked closely on the line. Could they have
conceivably been made in someone's basement? Yeah. Is there any evidence of
that? On the contrary, there's evidence they came out of Kenner. The mere fact
that only a couple examples of those Dagobah conceptual pieces have turned up
for each figure should persuade you that noone went through the trouble of
making them for profit.
Now, these figures would have been sculpted in 1:1 scale, in either A/B putty
or the standard wax. A mold would then be hand-poured at that scale, and the
figures would, in this case, be *poured* in either lead or a urethane. There
would be no numbers, no "LFL," no ejector pin marks, no flashing, and a lower
degree of detail. In the Lou/Tim messages, it became apparent that VJB couldn't
differentiate, between the *production-quality* Bacta/Torture figures and the
*hand made* conceptual pieces, and that is a really a major, major distinction
one has to make if he/she wants to understand what is going on.
I believe most of the "uh-uh, no way" reaction she reported as coming from
Kenner management people regarding the unproduced micro stuff came from
reactions to these hand made pieces. And that's understandable-- they *look*
hand made because they *are* handmade. Personally, I think whoever she showed
these conceptual pieces to equated them to the Heritage figures of awhile back,
which were also done in a Micro scale, were also made of metal, and also
roughly-sculpted. As the story goes, Kenner took legal action against Heritage
for the creation of these figures, and forced them to be taken off the market.
Lou and Tim repeated this story to us verbatim, claiming it came from a Kenner
source, but mapped it onto the Ral Partha conceptual stuff.
Confused yet? Bored yet? :^)
>painted versions). the torture chamber set was the same although offhand i
>don't recall if i have ever seen painted versions. figures for the
I would guess they made painted Torture figures, even if it were only for use
on the playset's box. Bagged Bacta figures have turned up (as they would have
been packaged in the boxes). Come to think of it, we saw painted Bespin Guards
in Cincy, though those might have been handpainted.
>endor set, the jabba palace, the emperors throne room, the jabba dungeon and
>the dagobah set were also sculpted. in fact, the dagobah set and the dungeon even
>made it to the mock-up stage. i don't think these figures ever got past the hardcopy
>stage (if they did get that far), but they did make it through design and
>sculpting.
The Gamorrean Guard is the only figure from these sets that I can recall seeing
in genuine '80s (green) hardcopy form. Of course, I've seen blue Emperors, a
blue Powerdroid, etc, but those are fake 90's copies (though either the molds
or the masters used for the molds made in the 90s are geniune)....which is a
WHOLE OTHER STORY!!!
You see what we mean when we refer to "technical issues?" :^) There is just so
much that has gone on here that one has to understand and take into account.
>we told virginia time and again, that we had contact with ex-employees
>(i.e. more than one person) that were not just people sweeping floors. has
>virginia ever met and shaken hands with her kenner contact/source? nope.
She thinks that because someone's name tag says "VP" or, because they have a
management position, that they know more than the hands-on creators that have
been tapped for info on this subject. I don't want to get into it all again,
but I think you can see why that's just not true. From a management standpoint,
the only things that were "produced" were the things that were mass-produced
and sold. They don't give a squat about unproduced 4ups that were *supposed* to
be trashed (and were and then recovered :^) ), or know anything about 1:1,
rough wax sculptings that some obscure sculptor saved; and they probably never
knew because they never really cared about it and took the time to look into
it. It didn't directly pertain to their jobs.
> Nope. have we? yep. many of the items i have mentioned here have been in print
>for years and some of them belong in private collections and are in the archive
>for everyone to see. some of them have not shown up in print
Seriously--take the time to look into the Archive, at all the stuff that is
gathered there. How much effort and time do you think went into that? Now,
compare that to VJB and her paperwork, which she got after a few phone calls.
I'll leave you to decide who's "proof" you want to accept. We tried to help
her, as did Steve S., but she ignored all the info and evidence because it
contradicted with what she wanted to hear.
>because the owners don't wish them to be. they exist though. in fact, we'll
>be seeing the jabba dungeon set in the upcoming hardback edition of the tomart price
>guide.
we better warn the Tomart boys :^)
>virginia cannot prove these other items were not made to some degree. the
>photos we have on the web can prove that. her proof can only show that the
>items that went into production were contracted to some vendor for
>manufacture and that's just not enough. you can't disprove something that exists
>because your proof doesn't include it. at best,the info is incomplete.
this is the key to the whole debate. What's the easiest explanation? That our
evidence is the result of a conspiracy? Or simply that her paperwork doesn't
include what we're talking about?
>the bottom line is that virginia just doesn't know enough about collecting
>and prototypes to be making accuasations. just the fact that she had to call
>sansweet and kenner just to find out what she had should tell you that.
>folks, she just has no case. there are no "sides" to this issue at all. you
>can either believe we landed people on the moon or you can believe it was all
>faked on a hollywood sound stage. it's the very same situation. i mean how
>much more can we quantify this?
We can't. I seriously hope there isn't much of a doubt amongst you newsgroupies
stuntboy
> With respect/regard to her first note, *I* would have emailed her back
actually, they are two completely different things. the toy designer comes up
i talked with the engineers and designers at length about their jobs when we
in contrast, virginia brooks has had this kind of contact with no one. her
even johnny cochrane couldn't win virginia's "case".
chris
Michael Mierzwa
Salfamily wrote:
Yes! This is the way to the free Kenner Exclusive, isn't it? ;)
Actually this is pretty good stuff, I just need to have THIS much
Michael Mierzwa
Ed Wiser
I see you guys are very far behind on the news. My figures have
They were sold almost 4 months ago. I didn't need Gus Lopez or any of the
Kenner is also aware a lot of their new stuff is walking out the door.
V. Brooks
This is an Email that I recieved this morning for our Miss Brooks.
Well I am glad that you sold your figures. So did Kenner give them to
Again I am glad you feel you got the money you deserved for your
I would hope that this person would just leave this hobby all we need
Gus Lopez
Virginia Brooks wrote (in email to Ed Wiser):
Great. We'd love to see confirmation that you actually sold them for
>As far as 4 up hardcopies and prototypes, unless your friends have a
Not necessarily. Some prototypes were thrown away by Kenner. Some never
>I even had to get a release from Kenner before I could finalize the sale
Better yet, show us this release. I eagerly await proof that Kenner
>I know my buyer didn't go public because part of the conditions of the
I believe it's impossible that you got what you claimed these pieces were
I promise to publicly eat a proof card if you can prove you got over
>My real beef is the money people are losing for buying the unproduced
We're still awaiting some evidence that the Hoth Bacta Chamber and the
>When everyone has the opportunity to see all the documentation there is,
Great...let's see the documentation. "I'm holding a list here of 500
>As a matter of fact, there is a group of people considering a class
Great...let's hear the name of a single plaintiff from the suit. Oh no,
>It certainly had to have been worth one phone call to put the matter to
You have never presented us with documentation. Here's your big
>All their proof is what Kenner employees and ex employees have told them.
I dunno...information from several employees seems pretty solid to me. Of
>Those guys couldn't authorize anything and they certainly did not have
Let's get one thing perfectly straight. There is no such thing as "the
That's great that you found *one* engineer who worked at Kenner, but there
>They have had an investigation going on to put a stop to this and some
Investigation for *what*? I can certainly understand why Hasbro would be
But 13-20 year old prototypes?! Get real.
Of course, my take on reading that article in AP is that Kenner was
As usual, we eagerly await documentation and proof. I'm sure we'll get a
Gus
JEDl74
>>As far as I know, it's been quite time since there was anything written.<<
Check: http://www.sirstevesguide.com/ under "What's New."
Michael Mierzwa
Gus Lopez wrote:
> I promise to publicly eat a proof card if you can prove you got over
ROTFL!!!!!
If that isn't a collector laying it all down, I don't know what is! =)
Just a question, is she for real, or is she just some very borded person
Michael Mierzwa
Scottie Prince
>I believe it's impossible that you got what you claimed these pieces were
>I promise to publicly eat a proof card if you can prove you got over
Well, at least if VB's totally outrageous claims somehow turned out to be
Regards,
RACER
Doesn't anyone else think this is a "convenient" way of "getting rid of the
stuntboy
virginia jarvis brooks apparently wrote:
ahh, another piece of the puzzle is added.
> prototypes, unless your friends have a release from Kenner, then they
baloney. UTTER baloney! kenner doesn't give a crap about any of this old
> property and how they got it. As far as my figures go, I must have
the great p.t. barnum once said "there's a sucker born every minute".
> since there was anything written. I know my buyer didn't go public
another secret person. everything is so secretive with you. everything
> months ago. I didn't need Gus Lopez or any of the others who
yes, some mystery person comes out of the woodwork willing to dump an obscene
my advice is not to spend one dime of that money sweetheart, if you indeed got
> real beef is the money people are losing for buying the unproduced
blah blah blah... heard it once, heard it a million times.
> When everyone has the opportunity to see all the documentation
as mr. bill would say: "oh, no!"
i guess the jig is up fellas. time for us to move on.
> On top of that they will all be demanding their money back. As a
actually, if i'm not mistaken, all those guys committed suicide waiting for a
> Different people tried to tell them and they wouldn't have it. It
one phone call? we FLEW there to see stuff, babe! twice!
> rest. They consider themselves to be experts and they probably have seen a
i think that one seinfeld episode paraphrased this kind of talk pretty well:
"yadda yadda yadda"
> and pieces of which I might add isn't exactly accurate. Going back to
duh. but ask him the right question and he might give you the right answer.
> Ertel. Mr. Black said they would never sell molds, 4 up hardcopies or
as gus pointed out, this stuff was often given away because they didn't care
again, ask mr. black not whether or not kenner sold the stuff, but whether or
> Kenner is also aware a lot of their new stuff is walking out the
kenner cares about current product. do not attempt to mix facts here. you
isn't the horse dead enough? must we beat it forever?
with all that's been laid out on the table, does anybody actually believe this
-chris
Salfamily
>I see you guys are very far behind on the news. My figures have
BWWWHAAAA HA HA HA BWWWHAAAAA HAHAHA BWWWWHAAAA HAHAHA!!!!!
>As far as 4 up hardcopies and prototypes, unless your friends have a
Stuff that was thrown away 15 years ago is Kenner property? Things the company
And what happened to the stance that all these prototypes were fakes? Ms.
> I even had to get a release from Kenner before I could finalize the sale of
I hope you realize this was pointless.
>As far as my figures go, I must have found one of those very, very, very
BWWWHAAA HA HA HA BWHAAAA HA HA HA BWWWAAAA HA HA HA!!!
>What newspaper are you talking about?? As far as I know, it's been quite
Considering we got an "invitation" on the 13th of February, warning us of an
>because part of the conditions of the sale was for her to remain
how suprising. Ms. Brooks still has yet to show a single iota of evidence that
>Which as far as I know, that has been honored. They were sold almost
This contradicts entirely with what has been said over the last 4 months.
>Kenner and the Original Engineer and all the documentation.
Did you sell them to Bigfoot and the Lochness Monster, or are there other
>They are being falsely advertised and sold via the Internet to
On the contrary, the internet has been one of the few places where accurate
>When everyone has the opportunity to see all the documentation
....still waiting.....
> Actually there are two investigations going on, one inside Kenner
Once again, she's confusing Hasbro's recent concern with the prototype market
This affair has seen a constant willingness to misrepresents the facts on Ms.
ron
Brennan Swain
Virginia Jarvis Brooks so eloquently wrote:
Why is this just coming out now if they were sold 4 months ago?? As
>I won't give the details because you guys wouldn't believe
Yea, because it was probably $10
>As far as 4 up hardcopies and prototypes, unless your friends have
If Kenner is policing the sale and distribution of prototypes then why
>Tell Gus to call Jim Black in Cincinnati and ask him if my letter of
How in the world would they know that?? Do they have undercover men
>As far as my figures go, I must have found one of those very, very,
If she really is considering legal action why in the world would she
> My real beef is the money people are losing for buying the unproduced
When and how will this happen???
> On top of that they will all be demanding their money back. As a
How in the world did a "class" of unproduced micro prototype buyers all
> Different people tried to tell them and they wouldn't have it. It
Documentation, engineers, engineers, documentation...when can we see
> Kenner is also aware a lot of their new stuff is walking out the
If this woman really had legal action pending, or was about to file an
see ya,
Lech Burakowski
You know Gus,
Adam
Star Wars Trading Cards
Lech Burakowski wrote:
> Adam
The funniest part of that whole offer by Gus (to eat a proof card), is
Cathy
woods01
> Virginia Jarvis Brooks so eloquently wrote:
After reading this latest email and the many responses, it seems pretty
Its been well discussed how effortlessly she shrugs off any evidence of
Her declarations seem geared to get a response. ie that what Ron Salvatore
Every step of the way VGB avoids naming anyone, offering up physical
All these evasive steps suggest nothing more than a big dumb joke. I
-John
BTW this soap opera is amusing stuff to read.
Black Lodge
Hello,
Is it just me or does the whole tone and situation of VJB reek of the
Ross
Michael Mierzwa
> Questions/thoughts from the first letter...
Good question. But she still sends her questions, I just think she
> 3. She continually points to the "Original Engineer" that will
Yup. I think she should help people follow her steps. If she phoned
Of course, her "Original Engineer" sure sounds like a "Deep Throat" of
Virginia, if you are reading ... please give us one name ... just one
> Second letter...
Agreed, attacks like that really destroy any value of her arguements ...
> Third letter...
Interesting, I hadn't searched that far after seeing her personal
The funny thing is I would never have thought there to be such a demand
> 3. In reference to the Sansweet prototypes on "the web site" -
How to determine metal through a picture? Easy grab the nearest android
She can still make educated guesses based on previous knowledge, but I
Michael Mierzwa
Jeremy Moran
Hey ron, congratulations! Your "friend" seems to have graduated from
You know, she COULD settle this ones and for all by giving us the name
Salfamily
>Its been well discussed how effortlessly she shrugs off any evidence of
Well, you'll like this one. Yesterday, Ms. Brooks emailed me and told me to
I'd also like to point out that she repeatedly speaks of the figures as still
Anyway, take it as you will:
Why don't you post this on your board for everyone to read as well. Let's
First, how can you claim to be a honest replicator when you are making
Well now I'll talk about the figures I have. First, I've never discussed
Why don't you post this.... tell them it's another "love letter"
Virginia Jarvis Brooks
----------------------------
ron
Vu Nguyen
It is so obvious that this lady has major problems.(snip...)
> you understand what unproduced means? Exactly that. It doesn't exist.
I don't think it's the Secret Service that goes about checking counterfeit money.
I would comment on the rest, but it gets repetitive. She wants proof, but Ms.
Michael Cherone
On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Vu Nguyen wrote:
nope, you're dead wrong. the secret service was founded initially to
HTH
Mike
Click here for part 4 of this thread.
as to the our correctness in this matter. I apologize for the long post, but
there is alot of gray area that needs coloring up.
ron
March 6 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
> and asked for the name and phone number of the "Original Engineer" or
> toy designer (which I think is a more appropriate name ... I'm biased of
> course I'm an Engineer of the Hoover Dam type ... that is my toys are
with the concept and what the toy will look like and how it will function.
the engineers are responsible for working out the details about what kind of
plastic to use, how to mount the electronics, how to design the necessary
motion (if it has any) and so forth. then there are modelmakers who take the
designer's idea (and possible mock-ups) and make other or better mock-ups of
the toy by hand. the sculptors are the ones that do all the "organic" stuff
like humanoids and more natural looking playsets and such. people in the model
shop also "pattern" the mechanical-looking items. this includes machining
components and such. in general, they do for mechanical stuff what the
sculptors do for the organic stuff.
had that big get-together at the cincinnati "men behind the masks" show in
december. kenner had a booth set up there all day and it was filled with the
people on the star wars team. this is in addition to the other kenner people
that some of us have had face-to-face contact with.
whole case lies on some incomplete paperwork she has from one engineer. one
engineer that only knows where the production items were sent for manufacture,
not one that remembers all the work going on behing the scenes on the micro
stuff for 1983 - the stuff that got canned.
March 6 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
> Confused yet? Bored yet? :^)
material in black and white to read twice or three times to understand.
March 8 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
already been sold. I won't give the details because you guys wouldn't
believe the amount I actually did get for them. As far as 4 up hardcopies
and prototypes, unless your friends have a release from Kenner, then they
have Kenner property in their collections. I even had to get a release
from Kenner before I could finalize the sale of my figures. Tell Gus to
call Jim Black in Cincinnati and ask him if my letter of release really
came from Kenner. I can assure you that Kenner knows exactly who has their
property and how they got it. As far as my figures go, I must have
found one of those very, very, very limited numbers of people you were
talking about because they are sold. I am thrilled with the offer they made.
What newspaper are you talking about?? As far as I know, it's been quite
time since there was anything written. I know my buyer didn't go public
because part of the conditions of the sale was for her to remain
anonymous. Which as far as I know, that has been honored.
others who consider themselves to be experts for that matter because of the
class of people that this reached. They weren't interested in anything anyone
had to say other than Kenner and the Original Engineer and all the documentation.
My real beef is the money people are losing for buying the unproduced micro
figures. They are being falsely advertised and sold via the Internet
to people who believe what they are being told by these persons who claim
to be experts. When everyone has the opportunity to see all the documentation
there is, they will never believe all those top authority people again.
On top of that they will all be demanding their money back. As a
matter of fact, there is a group of people considering a class action suit
over those unproduced figures right now. These guys brought it on themselves.
Different people tried to tell them and they wouldn't have it. It certainly
had to have been worth one phone call to put the matter to rest. They consider
themselves to be experts and they probably have seen a lot of collectibles,
but they didn't have to be so close-minded without seeing any of the documentation.
All their proof is what Kenner employees and exemployees have told them. Those
guys couldn't authorize anything and they certainly did not have access to the
original engineer's records. If they did they would have been able to tell you
the whole story instead of bits and pieces of which I might add isn't exactly
accurate. Going back to those 4 up hardcopies and prototypes, one idiot
tried to convince me they came from a sale at Kenner in the early 90's.
I called Jim Black at Kenner and he said that was completely untrue. They
never sell to the public and the only thing they sold at that sale was model
kits and to a company named Ertel. Mr. Black said they would never sell
molds, 4 up hardcopies or prototypes to the public. That they are Kenner
property and should have never left their facility. That sale would probably
be believable to people who have no way of calling anyone at Kenner to verify
that fact.
They have had an investigation going on to put a stop to this and some
other things as well. Actually there are two investigations going on, one
inside Kenner and one outside to make sure the one inside isn't biased
for any reason.
An Here is my reply to her.
you to sell? If so then did you sell Kenner property? Are you the only
person to get such a release from Kenner to sell their items?
When the orginal line was being made they threw everything into the
trash at Kenner. Many employees would fish the stuff out on the
dumpters as Keepsakes. That is how you got your figures and how alot
of the other figures got out. It is rather sad the Kenner did not keep
this stuff so that now I or others could go and see it and enjoy the
figures for what they are. Now your figures are in a private
collection and will never be seen to see what you are talking about.
As far as fakes go I would only buy items of that type from people
that I know and trust and in this hobby you must watch for people
trying to make a quick buck. People who only buy things to resale
without any interest at all in the item themselves
should stay out of the hobby as far as I am concerned as they only
cause prices to raise to crazy levels. 6 years ago you could get moxt
of the 100 dollar figures for 10 bucks now the price has risen to the
absured level as far as I am concerned. Thank goodness I got mine at
2.98 from TRU 20 years ago.
figures. I would just hope that you move on and go too another hobby
and try and make money off it.
is a Scapler selling proto's . Though I doubt she will every find any
other figures as she is not very well connected too former Kenner
employees. An really doesn't know how many of this type of item are in Former
Kenner employees hands.
March 8 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
>I see you guys are very far behind on the news. My figures have already
>been sold. I won't give the details because you guys wouldn't believe
>the amount I actually did get for them.
hundreds of thousands of dollars. I eagerly await some proof of your
claims.
>release from Kenner, then they have Kenner property in their collections.
belonged to Kenner as they were byproducts from subcontracters. Some
items were taken home by employees in an acceptable and open fashion,
years before the company ever had a policy about it. Some were given away
by Kenner reps at events such as Toy Fair.
>of my figures. Tell Gus to call Jim Black in Cincinnati and ask him if
>my letter of release really came from Kenner.
granted you permission to sell (what you claim is) their property.
>sale was for her to remain anonymous. Which as far as I know, that has
>been honored. They were sold almost 4 months ago.
worth ("hundreds of thousands of dollars") but I eagerly await your
*proof* that I am wrong.
$200,000 for 300 unpainted *produced* micro collection figures from a
single buyer.
>micro figures. They are being falsely advertised and sold via the
>Internet to people who believe what they are being told by these persons
>who claim to be experts.
Bespin Torture Chamber were never produced and that a conspiracy of
collectors (including myself) is behind their existence.
>they will never believe all those top authority people again.
communists in the State Department..." Wonderful. Let's see the
documentation!
>action suit over those unproduced figures right now. These guys brought
>it on themselves.
let me guess...that's "secret" too. Who are they suing? There just
aren't that many unproduced micro figures around... to really warrant a
lawsuit, but feel free to prove me wrong on this too.
>rest. They consider themselves to be experts and they probably have seen
>a lot of collectibles, but they didn't have to be so close-minded without
>seeing any of the documentation.
chance--post it to the net!
course, we have loads of information beyond just interviews with Kenner
people.
>access to the original engineer's records
original engineer". There are lots of engineers who work at Kenner and
who worked on the Micro Collection. No offense aimed at Kenner engineers,
but engineers have a very specific role in the production of the toys.
They design such things as joints, movement of parts, and mechanisms for
toys. Engineers are not the lead on the overall production and management
of a toy line, and they do not make marketing decisions. And there isn't
just one engineer who has complete visibility on an entire product as
large as the Micro Collection.
others at Kenner who worked on the Micro Collection.
>other things as well. Actually there are two investigations going on,
>one inside Kenner and one outside to make sure the one inside isn't
>biased for any reason.
concerned about prototypes of their *current* line getting out. They
don't want information getting out before they've had a chance to present
it to buyers and they don't want competing toy companies to steal their
ideas.
confused by your outrageous claims. My impression was that they were led
to believe that collectors were making replicas of their current toys in
tremendous numbers and competing with their products. Kenner doesn't even
have the license for micro sized Star Wars toys! I believe that when
Kenner gets to the bottom of this, you're most likely going to look like
one sinister, scheming individual who misled corporations for petty,
ulterior motives.
response back from you saying "call so and so" or "it's a secret" but that
only serves to convince us that your information is total hogwash and that
you are acting out a petty vendetta against Steve Sansweet and many others
in the collecting community who disagree with your claim that your little
"find" is "worth" $100,000's.
March 8 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
March 8 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
> I believe it's impossible that you got what you claimed these pieces were
> worth ("hundreds of thousands of dollars") but I eagerly await your
> *proof* that I am wrong.
> $200,000 for 300 unpainted *produced* micro collection figures from a
> single buyer.
who has created some sort of on-line personae and is just trying to stir
trouble? I mean I've not heard of any proof. She seems to operate
through several different voices and won't post, just email people. She
has no problem about questioning the motives of others, but avoids
questions to her own background. Sure this all could be real, but if
you think about it for a minute she is really sounding more like she is
making everything up just to get some attention with the good folks at
home.
-although stranger people are know to exist :(
March 8 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
>worth ("hundreds of thousands of dollars") but I eagerly await your
>*proof* that I am wrong.
>$200,000 for 300 unpainted *produced* micro collection figures from a
>single buyer.
true, watching Gus eat a proof card would be fun. :-)
Scottie
March 8 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
evidence", sort-o-speak? Nobody can prove VB had them, and nobody nows
where they went. Very suspecious!
RACER
(At least this might come to an end!)
March 8 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
> I see you guys are very far behind on the news. My figures have
> already been sold. I won't give the details because you guys wouldn't
> have Kenner property in their collections. I even had to get a release
> from Kenner before I could finalize the sale of my figures. Tell Gus to
stuff and they surely wouldn't need to "release" it to anybody. they did that
when they gave it away.
> found one of those very, very, very limited numbers of people you were
> talking about because they are sold. I am thrilled with the offer they
> because part of the conditions of the sale was for her to remain
> anonymous. Which as far as I know, that has been honored. They were
except the proof we put on the web.
> consider themselves to be experts for that matter because of the class of
> people that this reached. They weren't interested in anything anyone had to
> say other than Kenner and the Original Engineer and all the documentation.
amount of money on something they know nothing about. yes siree, that's some
"class" of person.
it. which i highly doubt. especially after everyone gets the letters we sent
out. who knows, maybe when the associated press prints a retraction, your
buyer will see it and start asking some real questions. the first one being
"are you going to give me a refund or do i sue you out of house an home?"
> micro figures. They are being falsely advertised and sold via the Internet
> to people who believe what they are being told by these persons who claim
> to be experts.
> there is, they will never believe all those top authority people
> again.
> matter of fact, there is a group of people considering a class action suit
> over those unproduced figures right now.
comet to take them to salvation...
> certainly had to have been worth one phone call to put the matter to
> lot of collectibles, but they didn't have to be so close-minded without
> seeing any of the documentation. All their proof is what Kenner employees
> and ex employees have told them. Those guys couldn't authorize anything and
> they certainly did not have access to the original engineer's records.
> those 4 up hardcopies and prototypes, one idiot tried to convince me
> they came from a sale at Kenner in the early 90's. I called Jim Black at
> Kenner and he said that was completely untrue. They never sell to the
ask him if 4-ups ever existed and if it was possible that they were taken home
by employees. oh yeah, you really can't do this though virginia, honey
because you tried to tell us via email that kenner didn't sculpt at 4:1. or
are you forgetting this stuff?
> prototypes to the public. That they are Kenner property and should
> have never left their facility. That sale would probably be believable
about it. today, it is a different story, but not 15 years ago.
not it was created and used and ultimately "disposed" of whether it be thrown
out or given away. because if it was created then the possibility exists that
it is still in existence - which much of it still is, because the photo
evidence we have proves it.
> door. They have had an investigation going on to put a stop to this and some
> other things as well. Actually there are two investigations going on,
> one inside Kenner and one outside to make sure the one inside isn't biased
> forany reason.
are really good about mixing facts. it is true kenner doesn't want current
prototypes to leave their hands and that they have had problems with it.
however, we're talking about 15-20 year old prototypes from an extint toy line
here.
lady?
March 9 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
>already been sold. I won't give the details because you guys wouldn't
>believe the amount I actually did get for them.
>release from Kenner, then they have Kenner property in their collections.
willingly gave to employees and allowed them to take home with them is now
Kenner property? Get real. If Kenner was so concerned about saving it, they
wouldn't have thrown it out in the first place. This stuff was honestly taken
and saved, primarily by people who had a fondness for the items they worked on
and helped develop. One has to remember that this is prior to the boom in the
prototype market. Prototypes have defintely been illegally taken from Kenner
against their wishes, but this has been a 90's phenomenon.
Brooks constantly changes her point of view as she realizes that key things she
holds to are totally incorrect. Her argument has now been whittled down to a
claim of illegal ownership.
my figures
>limited numbers of people you were talking about because they are sold. I am
thrilled with the offer they made.
>time since there was anything written
impending media attack, this sounds like complete and total bullshit. I would
say she's lying now to save face.
>anonymous.
would prove her claims. She makes accusations and launches personal attacks,
while hiding behind this veil of secrecy, which, unfortunately, has probably
persuaded some to take her seriously.
>4 months ago.
buyers who hinge their purchases on such vague concepts?
>people who believe what they are being told by these persons who claim
>to be experts.
information has been available on things like this, and its there because there
are people on the net who truly and honestly care about it, and who are willing
to spend their time documenting it all.
>and one outside to make sure the one inside isn't biased for any reason.
for a concern with 80s pieces that they have no reason to worry about. All that
stuff is water under the bridge and the only people caring about it are the
collectors.
Brooks' part, as well as a manipulation of how she is presenting those "facts"
to the various people she has been in touch with. I suspect she has run into
more opposition during the course of her crusade than she has affirmation of
her outrageous claims. She just doesn't talk about it. The bits of info she
*can* manipulate into something that *sounds* beneficial to her cause, she
plays up, and then hides from the burden of defending its validity by throwing
up all this anonymous crap.
March 9 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
> I see you guys are very far behind on the news. My figures have
> already been sold.
much as she likes to say NA, NA, NA, NA, NA, NA, I would think that this
news would have hit the next day!
> the amount I actually did get for them.
>a release from Kenner, then they have Kenner property in their collections.
>I even had to get a release from Kenner before I could finalize the sale of
>my figures.
in the world would some mother of four from Florida be getting any
special treatment??? Why would you get a release, and the rest of us
prototype owners have to watch our backs for the "Kenner prototype brute
squad"?
>release really came from Kenner. I can assure you that Kenner knows exactly
>who has their property and how they got it.
with black jackets and ray ban sunglasses scouring the earth for the
sales of unauthorized Kenner prototypes, or does each prototype have a
little homing device implanted therein?
>very limited numbers of people you were talking about because they are
>sold. I am thrilled with the offer they made.
>What newspaper are you talking about?? As far as I know, it's been quite
> time since there was anything written. I know my buyer didn't go public
> because part of the conditions of the sale was for her to remain
> anonymous. Which as far as I know, that has been honored. They were sold almost
> 4 months ago. I didn't need Gus Lopez or any of the others who
> consider themselves to be experts for that matter because of the class
>of people that this reached. They weren't interested in anything anyone
>had to say other than Kenner and the Original Engineer and all the documentation.
sell some of the best evidence she has for the case. Who is your
lawyer? I guess you haven't been given very good advice, or maybe all
of this legal action is just a big sham. Hmmm, I think maybe she's
trying to harrass some people.
> micro figures. They are being falsely advertised and sold via the Internet
> to people who believe what they are being told by these persons who claim
> to be experts. When everyone has the opportunity to see all the
> documentation there is, they will never believe all those top authority people
> again.
> matter of fact, there is a group of people considering a class action
> suit over those unproduced figures right now. These guys brought it
> on themselves.
manage to get in touch with each other in order to decide on a class
action suit? Or how did one buyer who wants to initiate the suit get
the word out to other buyers without the heart of the SW collecting
community finding out about it. Or more to the point, how did Virginia
find out about this inside info? Man, I've actually had some unproduced
micros offered to me lately, maybe I should buy one and join the class
action suit ;^)
> certainly had to have been worth one phone call to put the matter to
> rest. They consider themselves to be experts and they probably have seen
> a lot of collectibles, but they didn't have to be so close-minded without
> seeing any of the documentation. All their proof is what Kenner employees
> and ex employees have told them. Those guys couldn't authorize anything
> and they certainly did not have access to the original engineer's records.
> If they did they would have been able to tell you the whole story instead
> of bits and pieces of which I might add isn't exactly accurate. Going back
> to those 4 up hardcopies and prototypes, one idiot tried to convince me
> they came from a sale at Kenner in the early 90's. I called Jim Black at
> Kenner and he said that was completely untrue. They never sell to the public
> and the only thing they sold at that sale was model kits and to a company
> named Ertel. Mr. Black said they would never sell molds, 4 up hardcopies or
> prototypes to the public. That they are Kenner property and should have
> never left their facility. That sale would probably be believable to
> people who have no way of calling anyone at Kenner to verify that fact.
some of this, or do you have to keep that a secret for the legal actions
that may soon be pending?
> door. They have had an investigation going on to put a stop to this and
> some other things as well. Actually there are two investigations going on,
> one inside Kenner and one outside to make sure the one inside isn't biased
> for any reason.
action, there is no way she would be saying anything to anybody. She
would keep her mouth shut and let her lawyers handle the rest. This is
all just someone trying to justify a situation in which she knows she is
wrong. Although, its beginning to seem to me that she has talked
herself into believing her own story...a story in which she doesn't have
the knowledge to be making any statements. It should be interesting to
see how this all works out. Keep us updated guys.
Brennan
March 9 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
you could always give ME the proof card instead ;)
March 9 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
> You know Gus, you could always give ME the proof card instead ;)
that she probably has no idea how significant a statement that is. Heck,
now she'll probably be saying Gus is manufacturing 'fake' proof cards to
support some new SW diet craze.
March 10 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
> I see you guys are very far behind on the news. My figures have
> already been sold.
clear to me that VJB or whoever you really are, is nothing more than a
troll and a very good troll at that.
unproduced micro that is provided by several notable collectors. No
document and no kenner employee is good enough for VJB. VJB only stands
by her one engineer, which funny enough, she never mentions by name. Nor
names any of these concerned executives, or other collectors who are
launching a law suit over a few dozen prototypes worth only about as much
as a lawyer will cost.
is doing is counterfeiting and after everyone agreed what she had was worth
about $5-10, she says she sold her stuff months ago for more than anyone
will believe. Of course this mystery buyer remains anonymous, no price is
given and convienently removes her "real" prototypes from her hands and
any chance to prove their authenticity. Its now this buyer's problem.
evidence, or trying to discuss things, plus she avoids the newsgroup
all together. Which is a funny thing to do, afterall, rasscv and toy shop
are probably the two biggest places to deal in vintage SW.
remember years ago on the Star Wars FIDO Net area (an old BBS discussion
place, kinda like rass) someone posted a long message about how George
Lucas ripped off an old 30s movie. A reel was discovered and George was
now in the process of bribing everyone in the know to keep quiet. After
a week of pointless arguing the poster admitted it was a big joke and
that's what I think VGB is.
March 10 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
all too familiar sociopathic troll? She is the one refuting Gus, Ron
etc. so the burden is on her to PROVE her claims. I relish the day when
all the mystery people and paper work come to light for what they really
are. If one word could describe her in the nicest light it's
disillusioned.
March 10 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
> 1. Why did she send questions for the letter writer to ask
> people here that are supposed to prove her points? Why not
> come here and ask them herself?
doesn't really want to have to answer questions ... just ask them.
> substantiate everything she says.
> After all, she makes it a point to say how easy
> it was to contact the person. Obviously then, there should
> be no worry about protecting his identity. I'd WANT the
> added weight of putting a name with a title. The only reason
> to hide a name would be fear that the person is not the real
> "Original Engineer" or you don't want the other side to be
> able to present their side to the actual person who could
> then totally destroy "all of her proof."
people then she should give us their emails, address, or phone numbers.
At the very least she should let the people whom she is directly trying
to discredit have a chance to do this.
the impending KennerGate crisis. ;)
name.
> 1. This is a really damaging letter. It may not necessarily
> damage her 'proof' since she has not really brought any
> forward. The part that is damaging is that she is stooping
> to a personal level to attack her 'opponent'. This gives me
> the feeling that she is no longer dealing with this with
> a clear mind ... that this is no longer a cause for 'justice'
> but more of a cause for revenge or soothing anger. People
> in that state of mind are capable of anything.
it shouldn't, but it does blow her credibility.
[snip]
> The question that is begging is this...if the line was halted
> and the figures should not have come off the paper, why is it
> that packaging photography and hardcopy 4-ups were created?
> Obviously, some level of actual work was done for future
> product which contradicts the idea that only discussion had
> taken place. Shouldn't the real Original Engineer know the
> the difference between discussions and actual work being done.
attack, but I think it is possible that in her mind letter #1 defends
her stuff and #3 attacks or accuses other's prototypes as false.
or market for the micro collection figures ... over say proof cards and
other things. :/
> "None of the numbers on the unproduced figures were authorized
> by him and there was no one else with authority that could have.
> They aren't even the same metal or process as the Kenner Micro's."
> My question here is how can someone determine what metal that
> Sansweet's prototypes are through a web picture? For all
> of her cries of "hearsay", isn't someone's opinion of
> metal content through a picture without examining the
> actual piece just that?
or engineer with a hair clip turned visor and ask them. :)
would think that if she had the knowledge she would of told us the basis
of her guesses. I'd have to see what she was talking about, but tons of
metal minature collectors can guess the difference between the old lead
based mm's and the newer pewter mixed ones. Of course it would be fun
to grab her Kenner standard and the one she thinks is not and compare
them first hand.
March 10 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
simple troll status and moved her way up to STALKER! Yes, she seems
rather obsessed with you and ruining your credibility, doesn't she?
Sounds like a stalker to me. That or it's a mild crush.
and phone number of this Original Engineer she seems to have in her back
pocket. But what are the chances of THAT happening?
March 11 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
>unproduced micro that is provided by several notable collectors. No
>document and no kenner employee is good enough for VJB. VJB only stands
>by her one engineer, which funny enough, she never mentions by name. Nor
>names any of these concerned executives, or other collectors who are
>launching a law suit over a few dozen prototypes worth only about as much
>as a lawyer will cost.
look at the article featuring my name posted on Sir Steve's page. "And make
sure Lopez sees this too," she added. I responded back with the URL of my
response (posted on the same page, I might add) along with the words "old
news." I got the below message today, which I post only because she asks me to.
I find it suprising that she challenges me to take my letter "public" and to
play "fair," when this letter has been sent to newspapers, the Associated
Press, LFL and Hasbro; and been posted both on Sir Steve's page and on usenet.
being in her possession. This contradicts her saying earlier that she had sold
them.
_______________________________________
Ron,
see if you can play fair in public.
molds of unauthorized star wars figures to resell? Do you have written
permission from Kenner and/or Lucasfilm to do this? Of course the
unproduced figures did not come from Kenner but you are making them in the
likeness of Star Wars and are claiming they really originated from a
"real" Kenner unproduced micro figure.I don't hardly think that would be
doable since in actuality it's making a fake using a fake as a model. Do
you understand what unproduced means? Exactly that. It doesn't exist.
Why don't you just "honestly replicate" five dollar bills and see if the
Secret Service considers that a honest replication or fraud and
counterfeiting. Oh I forgot, it's not fraud if you tell everybody up front
what you're doing right unless you have specific and legal written
permission to do so? Your justification of producing unproduced micro
figures is just hilarious. Do you really believe that because you have
convinced yourself that your intentions were good, that somehow makes it
legal? Next, you are telling everyone to go look through The Star Wars
Collector's Archives for all your proof and documentation to back what you
are saying. All I see there is a lot of Kenner property with descriptions
written by you and others. I don't see a single piece of documentation in
the form of a release from Kenner saying those pieces belong to you or how
you got them. Why don't you post that information next to each picture
proving how you got them. A 4 up hardcopy or first shot and test shot and
similar pieces are not your average piece that anyone can go to the store
and buy. That would make a very nice and convincing and believable display.
Don't you have any documentation to go with them? If you could do that,
then even I might start to say, hey maybe this guy does know what he's
talking about. So far all I've seen is pictures and descriptions of what
different people have in their collections and things written like how many
other collectors and ex employees have given you the information. Not a
single documented thing. Why? Can't you produce any from a legitimate
source?
my figures with you that I can recall. When I viewed your website, I
thought it was a complete joke. I didn't want your opinion and never asked
for it because I didn't trust your opinion when I could see viewing your
website that you did not have any real documentation for those things,
only years of collecting and what some ex employees told you. The only
thing I've contacted you about is the unproduced figures that I have made
claims are fake and statements that are easily proven. And they will be
when the time is right. It won't be by what some ex employee told me
either. The biggest part of my proof is notarized and came straight from
the original engineer of the project. You didn't try to show me anything
to prove they were real (the unproduced figures) because you don't have any
proof. Employees and ex employees giving their opinions and what they
think they saw while they worked at Kenner is not proof of anything in my
opinion. I want to see written documentation. That's proof, not heresay.
Bottom line, gossip, hearsay and opinions (unless by the proper person in
authority) don't count. Only legal notarized documentation will stand and
be considered by qualified people. All else is junk and is discarded. You
have never seen any of the documentation I have. You have never seen my
figures. You have never talked to the original engineer of the micro
collection. You have never seen any of the records that exist for the
micro collection and there are many. You have given expert opinions and
have told a lot of things about me and my figures that you are going to
have a very difficult time explaining and proving because they simply are
not true. And I am going to prove it. I think you have made a complete
fool of yourself after reading what you have posted about all of this on
the Internet. If you could honestly post everything I've mentioned above
and say you have seen everything I have, then you might have had a legal
stand to post what you did. Your opinion wasn't asked for in the first
place because I do not consider a person who has been a collector for many
years and has top items in his private collection that the average
collector can't ever own, an expert just because he knows and has talked to
several employees and ex employees. He may be knowledgeable in some areas
but not an expert and that's the reason I never asked for your opinion. Do
you hold a degree like the original engineer does? Do you have the
credentials to offer all this expert advice you give and be able to give
notarized documents to support your claims and opinions? Obviously you
don't or I'm sure they would be posted. Well you are discounting the word
and documentation of the only man who does on the micro collection without
even talking to him and seeing all of his records. Is that a real expert
thing to do?? You've been too busy trying to convince everybody you're an
expert. Well prove it. You are affiliated with a major website. Show us
all your written documentation and proof from all the qualified engineers
of all the different lines you are showing. Skip all the stuff ex
employees told you. Show us the real documentation. Is there any? One
last thing. I have a release from Kenner to own my figures. It is signed
by James R. Black, SVP of licensing. Can you or any of your friends say
you have a release from a Kenner Authority for any of the pieces you have
in your private collections that should have never left the Kenner
facility? I had to have one to prove legal ownership. How many do you
have? I think it's real funny that in your words, "my dollar figures"
even have notarized documentation from the original engineer and a
release from Kenner officials. And you say they're worth a dollar each so
does that mean all yours are worth 2 cents because you have neither
notarized documentation or a release?? Every time you open your mouth,
you prove what kind of an expert you are. And to make things even funnier,
you have posted everybody you feel who owes you a complete retraction and
apology. Do you think you're in the movies or what?
March 11 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
> Why don't you just "honestly replicate" five dollar bills and see if the
> Secret Service considers that a honest replication or fraud and
> counterfeiting. Oh I forgot, it's not fraud if you tell everybody up front
> what you're doing right unless you have specific and legal written
> permission to do so?
Maybe the FBI. And although people may notice, you can get away with it. Check
out the painter who paints money but signs his name to it. He pays for meals with
money he drew and tells people that it is money that he made and most of the time,
people accept his 'art' as payment. The FBI did arrest him, but it looks like they
might not have a case.
Brooks has yet to show any herself. I think shes bitter that there are people out
there who have it really together when it comes to vintage SW stuff and she can't
accept that. It's a good thing that people like you and Gus are around to disprove
this lady.
my $0.02
March 11 1998
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc
> I don't think it's the Secret Service that goes about checking counterfeit money.
> Maybe the FBI. And although people may notice, you can get away with it. Check
detect and prevent counterfieting.
Back
to VJB article